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THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby litesong » Mon 31 Oct 2016, 14:48:57

Revi wrote:Deep in the mud and slime of things, even there, something sings.


However, you can't hear it over the noise of 200+HP gas or diesel engines. Best to hear the singing while driving an electric vehicle.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby litesong » Thu 03 Nov 2016, 19:47:24

StarvingLion wrote:.... these fools believe diesel = worthless, batteries = priceless


Diesel ain't worthless. They make great quantities of pollution... specially if you have a vehicle manufacturer who illegally works to increase its pollution.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby Revi » Wed 09 Nov 2016, 12:11:26

litesong wrote:
Revi wrote:Deep in the mud and slime of things, even there, something sings.


However, you can't hear it over the noise of 200+HP gas or diesel engines. Best to hear the singing while driving an electric vehicle.


We have been driving small NEV electric vehicles for about 10 years now, and they work fine. I don't think our culture is willing to accept them, because we are all conditioned to think we need to drive a gigantic truck to get a quart of milk.

The fact is that they could be a great way to get around, but the only ones doing it are us weirdos.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 09 Nov 2016, 12:27:02

I thought this was good news:

https://electrek.co/2016/11/07/toyota-l ... s-failing/

Toyota is planning long-range battery-powered electric cars for 2020 as its hydrogen fuel cells cars are failing

Now a new report this morning coming from Japan’s Nikkei (via Reuters) claims that Toyota is planning to invest in a team in early 2017 to develop an electric car with a range of “more than 300 km (186 miles) on a single charge” and ready to hit the market by 2020.

It would be Toyota’s first all-electric battery-powered vehicle developed in-house.

I'm glad to see Toyota finally come into the BEV fray. This should be good for the consumer and the industry, given Toyota's quality and engineering reputation.

With things changing so fast though, this gives me pause on getting the Prius Prime "for the principle of the thing".

Probably better to drive my 2015 Corolla (under 4000 miles a year) and let it depreciate, and take a look again in 2021, at what is available, cost, charging, quality, range, practicality, etc. for EV's. By then hopefully there will be tons of choices, and we'll see how the supply of charge points is stacking up compared to rising demand from those wanting to charge while on trips.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 09 Nov 2016, 12:49:09

I have a probably stupid question. Germane to this thread as my interest in solar power is to be able to drive a car in EV mode at some point with pure solar electricity, so I can take nice country drives fairly guilt free (like I used to before realizing how serious AGW was).

I'm leery about a solar roof. Punching many holes in a new roof seems contrary to logic (and the warranty) to me. Also the direction of my roof, pitch of my roof, etc. isn't great for solar tiles.

So, as an alternative, I wonder about putting solar panels in my back yard, which is in mostly full sun about 80% of the time, including the entire strong afternoon sun part.

It seems to me that a group of panels sitting in the back where I can easily clean them, brush snow off of them, etc. would be workable in my fenced in back yard in a quiet, peaceful, safe, neighborhood.

And I could pick what is optimal for me in terms of cost and solar production WITHOUT any roof worries or constraints.

I would expect it to be quite awhile before new huge trees to the west of me could foil this plan by creating shade in my yard in the PM - no guarantees, but yes, thought of that). Oh, and I don't care if the next owner isn't crazy about it when it comes time to sell (hopefully in 2 or 3 decades -- I hope to die in my current house). In 20 years, they should more than pay for themselves, and there would still be plenty of yard for, say, kids.

...

Down the road I might like to do the Powerwall thing, etc. but for now just the panels and generating some green electricity is fine, and then when I'm ready for an EV, I'm all set.

Anyone with relevant experience in Solar that can opine on whether I'm missing key obvious factors? Like if a neighbor kid hits a standard PHV solar panel with a baseball, does the panel break, etc? Or are stupid government regulations a likely factor? etc?

Thanks
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby AdamB » Wed 09 Nov 2016, 21:05:16

Revi wrote:
litesong wrote:
Revi wrote:Deep in the mud and slime of things, even there, something sings.


However, you can't hear it over the noise of 200+HP gas or diesel engines. Best to hear the singing while driving an electric vehicle.


