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THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby AdamB » Thu 13 Oct 2016, 11:01:33

Revi wrote:I think we should be using the oil that's left for agriculture.


So we've used 1.3 trillion barrels, we should save the other 3-4-5-6 trillion for agricultural? A good idea, considering the small amount agriculture needs we would have that oil for the next couple hundred years probably, but considering that the transition to electrical transport has begun (along with renewable electrical generation), this idea would seem a bit extreme. So we use another trillion or 2 making the transition, easing the way as it were. No need to go cold turkey

Revi wrote:We can get around on trains and busses and walk around the towns we are going to need to live in. A good way to get around would be in one of these:
Image


How about ones with AC and heat and that will keep us from getting wet? They are also here, part of the ongoing transition, and better yet, you can always turn on the gas engine and it is just like an old-fashioned, mostly obsolete ICE powered personal transport.

Image
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 13 Oct 2016, 12:58:46

Revi wrote:I think we should be using the oil that's left for agriculture. We can get around on trains and busses and walk around the towns we are going to need to live in.

Clearly, US society has shown a disinclination to do this, except for some really big cities because they provided public transport because auto traffic was so bad.

Example: Washington, DC. It has a nice bus and subway system near town. With a bit of planning, you can get by without a car. Plus cars tend to be very expensive to park there. If I lived there (which I considered at one point, due to my job) I would forego a car. Between mass transit, cabs, and my feet, it would be cheaper and more convenient not to own a car with a little planning.

However, aside from a relative handful of such cities, NOT SO MUCH. And I don't see that changing anytime soon.

However, as Adam says, the move to electric transport is underway, and many more alternatives will be available (especially if you include PHEV's) within the next several years.

But meanwhile, why don't we simply electrify the farm machinery? If we can drive a Tesla several hundred miles, why can't we drive a combine or tractor several hours, if not all day, on a big battery, charge it overnight, and wala -- little to no need to burn gas or diesel for that machinery.

There are a lot less farmers than non-farmers. The transition to electric farming should be far less costlier and far quicker than trying to put mass transit all over the US. And it's not even practical cost wise for rural areas, where MANY people still live.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby hvacman » Thu 13 Oct 2016, 13:24:20

If you live in California or Oregon, you may now head to your (participating) Chevy dealer and order a 2017 Chevy Bolt EV with 238 miles EPA range. This is not a reservation or "pre-order". This is the real-deal. All MRSP and invoice prices and all options have been published and ready for filling in the order forms.

http://gm-volt.com/2016/10/13/2017-chevy-bolt-ev-ordering-has-begun-in-california-and-oregon/

The big dealers in metro northern and southern California appear to be getting the first allocations. GM says that deliveries to the dealers should happen before year's end.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 15 Oct 2016, 11:52:24

The amusing thing is watching Chevrolet and Tesla trying to one up one another on EV range. Chevy said 200 miles for the Bolt, Tesla Model 3 upped the bid to 215 miles, and Chevrolet said 238 and the ball is now in Tesla's court. Mind you this is for a Bolt that might ship in late 2016 (as a 2017 model) and a Tesla Model 3 that might ship in calendar 2017 but more likely 2018. There are no production examples of either vehicle to confirm these ranges, and the EPA figures are preliminary and based on pre-production prototypes.

The advertising specification battle does not interest me, I'll wait for a head-to-head driving test, thank you.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Sat 15 Oct 2016, 12:14:20

Outcast_Searcher wrote:But meanwhile, why don't we simply electrify the farm machinery? If we can drive a Tesla several hundred miles, why can't we drive a combine or tractor several hours, if not all day, on a big battery, charge it overnight, and wala -- little to no need to burn gas or diesel for that machinery.
There are a lot less farmers than non-farmers. The transition to electric farming should be far less costlier and far quicker than trying to put mass transit all over the US. And it's not even practical cost wise for rural areas, where MANY people still live.


I live in wheat country, and have a neighbor who says that he burns 300-500 gallons of diesel a day in one of his big tractors when cultivating with a 40 foot spread behind him.
I think that getting even half that equivalent energy from a battery pack would be nearly impossible. Not to mention the extra weight on soft fields in the spring.
It may be possible, but I am thinking better battery technology may be required.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sat 15 Oct 2016, 15:09:12

"...why don't we simply electrify the farm machinery?" Probably in part similar to the reason everyone now driving an ICE doesn't immediaterly replace them with the cheapest EV available: lack of the $2.8 TRILLION needed to so. I imagine that farm equipment has a much longer life then the 10+ years of US ICE's.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby litesong » Sat 15 Oct 2016, 23:02:17

kaiserjeep wrote:The amusing thing is watching Chevrolet and Tesla trying to one up one another on EV range.


