THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 3 (merged)

[Timo]

Plant, just to add a little perspective to your argument regarding the Karma, and EVs in general (without questioning your particular viewpoint), one step at a time. I'm not endorsing the Karma or discounting the problems, potential or valid, with its batery systems. However, from my point of view, again -right or wrong, i look at the hundreds, if not thousands of actual lives lost in the battles over oil, and the inevitable disasters that stem from its delivery. The Deepwater Horizon was far more catastrophic than any fire caused by any EV, anywhere. The wars in Nigeria, the spills and leaks in Michigan, refinery fires, and on and on, are much more detrimental to life and property than the fires of the Karma, or the Volt, for that matter. I'm not discounting your opinions regarding battery technologies, or any specific EV product. I'm just saying that in the larger scheme of things, yes, there are still problems to be worked out, and yes, those problems can and probably will continue to cause futher damage, but comparatively, the stand-by technologies of the status quo are far more troubling and cause for concern. One step at a time. Learn from our mistakes. Make things better than they are today. Patience, up to a point, is a virtue. Especially when it comes to developing and implementing new technologies.

[Plantagenet]

Plant, just to add a little perspective to your argument regarding the Karma, and EVs in general (without questioning your particular viewpoint), one step at a time. I'm not endorsing the Karma or discounting the problems, potential or valid, with its batery systems. However, from my point of view, again -right or wrong, i look at the hundreds, if not thousands of actual lives lost in the battles over oil, and the inevitable disasters that stem from its delivery. The Deepwater Horizon was far more catastrophic than any fire caused by any EV, anywhere. The wars in Nigeria, the spills and leaks in Michigan, refinery fires, and on and on, are much more detrimental to life and property than the fires of the Karma, or the Volt, for that matter.

Don't forget to count the environmental destruction and disease and deaths caused by coal-mining on the EVs tally sheet, since coal provides most of the energy to generate the electricity used by EVs.



--------------------------------

The issue this new fire in a bad Karma EV raises is whether or not there is a fire risk with the Fisker Karma and perhaps other EVs?

If there is it should be fixed-----How hard is that to understand?

[Plantagenet]

OK the EV boosters are right---You've convinced me. Like you, I no longer worry about the engineering or the poor quality reported by Fisker owners and especially don't worry about this little fire issue. Who cares about the possibility that EVs catch on fire when they are sitting in a garage. It does't happen very often, and the battery pack survived as every bit of the rest of the car burned to the ground.--- Just remember that lots of rich celebrities drive EVs. For instance, Justin Bieber has a Fisker Karma. AND if Justin Bieber has a Fisker Karma then buying an EV is a no-brainer----I mean really a no-brainer.

Justin Bieber has a Fisker Karma and he take hot babes like Selena Gomez for rides in it and you can be like him and buy one too!


Selena Gomez went on a date to the Chik-fil-A with Justin Bieber in his chrome Fisker Karma! These cars are really good for the environment because they run on electricity made from coal and they only cost 100,000!

snark alert

[Timo]

Funny! I've also thought that big-time celebrity wannabes who drive EVs diminish the public's perception of their technological value. I'm not a huge Karma fan, but i certainly like the Karma a whole lot more than i have any respect for Justin Bieber.

Ane speaking of the Bebe, i heard through the grapevine that he's Demi Moore's new couger meat.

Sorry. I couldn't resist.

[Plantagenet]

The Fisker corporation is behaving outrageously. Here is a letter from the attorneys of the man whose Karma spontaneously caught fire in his garage, describing what has happened in this matter so far:

statement from the attorneys representing the Fisker Karma owner, Jeremy Gutierrez. The statement is reproduced below.


Houston, Texas, May 9, 2012 – On the afternoon of May 2, 2012, Mr. Jeremy Gutierrez's brand new Fisker Karma hybrid electric vehicle caught fire while parked in his garage, setting fire to his home while his wife, mother, and child were inside. Thanks to the fast action of Mr. Gutierrez, he was able to evacuate his family from the home moments before portions of the house were engulfed in flames, including his child's bedroom.

The Fort Bend County Fire Department immediately responded to the scene and as able to contain and extinguish the fire before total destruction of the Gutierrez's family home. The fire department recently completed their investigation and determined the origin of the fire was, in fact, Gutierrez's newly purchased Fisker Karma hybrid electric vehicle that he just took possession of two weeks earlier. Chief Investigator for the Fort Bend County Fire Marshal's Office Robert N. Baker has concluded that the fire was accidental in nature.

Since the date of this incident, Mr. Gutierrez has been fully cooperative with public safety officials, as well as insurance adjusters and the vehicle manufacturer's investigators. In fact, Mr. Gutierrez fully accommodated the precise and somewhat peculiar demands of Fisker Automotive, who sent their self-proclaimed “SWAT Team” of engineers and inspectors (that included their own forensic cause and origin investigator) to the Gutierrez home within 24 hours of the fire. They descended upon the Gutierrez home in alarming numbers and immediately demanded a 24-hour lock-down of his home, including the remains of the Fisker Karma vehicle. They also cordoned off portions of the Gutierrez home with non-transparent tarps to block the view from the public. Fisker even had access to eyewitnesses, who were interviewed by Fisker investigators and those investigators were shown video footage of the Fisker vehicle on fire .... Mr. Gutierrez accommodated every request with the hope of have a full, fair and open inquiry into the cause of the Fisker vehicle fire that set his house ablaze and endangered his family.