We have been driving small NEV electric vehicles for about 10 years now, and they work fine.


But they aren't sufficient for the masses. Now, for the past 5 years, consumers have had real choices, starting with the Volt and Leaf.

Revi wrote:I don't think our culture is willing to accept them, because we are all conditioned to think we need to drive a gigantic truck to get a quart of milk.


Modern plugins and EVs aren't golf carts, and aren't gigantic trucks. Maine folks might be conditioned to drive monster trucks for milk, around here it is bicycles, and enough EVs that we have charging stations all over the place. Free fuel and a dual charger at the local pizza joint no less. Maybe you need to stop trying to convince folks that open air golf carts are the answer, when they know they aren't (particularly somewhere cold like Maine), and get with free charging stations and some subsidies for EVs that really can, and are, replacing those crappy ICE powered monsters.

Revi wrote:The fact is that they could be a great way to get around, but the only ones doing it are us weirdos.


Not in my neighborhood. I see someone in an electric golf cart, sure, they are different, but I've been passed by Volts on the interstate in the middle of Wyoming, there are at least 3 dropping kids off at school, and there are more Leafs around then Volts.

Why do you think that you can't find real EVs or charging stations in Maine? Do people just not care? The things are popping up all over suburbia, been thinking about getting one just because the wife is making me jealous, going months without using gasoline. Including in the winter. Try that in an open air golf cart!
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 13 Nov 2016, 22:41:39

Outcast_Searcher wrote:I have a probably stupid question. Germane to this thread as my interest in solar power is to be able to drive a car in EV mode at some point with pure solar electricity, so I can take nice country drives fairly guilt free (like I used to before realizing how serious AGW was).

I'm leery about a solar roof. Punching many holes in a new roof seems contrary to logic (and the warranty) to me. Also the direction of my roof, pitch of my roof, etc. isn't great for solar tiles.

So, as an alternative, I wonder about putting solar panels in my back yard, which is in mostly full sun about 80% of the time, including the entire strong afternoon sun part.

It seems to me that a group of panels sitting in the back where I can easily clean them, brush snow off of them, etc. would be workable in my fenced in back yard in a quiet, peaceful, safe, neighborhood.

And I could pick what is optimal for me in terms of cost and solar production WITHOUT any roof worries or constraints.

I would expect it to be quite awhile before new huge trees to the west of me could foil this plan by creating shade in my yard in the PM - no guarantees, but yes, thought of that). Oh, and I don't care if the next owner isn't crazy about it when it comes time to sell (hopefully in 2 or 3 decades -- I hope to die in my current house). In 20 years, they should more than pay for themselves, and there would still be plenty of yard for, say, kids.

...

Down the road I might like to do the Powerwall thing, etc. but for now just the panels and generating some green electricity is fine, and then when I'm ready for an EV, I'm all set.

Anyone with relevant experience in Solar that can opine on whether I'm missing key obvious factors? Like if a neighbor kid hits a standard PHV solar panel with a baseball, does the panel break, etc? Or are stupid government regulations a likely factor? etc?

Thanks



You can easily mount solar PV on the ground, it is cheaper and faster than a roof - if you have the space, and don't mind losing it permanently for other purposes.

Roof pitch and exposure is easily dealt with. The panels can be tilted and oriented in the optimal direction, it will simply cost more and take longer on the roof. The change in appearance to your house can be significant as well.

The other consideration is roof age and condition. Most solar panels will last 25 years or more - 35 is probable. It makes no sense to install them on a cheap roof that may only last 20 years, or even a good roof with less than 30 years of expected life. The labor cost to remove and replace the solar panels just to make a roof repair is prohibitive. In my case, I had a 40-year roof that was less than 5 years old - a perfect situation.

The silicon wafers under the clear flexible film are vulnerable to impacts. Plan a fence for ground mounted fixed panels, and expect damage from baseballs or golf balls or stones etc. cast from a mower.

