THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 1 (merged) Archived

[The_Toecutter]

It's not quite electric yet as I'm still gathering money/parts, and doing mostly bodywork. This car used to be a lot worse last year, and its current paintjob was slopped on to protect it from rust, but it will be British Racing Green pretty soon. I couldn't bear to see it propped up on cinder blocks, so the car is currenly running as a gasoline powered car, waiting for me to dump more cash into it. Next order of business is to purchase or mold/create, and install the fiberglass LeMans style bonnet, doorskins, rockers, hatch, bumpers, wheel well covers, underbelly and inside grill cover, and install lexan windows and a new windshield. Currently inside the bonnet lurks a fearsome inline 6 cylinder, waiting to be replaced with an electric motor. That engine bay used to be empty, but not having much money as of late means it would just sit, so I had to do something with it!

The exterior is in pretty good shape. Mostly rust free, the body is the item I was worried about most. I checked this car with a magnet very closely when I got it and the body was great, although ever since it's been in my garage, the floorboards have gone from adequate to almost non-existant. The parking brake recently broke, so I hold the car in place with rocks, one in the front and one in the rear. Also, it has no plates(ones it had expired and were removed), but that hasn't kept me from driving it on occassion! I love how it can smoke its tires and make a savage growl not too different from a Harley Davidson motorcycle, although it faintly sounds like a 60s Ferrari to an extent as well. Nothing beats sneaking up on ignorant SUV and minivan drivers who cannot see it because it's too low to the ground, then suddenly slamming the pedal to the floor right next to them and shooting out in front of them at double the speed limit! Scares the shit out of them! I'll miss that noise when I put an electric motor in her.







Interior is crap. Doesn't matter: I'm stripping the hell out of it anyway. Make note of all the room in the back under the rear hatch. The back is going to be filled with batteries.





Now under the hood. You can see all 2.5 Liters and 210 horsepower of this bored TR6 beauty(Not stock). In an 1800 pound car. This will be taken out, to make way for the electric motor and the controller, along with a few batteries. Although you can't see it, installed is also a TR6 non-overdrive transmission and drive axel to handle the additional torque and power the electric motor will dish out to it once installed.




I'm going to paint her dark British Racing Green after I take that babyshit yellow off. It needed that paint on it though, otherwise rust would have seeped in killed the poor thing.


For those interested, here's a cost breakdown of how much it will have cost when finished:

-WarP 9'' series DC motor x1 $1,395
-Optima D750 YT battery x25 $2,500
-Godzilla Controller(72-300V DC, 1,000 amp max) x1 $2,495
-PFC 20 Charger x1 $1,500
-Todd DC-DC converter x1 $400
-Steel for battery racks $50
-Battery Cable $50
-EV200AAANA contactors x1 $75
-Feraz Shawmut A50QS400-4 fuse x2 $109
-Curtis Potbox(To control acceleration) x1 $75
-E-Meter x1 $235
-Solid-State Ceramic Heater Core x1 $75
-Adaptor Plate x1 $1000(I will be machining myself, so don't count cost)
-Miscallaneous components(Heat shrink tubing, tools, ect.) $500
-Leaf springs from Renegade Hybrids $300 (increase GVWR)
-Rudman Battery Regulators x25(Unassembled) $250
-x1 1969 Triumph GT6 Sports Car and some restoration = $1,200

-restoration and components costs, what will be spent later: $1,500 (half for restoration, half for fiberglass parts)

Total = $12,709. My own labor is free, so not tallied.


I have some of the parts bought from this list, not all. I'll need a few grand to buy the rest of the parts needed to get it going on electric power plus about 500 more hours of work, for anyone curious. Does not include price of all tools used. This will become an 80-100 mile range per charge EV that can out perform Porsche Boxters and Audi TTs with ease, while needing no gasoline. As it is now, it's simply a moderately decrepit road demon that gets about 30 miles per gallon and can still embarass most cars on the road. Can't wait to give it the upgrade it deserves.