A good re-pubic-lick-un would NOT laugh at competition. Ah, now I see. kaiserjeep... a name associated with poor efficiency laughs at the concept of green efficiency to cut GHG emissions.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby hvacman » Mon 17 Oct 2016, 13:52:44

KaiserJeep wrote:The amusing thing is watching Chevrolet and Tesla trying to one up one another on EV range. Chevy said 200 miles for the Bolt, Tesla Model 3 upped the bid to 215 miles, and Chevrolet said 238 and the ball is now in Tesla's court. Mind you this is for a Bolt that might ship in late 2016 (as a 2017 model) and a Tesla Model 3 that might ship in calendar 2017 but more likely 2018. There are no production examples of either vehicle to confirm these ranges, and the EPA figures are preliminary and based on pre-production prototypes.

The advertising specification battle does not interest me, I'll wait for a head-to-head driving test, thank you.


Chevy is not playing a one-up-game with Tesla. They initially-estimated "over 200 miles" range, then did the EPA test protocols with their "final" version, resulting in 238 miles range EPA. Essentially, they have "called". This is not "preliminary", unlike Tesla's Model 3, which hasn't submitted anything to the EPA or given independent drivers a chance to do a long-range test-drive. 2017 Bolts are now for-sale and advertised with this EPA range. This is not a "guess". The EPA frowns on that. Ask Ford and Hyundai.

FYI, below is a link showing the internal EPA range ratings for the Bolt at both EPA city and highway cycles. 217.4 miles highway, 255.1 miles city

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/09/21/chevy-bolt-goes-255-miles-in-the-city/

The Bolts driven on various test drive this last month are "pre-production" in that they are not for-retail-sale, but they are not "prototypes". They rolled off the Orion production line, using production tooling, parts and assembly. The Tesla Model 3's that have been shown ARE prototypes - somewhere between concept and pre-production. No independent drives. No EPA testing.

KJ, you should be able stop playing the advertising game and head down to Capitol Chevrolet in San Jose to take your own Bolt test drive somewhere around the end of the year. 110 Bolts in their initial allocation and about 450 for the greater Bay Area. Can't say when you'll get a chance to test drive a for-retail-sale Model 3, even though they will be assembled just a stone's throw from you.

http://www.hybridcars.com/2017-chevy-bolt-ev-ordering-has-begun-in-california-and-oregon/
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 17 Oct 2016, 17:56:46

Hawkcreek wrote:I live in wheat country, and have a neighbor who says that he burns 300-500 gallons of diesel a day in one of his big tractors when cultivating with a 40 foot spread behind him.
I think that getting even half that equivalent energy from a battery pack would be nearly impossible. Not to mention the extra weight on soft fields in the spring.
It may be possible, but I am thinking better battery technology may be required.

Wow. Yeah, 300-500 gallons of diesel in one day is pretty amazing. Pretty much an order of magnitude more than a big car would burn. So given the cost and weight of current batteries, I see now, and agree with you. It would take a fundamental improvement in batteries to be economically feasible.

Thanks for the insight. Burning THAT much fuel in one tractor in one day of cultivating just wasn't intuitive to me.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby hvacman » Mon 17 Oct 2016, 20:04:33

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
Hawkcreek wrote:I live in wheat country, and have a neighbor who says that he burns 300-500 gallons of diesel a day in one of his big tractors when cultivating with a 40 foot spread behind him.
I think that getting even half that equivalent energy from a battery pack would be nearly impossible. Not to mention the extra weight on soft fields in the spring.
It may be possible, but I am thinking better battery technology may be required.

Wow. Yeah, 300-500 gallons of diesel in one day is pretty amazing. Pretty much an order of magnitude more than a big car would burn. So given the cost and weight of current batteries, I see now, and agree with you. It would take a fundamental improvement in batteries to be economically feasible.

Thanks for the insight. Burning THAT much fuel in one tractor in one day of cultivating just wasn't intuitive to me.