I've had my solar PV roof for 6+ years, no regrets. Also, you don't have to plan this, your solar installer will advise you. The most efficient install is the active tracker, always pointed directly at the sun:
Image
Likely, a couple of these will suffice to power an entire home. Make the pipes a couple of feet taller for using the same space as a dog kennel.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sun 13 Nov 2016, 23:07:39

KaiserJeep wrote:You can easily mount solar PV on the ground, it is cheaper and faster than a roof - if you have the space, and don't mind losing it permanently for other purposes.

...

The most efficient install is the active tracker, always pointed directly at the sun:
Image
Likely, a couple of these will suffice to power an entire home. Make the pipes a couple of feet taller for using the same space as a dog kennel.

THANKS KJ for the great post and all the tips per my non-roof solar query.

Active tracker -- hmmm -- never thought of that. Frownie face on the damage from balls, stones, etc. I was afraid of that.

I'm going to think on it some. For one thing, I'd like to see what prices and reviews say about the new glass based tiles Tesla is plugging (no data yet, just Elon style marketingspeak). I like the idea of putting on a near indestructible solar roof, and being done with it, IF the price isn't prohibitive.

My roof should still have several years left in it, so I have time to mull a bit while things are quickly changing.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby hvacman » Tue 15 Nov 2016, 13:43:49

http://gm-volt.com/2016/11/15/california-celebrates-one-quarter-million-plug-in-cars-sold/



pev_sales

As you’d thus expect, on a market-share basis, California basically crushes the rest of the country. The percentage of PEV sales in the 17.5-million passenger vehicle U.S. market is a slim 0.8 percent more or less.

California last year has exceeded this by nearly five times statewide, and hot spots in California are far above the lower 3 percent state average.

Number one is San Jose, which has bought 9.4 percent plug ins. This is followed by Santa Cruz with 5.8 percent, San Francisco with 5.3 percent, and Eureka at 4.8 percent.


Note that Eureka, CA also had one of the nation's highest EV purchase % rates, at 4.8%. Just a few miles from pstarr's home stomping grounds in Arcata in the heart of the Emerald Triangle. Sounds like many of Pete's neighbors may have invested some of their "ill-gotten gains" to go electric. Grow green to go green!
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 15 Nov 2016, 14:20:17

Interesting hvac. I moved here many years ago because of the green reputation. There really exists a sustainable vision up here, in agriculture, transportation and especially ecological politics. Folks fought long and hard to protect the last old-growth. The salmon restoration work encourages me.

The Schatz Energy Lab at Humboldt State Univ. has been doing solar research since 1989, and that accounts perhaps for the concentration of EV's. Back around 2007 my neighbor sold me his State-of-Art 1997 Volvo 850 station wagon (it only had 12k miles, was his old mothers), and tried in vain to convert his VW Rabbit to EV. The controller didn't seem to fit in well. :cry: The Volvo is doing great. The neighbor is a bit jealous now lol

By the way, I no longer live in that greenest of all pretentious cities. I moved up country to be closer to the agricultural sector lol
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby hvacman » Wed 16 Nov 2016, 11:53:01

Update on the Chevy Bolt EV. Just selected as Motor Trend's 2017 Car of the Year.

Even the folks at Tesla, the electric vehicle masters of the universe, have been put on notice: The Bolt EV sets a benchmark for value and performance they’ll have to work overtime to match. “This is a direct challenge for Tesla to make the Model 3 anything near the Bolt EV for the same price,” executive editor Mark Rechtin said. “Chevrolet has made affordable long-range electric transportation available to the masses. Elon Musk should be afraid. Very, very afraid.”


http://www.motortrend.com/news/chevrolet-bolt-ev-2017-car-of-the-year/

And..

Perhaps the most impressive thing about the Bolt EV is there are no caveats, no “for an electric car” qualifiers needed in any discussion. It is, simply, a world-class small car, and that’s before you factor in the benefits inherent in the smoothness, silence, and instant-on torque provided by the electric motor. The ride is firm and sporty, but transmitted road noise is very well damped. The steering has slightly artificial weighting, but brake feel is natural, and once you learn to use the higher regenerative braking modes, you can pretty much drive all the time without touching the friction brakes at all.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby pstarr » Wed 16 Nov 2016, 13:30:37

There is a lot of brilliance in the vehicle. From the Motortrend piece:
Advancement of Design
The Bolt EV is the sort of tall hatchback you usually see from European and Asian manufacturers. It’s a globally relevant vehicle format that has the potential to deliver excellent interior room for up to five passengers along with a high degree of load-carrying functionality in a relatively compact footprint. And in the Bolt EV, Chevy has delivered. This is one of the best-packaged small cars in the world.