Here's a simulated torque curve of the electric motor's performance from a little spreadsheet I made, which coincides with other calculations and estimates I made by hand and with other programs. Max motor voltage would be limited by controller to 216 volts and max motor current limited by controller to 1,000 amperes:



Perfectly flat torque up to about 4,000 rpm. What a beautiful power curve. So much of an advantage that this little 170 horsepower setup will perform like Nissan's 287 horsepower 350Z. Just compare torque curves:



I'd kill a 350Z off the line for sure, and even though I'd have only 170-ish horsepower, the guy driving the far more powerful car would have to really work to catch up.

Stock this car has a dry weight of 1,793 pounds. The drag coefficient of a stock GT6 with factory paint and no rust is about .32, and I hope to get that down to about .25-.27. Weight as an electric car will be about 2,400-2,500 pounds including driver.

The gas engine, which will be removed, is 402 pounds, and its ancillary components, like carbeurators, fuel lines, empty gas tank ect. weigh about 90 pounds.

So far I plan the following in order to cut down weight:

a) Replace the stock seats with lighter seats from a Mazda Miata or some such(-50 pounds after replacement seats are put back in)
b) Remove all carpets(-15 lbs)
c) Remove all sound deadener(-25 pounds)
d) Remove wood panel dash, replace with custom leather
dash(-5 pounds)
e) Fiberglass bumpers(-15 pounds)
f) Fiberglass bonnet, doorskins, lexan windows and other such stuff for weight reduction.(-200 pounds)

So minus 110 to 135 pounds to the car for a glider weight of around 1,000 pounds or so.

BUT, I figured out how to fit 25 Optima Yellowtop batteries into this car, at 45 pounds each. That's a 1,125 pound battery pack. The Netgain WarP 9'' electric motor going in it will weigh 160 pounds, the controller 23 pounds, charger 16 pounds, and about 100 pounds of miscallaneous parts like battery racks, rubber motor mount, battery cable, contactors, EMeter, shunts, ect.

That brings the car to a very porky 2,430 or so pounds. Plus I weigh 130 or so. Gross vehicle weight rating is 2,350 pounds, so I won't be too far over it. I may have to install leaf springs in order to handle the additional weight so the car doesn't sag, and I may need to add a second master cylinder to keep braking distance in high performance sports car territory, which may suffer due to the dramatic increase in weight.

As far as the appearance and dynamics of the car, I intend to do the following modifications in an effort to maximize efficiency and top speed by minimizing drag:

Full fiberglass underbelly, fiberglass LeMans style bonnet, removing the chrome strips and vents, fiberglass bumpers, fiberglass doorskins, fiberglass hatch, lexan windows, top half of rear wheel wells covered, she will be lowered an inch closer to the ground with a racing suspension, a roll bar will be installed, her brakes will be machined down to eliminate brake drag, her wheel bearings will be replaced with lower friction bearings, she will have aluminum alloy LeMans style rims, the driver's side mirror will be replaced with a more aerodynamic mirror, her engine compartment under the hood will be sealed from the outside world by covering the grille from the inside, her rain gutters will be shaved off, she will have shaved door handles installed, the radio antenna will be removed from the front and replaced with a less drag inducing antenna mounted on the roof, and a single center-mounted rally style windshield wiper replacing the two she has. Her transmission and drive axel will have Redline MTL synthetic oil placed in them. I plan to use Invitica GLR low rolling resistance tires. Alignment will be adjusted to 0 degrees camber in order to further cut rolling drag. Wheel bearings will also be replaced as wheel bearing friction is a significant source of drag. The flywheel will also be machined down in an effort to reduce rotational inertia, which adds to energy consumed during acceleration, this inertia resulting in slower acceelration times and more energy consumption. An electric motor doesn't need to stay revving at a stop due to it's high low-end torque, thus the flywheel does not need to retain any angular momentum like a gas car does, so it can handle hacing 10 pounds shaved from it and since it will be electric it won't stall.