Which makes the whole point of the impact finite domestic oil resources will have on long-term food cost and availability. Industrial farming will not be viable in its current model, both for the energy cost of the farming and the energy cost for shipping. In both cases, you just can't "substitute" electric batteries for fuel-oil and continue with the same model. Battery technology is not the solution. Something else has to give.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby tita » Thu 20 Oct 2016, 05:09:18

ROCKMAN wrote:"...why don't we simply electrify the farm machinery?" Probably in part similar to the reason everyone now driving an ICE doesn't immediaterly replace them with the cheapest EV available: lack of the $2.8 TRILLION needed to so. I imagine that farm equipment has a much longer life then the 10+ years of US ICE's.

So True! My father bought his first tractor in 1964, and it worked till 2010. Recent equipment are made to last at least 20 years. The use is very different from cars, you count the hours of work, not the miles travelled. And a day of work in the hot season is usually 16 hours, while it is almost not used in winter.

If you want to adapt farming to the EV, you have to rethink entirely the concept. Instead of very large machinery operated by one human (reducing cost), the idea would be to have an army of small autonomous machines (which was the way we did before machines, the army being human workers with scythes and horses pulling carts). But actually, I think they keep the large diesel machines and plan to make them autonomous.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby kublikhan » Thu 20 Oct 2016, 07:56:51

Hawkcreek wrote:I live in wheat country, and have a neighbor who says that he burns 300-500 gallons of diesel a day in one of his big tractors when cultivating with a 40 foot spread behind him.
I think that getting even half that equivalent energy from a battery pack would be nearly impossible. Not to mention the extra weight on soft fields in the spring.
It may be possible, but I am thinking better battery technology may be required.
With fuel consumption on that scale I wonder if it would be better to feed in the electricity with an overhead trolley system like they do with a Trolleybus and Trolleytruck. Although I imagine this would require much higher fuel prices than we have today to be economically feasible. Maybe a really long extension cord would be better :)

Electric coal mining equipment is cord-connected. Even enormous draglines ("steam" shovels on steroids) are typically cord connected with 13 kV cables. It is a mature science. Coal mining equipment has been electric powered since the early 1900's. Specialized cables, reels, transformers, and equipment for the mining industry. Easily transferable technology to agriculture. They typically put a reel on the back of the mining machine that pays out (or pulls in) the cable as needed.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 20 Oct 2016, 08:10:14

There is another option, institute battery packs on every farm implement to supplement to pack on the traction unit. That does a much better job of distributing the heavy mass of batteries and could double or triple your endurance. Also you could own more than one copy of the implement, which is the cheaper part of the system even with the added complexity of the battery pack. Need to harrow all your fields? Hook up to Harrow A unit, work the fields until its battery is depleted, go in to the farm yard and plug Harrow A back into the charger and put Harrow B on the tractor, eat a quick snack and head back out for another couple of hours. When B is depleted switch back to A which has been quick charging while you had your snack and were working with B. Repeat as needed. Keep the battery pack in the Tractor itself for hauling the harrow too and from the section you are working on so you don't get stranded with a dead battery between field and farm yard.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Thu 20 Oct 2016, 09:04:24

T - There is still the huge cost factor with replacing existing equipment that can have lifetimes of 10 to 20 years. But also from the EIA:

Farmers make up a significant share of industrial electricity customers in certain states. This is because of demand from farm irrigation systems, which are categorized by electric utilities as industrial load. For example, Nebraska is largely rural and agricultural, but it has the third-highest count of industrial electricity customers in the United States. The same factor drives up the number of industrial electricity customers in Idaho and Kansas, which are also among the top 10 states in number of industrial electricity customers.

Dawson Public Power District, a rural electric cooperative in an agriculture-heavy region of Nebraska, accounted for less than 3% of statewide industrial electricity sales in 2012 but had one of the highest average prices for industrial power. In general, the highest industrial electricity prices in Nebraska tend to be located in the rural southern and western portions of the state.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 20 Oct 2016, 16:06:11

In the MidWest, grain silos are huge consumers of electricity. Corn used to be grown in varieties that dried on the stalk and were picked dry, now we pick moist ears and stalks which have to be dried to avoid mold and mildew. Giant fans for the grain, and the silage (stalks and leaves) is dried in the sun and then bulldozed into piles which are covered with plastic film. The cattle are fed mixtures of grain, silage (bulk fiber), vitamins, antibiotics, and you don't want to know what else.