American motor company finally realizing what the world has known for half-a-century . . . Small is Beautiful (Schumacher coined the phrase in the 60's) and finally sexy. Not Tesla but GM

Engineering Excellence
Mounted under the floor and rear seat, the battery is also a structural element, contributing 25 percent of the car’s overall torsional stiffness.
Brilliant. That and the low center of gravity makes this a driving machine.

Efficiency
blah blah blah . . . Level 3 charger . . . blah blah blah

440 volts? Where? Not in my garage.

Safety
Five cross-car beams and a structural steel tray not only add to the overall structural integrity but also protect the battery pack in side impact crashes.
Key to the safety and sale of a small car on American roads. Folks need to feel safe next to semi trucks and pickup boys.

Is the public ready for Small is Beautiful? In the city yes. Suburbs possibly? Exurbs/country? Yeah if they don't have long dangerous difficult commutes in the cold of winter and heat of summer. Hvac, I used to drive a tiny Civic, one of the really early ones, I forget. It was tough with the lower clearance in Pennsylvania winters. Tough with the occasional big truck leerying over me. Now all cars are higher, trucks much higher. Will folks really feel comfortable in a go-cart?

From Motortrend: "The Bolt EV is also a car for a world that’s increasingly urbanized and that needs to reduce its dependency on fossil fuels—partly because there’s only so much we can frack and partly because air quality in our cities is again becoming a significant health issue. But this isn’t some earnest, po-faced science project we should endure to save the planet. The Bolt EV is fast, fun, and genuinely entertaining to drive. It makes you smile."

I wish it has come out a decade earlier, before we blew through our oil :cry:
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby GHung » Wed 16 Nov 2016, 15:04:12

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
KaiserJeep wrote:You can easily mount solar PV on the ground, it is cheaper and faster than a roof - if you have the space, and don't mind losing it permanently for other purposes.

...

The most efficient install is the active tracker, always pointed directly at the sun:
Image
Likely, a couple of these will suffice to power an entire home. Make the pipes a couple of feet taller for using the same space as a dog kennel.

THANKS KJ for the great post and all the tips per my non-roof solar query.

Active tracker -- hmmm -- never thought of that. Frownie face on the damage from balls, stones, etc. I was afraid of that.

I'm going to think on it some. For one thing, I'd like to see what prices and reviews say about the new glass based tiles Tesla is plugging (no data yet, just Elon style marketingspeak). I like the idea of putting on a near indestructible solar roof, and being done with it, IF the price isn't prohibitive.

My roof should still have several years left in it, so I have time to mull a bit while things are quickly changing.


I just came in from washing down my panels; something I do once or twice per year. The recent wildfires here left a bit of ash on the panels, though I've found that soiling doesn't affect output as much as one would think.

Anyway, I have a bit over 3 kW on the flat part of our roof which is easy to access (only 28 inches higher than the back yard). These are fixed arrays. Our original four arrays are tracking, built using re-tasked satellite trackers I got for free or a few dollars (the old C-band dishes; 10-12 foot). The original actuators (motors) were all 24 VDC with built-in east/west limiters. Perfect for PV refit.

Image
Image

The satellite mounts work nicely for non-tracking mounts as well because they are easy to adjust for seasonal elevations. I just removed the old dish from the mount and bolted on some uni-strut to mount the panels on. The array on the right has been producing full power since 1999. Tracking electronics from http://www.theanalogguy.com in BC. These mounts, on sch 80 pipes, have withstood wind gusts in excess of 70 mph.

On the other hand, while tracking can increase output 30%-40%, especially in winter, panels have become so cheap it may make more sense to just add more fixed panels if space allows.