Despite the fact public safety and law enforcement officials have determined Mr. Gutierrez's home and vehicles are not a crime scene, Fisker Automotive released a public statement on May 8, 2012 implying fraud or malicious intent were open questions. The family is stunned by this implication. The Gutierrez family has afforded every accommodation to Fisker and access to all evidence that public safety and law enforcement official examined. Fisker's statement is a grave disappointment, especially in light of the damages the family suffered and continues to suffer.

The Gutierrez family has suffered enough. They are temporarily displaced from their home, and have lost three vehicles. They value their privacy and wish to have this investigation completed immediately so they can return to their home. The law firm of Johnson, Trent, West & Taylor, L.L.P., a Houston-based law firm, has and will continue to represent the Gutierrez family during this time. Please direct all inquires on the matter to our firm; do not contact Mr. or Mrs. Gutierrez directly. Attorneys for the family, Lori Hood or Rafe Taylor, can be reached at (713) 222-2323.



Read more: autoweek news story on Fisker Karma fire

[Frank]

Any kind of fire near someone's home is tragic. For the record though, there's still something like 500 car fires per day in the United States. You know, regular, old-fashioned cars with 10-20 times the amount of energy in liquid fossil fuels contained in their fuel tanks...

[Revi]

Last time I checked my little car hadn't burned up yet. Arguing about what kind of car will work in the future is like having a squabble about what kind of jet you are going to buy now. Most of us are out of cars soon anyway. There's no way we'll be using the rest of our energy to push a steel box into the wind. The only thing that's going to make sense is electric trains and maybe really small electric cars. We won't be able to afford anything else.

[Plantagenet]

Arguing about what kind of car will work in the future is like having a squabble about what kind of jet you are going to buy now. Most of us are out of cars soon anyway. There's no way we'll be using the rest of our energy to push a steel box into the wind. The only thing that's going to make sense is electric trains and maybe really small electric cars. We won't be able to afford anything else.

It makes perfect sense to think about what kind of car will work in the future.

For instance, you left NG cars off your list of thngs that might make sense going forward. NG cars are cost competitive with gasoline cars right now, and refueling them with CNG is much cheaper than gasoline.

[Plantagenet]

BAD engine design may have caused the Fisker Karma fire, says EV expert

engine too big for engine compartment says EV expert

That should be easy to fix. Just recall all the Karmas, get a sledge hammer and bang out the panelling on both sides of the engine compartment and make the whole front end a foot wider or so, and then push the grill out in front and mount it on 2x4s.

Easy Peasy---bigger engine compartment!

[Frank]

...so the fire had nothing to do with the fact that it's a hybrid, except for the possible influence of it needing a larger engine because of battery weight? Poor engineering will get you every time...

[Timo]

Say what you will about the Karma and all of its problems in design and engineering. For the most part, i'm sure it's all true, but for my money (not saying that i actually have that kind of stash, or anything close to it), i think the Karma just looks cool, like a car should look. Between the Karma and the iMiev from Mitsubishi, the Karma please.

And while we're on the topic of electric cars, i read yesterday the development of a cheap, dependable and very efficient catalyst for separating hydrogen from h20. The gist of the article was that this development could put FC vehicles back on the map.

And lastly, while we're all discussing the future of vehicle transportation and the technologies needed to make it all happen, i think (i hope) we can all agree that any single technology probably isn't in the picture. The old, reliable ICE will give way to the next century of multiple technologies, each with its own set of advantages and disadvantages, all performing relatively similar in the grand scheme of things. Where the sun is overly abundant (Arizona), pure electric might be the way to go because the electricity can come from the sun. In less sunny climates (New England), maybe hydrogen is the way to go, or CNG. There's just no telling, and that's one of the best things (or one of the worst thing, depending on your POV) about the free market. Given enough time, a winner will emerge based on technological superiority over all other competitors. I admit that's probably wishful thinking, but you get my point. In fact, the free market could very well end up destroying us all through climate change. I mean, wasn't it the free market that caused the Coyuhoga (sp?) River to catch on fire?

[kublikhan]

Between the Karma and the iMiev from Mitsubishi, the Karma please.

+1
Who the hell designed the iMiev? It is one of the ugliest cars I have ever seen. 30 grand for that?!?!?

[Timo]

Between the Karma and the iMiev from Mitsubishi, the Karma please.

+1
Who the hell designed the iMiev? It is one of the ugliest cars I have ever seen. 30 grand for that?!?!?

Ahhh, but the iMiev hasn't had any fires to report..............yet. It is very soundly engineered. Can't you just see Justin Bieber driving his special lady friends around in one of those??? No fire extinguisher required!

[Frank]

I agree that the future will be a mix of all sorts of technological developments and we shouldn't try to pick winners.