Hard to imagine something like a large electric bulldozer. But we are already prototyping EV versions of heavy trucks, it's not impossible.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby hvacman » Thu 20 Oct 2016, 17:31:21

The timber industry uses these massive diesel-electric log loaders that can load or unload a full log truck in one bite or re-arrange a massive log deck, treating logs like so many matchsticks . They have a big diesel generator and use electric motors to run the wheels and all the moving parts - no hydraulic cylinders. It would be pretty easy to load up one with about 300-500 kWh of batteries on the back end and run it all-electric or run it like a plug-in electric hybrid and cut the generator/fuel use size in-half.

http://www.joyglobal.com/products/forestry-log-stackers/55-series-log-stackers

Probably could adapt cats, graders, etc. to a similar configuration. Going electric on all the actuators and drives also makes it easier to add automated control functions. Autonomous cars? Heck, autonomous backhoes! Just plug in your digital excavation plan into the all-electric backhoe's computer and let it do the work while you supervise off to the side.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby StarvingLion » Thu 20 Oct 2016, 18:25:02

It would be pretty easy to load up one with about 300-500 kWh of batteries on the back end and run it all-electric


Hahahahahahaha.....

Imagine, these fools believe diesel = worthless, batteries = priceless

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby Subjectivist » Thu 20 Oct 2016, 20:16:40

KaiserJeep wrote:In the MidWest, grain silos are huge consumers of electricity. Corn used to be grown in varieties that dried on the stalk and were picked dry, now we pick moist ears and stalks which have to be dried to avoid mold and mildew. Giant fans for the grain, and the silage (stalks and leaves) is dried in the sun and then bulldozed into piles which are covered with plastic film. The cattle are fed mixtures of grain, silage (bulk fiber), vitamins, antibiotics, and you don't want to know what else.

Hard to imagine something like a large electric bulldozer. But we are already prototyping EV versions of heavy trucks, it's not impossible.


Incorrect, silage is harvested very wet and placed in vlosed covers wet to promote anerobic digestion of cellusose into mold proteins. After some weeks or months the slimy moldy silage is stirred and fed to livestock, an excellent source of protein, cellulose and leftover statch from the partially digested grain heads.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby tita » Fri 21 Oct 2016, 04:59:18

>Hvacman You're right when you say that the weight/volume of batteries is not important in those machines, which are design to do heavy work and not transport. But the other concerns of EV stays: autonomy, costs ($800k just for batteries?). One problem I see is the fact that heavy machines are usually left on site until the work is done (few days to weeks), and there is no electric outlet. This is the magic of diesel, easy way to transport a big amount of energy wherever it is needed.

Electrical Forklifts are very common inside buildings. But ICE Forklifts are preferred wherever is possible, for costs reasons: less time to refill, so never stuck; longer autonomy, so less time paying someone to fill it.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby hvacman » Fri 21 Oct 2016, 13:31:36

tita wrote:>Hvacman You're right when you say that the weight/volume of batteries is not important in those machines, which are design to do heavy work and not transport. But the other concerns of EV stays: autonomy, costs ($800k just for batteries?). One problem I see is the fact that heavy machines are usually left on site until the work is done (few days to weeks), and there is no electric outlet. This is the magic of diesel, easy way to transport a big amount of energy wherever it is needed.

Electrical Forklifts are very common inside buildings. But ICE Forklifts are preferred wherever is possible, for costs reasons: less time to refill, so never stuck; longer autonomy, so less time paying someone to fill it.


The EV lithium ion battery pack costs now down to $200/kWh. Target price by 2020 per kwH for lithium ion batteries is $150. 500 kWh = $75K, not $500K. Going to a plug-in hybrid concept can give the best of both diesel and EV-worlds. Plug-in charging where applicable - diesel use plummets. Run as a diesel-electric hybrid when no re-charging is not available. Hybrid mode allows for dynamic energy recovery, half-sized diesel engine-generators running constantly at their most efficient load point. Individual wheel drive without mechanical transmissions improves maneuverability and mechanical simplicity. No hydraulics eliminates a lot of control issues. Less to break. Could cut equipment purchase cost, improve equipment operational functionality, up-time, and cut fuel consumption in-half.

For now, Caterpillar has developed an all-hydraulic hybrid excavator. I'm sure they are exploring electric hybrids, too.

From Caterpillar's website:
Hydraulic hybrid technology is here to stay, and the reason is simple: It works. The Cat hybrid technology is unlike any other in that it seeks energy savings throughout the work cycle, which translates to reduced fuel consumption in any application. It is a smart system that actually helps lower operating costs without sacrificing power or productivity.


http://www.cat.com/en_US/articles/solut ... vator.html
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