BTW: If you want to take a trip to Miami, sunelec.com is giving away solar roof tiles to the first takers; http://www.sunelec.com . They are moving and clearing out their old warehouses.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 16 Nov 2016, 16:00:46

Tesla is the beneficiary of billions of dollars of tax credits and grants

These may go away once trump and the Rs take office

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby GHung » Wed 16 Nov 2016, 16:12:23

Plantagenet wrote:Tesla is the beneficiary of billions of dollars of tax credits and grants

These may go away once trump and the Rs take office


Maybe not, Planty. I think Elon Musk is Trump's kind of guy.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby hvacman » Wed 16 Nov 2016, 18:03:17

pstarr wrote: I wish it has come out a decade earlier, before we blew through our oil :cry:


The problem with that sentiment is the Bolt could not have been built a decade ago. The Bolt relies upon multiple technological breakthroughs that were originally evolved from other industries or for non-EV's within the automotive industry:

Lithium ion batteries - major industry originally pushing it - the laptop/personal electronics industry and portable tool industry. The Pansonics and LG Chems of the world originally evolved the lithium ion battery cell for those industries. It wasn't until Tesla built the Roadster 10 years ago literally using laptop cells that the battery industry began exploring how to optimize the lithium ion chemistry and cell/battery pack design for high power applications like and EV.

Power electronics - major industry pushing it - pump, HVAC equipment, and other rotating machinery manufacturers, photovoltaic, wind, and emergency generation industry. The charge controllers and power inverters that accurately and efficiently convert AC utility power to regulated DC to charge the batteries and then convert the battery DC power to variable voltage/frequency AC to vary the power and speed of the EV drive motors all rely on high-power transistors and circuits originally devised to efficiently drive pumps, fans, compressors, and other rotating machinery at varying speeds. The same inverter power electronics is what makes mini-split ductless heat pumps run so efficiently and quietly and are built into most emergency generators to create clean constant-voltage-and-frequency AC power with variable-speed engines and generators. They also convert the variable DC voltage power from PV systems and wind generators to utility-grade AC power.

Super high strength steel - A lot of industries, but especially automotive. Even without EV's, the auto industry has been working on these new steels for the past decade to lighten up their vehicles and improve mpg and reduce the required engine size.

I don't mourn that the Bolt wasn't available a decade ago. I'm glad it is here, now. I just hope we continue to build on the breakthroughs and don't continue to blow through yet more of our reserves than we have to.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby pstarr » Wed 16 Nov 2016, 18:31:19

hvacman, are you really giving credit to Tesla/Musk for lithium battery development? I have trouble stomaching that :-x lol

But about those mini-splits! Where would Humboldt be without them lol [smilie=glasses3.gif]
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby AdamB » Wed 16 Nov 2016, 23:29:48

pstarr wrote:I wish it has come out a decade earlier, before we blew through our oil :cry:


Well, the first 1.3T barrels anyway. We can cry about it after we get through the next trillion, and realize that we might only have another 6 or 7T of affordable stuff after that.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby pstarr » Thu 17 Nov 2016, 01:39:32

AdamB wrote:
pstarr wrote:I wish it has come out a decade earlier, before we blew through our oil :cry:


Well, the first 1.3T barrels anyway. We can cry about it after we get through the next trillion, and realize that we might only have another 6 or 7T of affordable stuff after that.
Stop lying.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 17 Nov 2016, 08:17:00

pstarr wrote:
AdamB wrote:
pstarr wrote:I wish it has come out a decade earlier, before we blew through our oil :cry:


Well, the first 1.3T barrels anyway. We can cry about it after we get through the next trillion, and realize that we might only have another 6 or 7T of affordable stuff after that.
Stop lying.


Pete this is one of those arguments that boils down to definitions. Adam likes to count everything you can make a liquid including the condensate on one end and the super heavy you have to heat to get flow at the other end. Technically that spectrum covers at least 4 Trillion barrels and possibly as much as the 7 Trillion he refers too.

You and I have certainly circled the not counting condensate end many times, I count it and you call it lighter fluid. So long as we all know what we are counting and don't pretend we have the only viable definition then none of us are lying, we are just disagreeing.
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