What we *can* and *should* do though is make sure that all the significant costs are identified and captured in the price of things. The biggest example is carbon emissions: the "low end" estimate is about $21/ton. These are real costs already being borne by society, just not those that use the fuels. Ensuring these types of costs get allocated to the right place is a necessary step in making choices about future energy sources.

[Shaved Monkey]

Ford Falcon EcoBoost (Super Charged 4 Cylinder Ford)
v
Toyota Camry Hybrid (Prius technology in a slightly larger car)
v
Holden Commodore LPG (GM designed to run on LPG )
v
Ford Falcon EcoLPi: (Ford Designed to run on LPG)

New technology means Australian-made large cars are more frugal than ever, but which is best?
All solutions have their advantages.
LPG is not as efficient as petrol, but is (currently) about half the price and emits less carbon dioxide.
Ford's turbocharged four-cylinder promises six-cylinder power and four-cylinder fuel economy, while the Camry Hybrid combines a 2.5-litre four-cylinder petrol engine with an electric motor for claimed small-car fuel consumption.
Verdict

The Commodore and the Falcon EcoBoost get knocked out of the contest first.

The four-cylinder Falcon is a fine engineering effort but if we are judging this comparison test first and foremost on economy and fuel costs, then it clearly loses out.

The Commodore gets knocked because in a two-horse dedicated LPG race it is clearly the inferior competitor.
The EcoLPi Falcon does a better job of saving you money and delivers a more satisfying drive.

Which leaves the LPG Falcon and the Camry Hybrid.

Yet such is the fuel-price differential between petrol and LPG, the EcoLPi Falcon managed to undercut the Camry's fuel-cost-per-kilometre average, while the Commodore SV6 owner will pay only a little more.

But the Camry emits significantly less CO2 and you don't have to refuel as often as an LPG car. And at $34,990 you have paid significantly less (based on RRP).

Personally, I would take the Falcon because it is a pleasure to drive and powered by a fuel that reduces our dependency on imported oil.

Yet the economy and pricing of the Camry are impossible to ignore. It is a car that lacks personality but is brainy, frugal and affordable, and deserves the top ranking in this test.

http://theage.drive.com.au/new-car-comp ... 1yg69.html

The electric car wins but the LPG Ford drives the best and costs less to refuel (currently based on LPG prices V Petrol prices)
Hybrid LPG maybe the next solution.

[Frank]

"The electric car wins..."

For the sake of accuracy, the Camry is not an EV. It is a hybrid and still derives all its energy from gasoline. The electric motor(s) simply make it a more efficient transport platform. OK, not simply: it's very sophisticated but extremely well developed.

[pstarr]

Arguing about what kind of car will work in the future is like having a squabble about what kind of jet you are going to buy now. Most of us are out of cars soon anyway. There's no way we'll be using the rest of our energy to push a steel box into the wind. The only thing that's going to make sense is electric trains and maybe really small electric cars. We won't be able to afford anything else.

It makes perfect sense to think about what kind of car will work in the future.

For instance, you left NG cars off your list of thngs that might make sense going forward. NG cars are cost competitive with gasoline cars right now, and refueling them with CNG is much cheaper than gasoline.

I might make the analogy that tree leaves are cost-competitive with tree trunks right now. And building a home with them is much cheaper than with real wood. I would argue that leaves and trunks are merely different state/forms of the same material; trunks being heavy and solid, leaves light and airy.

But you being a realist would argue that leaf trusses don't stay in place, they'd blow off the roof. Or you can't throw them in the back of your truck and drive to the job site. I'd argue that you can just compress the leaves into a solid material NO PROBLEMO! I would argue that Home Depot has/will/is-gonna-real-soon offer a little mini leaf compressor (USB) that will turn everything; grass clippings, philodendron leaves, even the straw and hay on your head into mill-graded stamped number 1 construction fir. I might say that, but then I would be considered a dunce

Now somebody might make similar arguments for natural gas. You know the argument. You just throw the can'O'gas into the back of your truck, and off you go. That kind of thing? Or drive a load out to the farmers barn for the tractors. Easy peasy. What does an Ingersol-Rand compressor cost? Only $1 million. NO PROBLEMO!

[Plantagenet]

NHTSA opens investigation of Fisker Karma fire hazard after a new Bad Karma reportedly undergoes spontaneous combustion in a Texas garage.

NHTSA investigates Karma "incident"

Fisker got one of those "Half billion dollar" dollops of money from the Obama administration to build the "Bad Karma" PHEV.

[pstarr]

Plant, nothing more to say about the natural-gas revolution overtaking peak oil?

I've challenged you on several occasions to supply data to support you contention that NG is replacing, or will replace liquid petroleum as a primary transport fuel. (In the face of record gas prices.) This time I bothered to create an analogy; that while the chemistry is similar, the form and therefor the function of liquid petroleum and natural gas are very different. It was nice analogy. Gets to the point. Original. Even cute.

You answer: Obama. Not even cute.

[Plantagenet]

I've answered you on that question twice already, p.

Maybe you were tired or mentally distracted when we had those prior exchanges? Think for a bit---remember now? IF you still can't remember, use the search function to find the prior discussions.



CHEERS!