Overall, this will give me 80-100 miles range pussyfooting it and taking it easy at 65-70 miles per hour on the highway, or one third to one half that range with a lead foot going 90 or so and with drag racing everybody in sight or terrorizing local law enforcement. Range at say, 140 mph, would only be about 10-15 miles. However, if I could find a place to maintain a steady 30 mph without stopping or being a nuisance to traffic, I could go 200 miles per charge, but I'd be hard pressed to ever find such a place.

The performance will be quite good. 0-60 will be around the high 5 second to low 6 second range as shown by computer simulation, and top speed between 130 and 150 miles per hour depending on the rim size I go with, the limiting factor being motor redline and not horsepower(the aerodynamic mods will help drastically).

Cost would be MUCH lower than a gasoline powered car, even with cost of batteries factored in. Let me demonstrate:

$2500 for 60,000 miles life is a battery pack cost of $.0417 per mile. At $.08 per kWh achieivng 150 wh/mile efficiency with a 92% charger efficiency and 70% battery efficiency, with $.005 per mile maintenance, total cost to operate comes out to $.0653 per mile, which combined is less than the gasoline cost for a gasoline powered Honda Civic getting 30 miles per gallon with gas at $2 a gallon. Plus the Civic also needs oil changes, tune ups, servicing, emissions tests, and other engine maintenance, while the electric car has no such issues other than tires/brakes and stuff like that. The electric car? Replace the batteries when they wear out, and change the motor brushes every 20,000-150,000 miles(Depending on how you abuse them in racing), which is a $15 dollar 20 minute operation you can do yourself in your own garage. The electric motor will last over 500,000 miles.

So, with my 100 miles range, assuming I drive 30 miles each day(my daily commute in both directions, 15 miles each way), would yield a 30% discharge, or a battery pack life of 60,000 miles before the battery pack has about 80% of its original rated capacity. A smaller battery pack of the same chemistry would mean for that same trip a deeper discharge is had, the cost per mile goes up. Too deep a discharge could kill your battery pack(although you can use computer software to prevent the operator of the vehicle from being able to do this). At shallow discharges like 20-40%, shelf life becomes the limiting factor, instead of cycle life, and Optimas have a shelf life of 6-7 years.

With a sealed lead acid battery like an Optima, you will see 2,500 cycles to 20% discharge, 2,000 cycles to 30% discharge, 800 cycles to 50% dicharge, 250 cycles to 80% discharge, and only 100 cycles to 100% discharge if properly cared for. After specified number of cycles, the battery is not 'dead', but will only deliver about 80% of its rated capacity, so it could last longer even.

Charge time will be about 2 hours from a 240V high amp outlet like you'd see at a camp ground, 8 hours from a 110 volt. Of if I bring a spare battery pack to the race track loaded up in a van or pickup and use it to dump charge my pack, it could be charged in 20 minutes. Quick charging electric vehicles is possible and technologically viable, we just haven't developed fast charging infrastructure and instead blew our much too high taxes in Iraq for oil. But our electric infrastructure is developed enough to be practical for regional travel. You can't find a gas station in every home or office like you can an electric outlet, even if it may be slow!


Later on when I am knowledgable enough to build my own battery management system, I'll be upgrading to a Lithium Ion battery pack that will give me 250+ miles range per charge @ 70 mph speeds, and weigh a full 700 pounds less than the lead acid battery pack. The car would then weigh less as an EV than it does stock as a gas car, and performance would jump, with acceleration dropping to high 4 second 0-60 times and low 13s in the 1/4 mile drag race. Cost per mile for the batteries would be about the same, with a 250,000 mile battery life for lithium ions. If I do all my own labor, this will be a $12,000 battery pack, using labtop batteries that are not mass produced for any sort of automotive application. Would automotive sized Li Ion batteries be mass produced, instead of having to rely on labtop batteries, a pack could cost as little as $6k, but if a bullfrog had wings it wouldn't bump its ass, either.


As for appearance, I'm going to take after the following cars on mine:

This thing will be looking like a $100,000 exotic by the time I get done with it. The LeMans bonnet will make it look a bit like a 1960s Ferrari. Below is a LeMans Spitfire, basically a GT6 built from a convertable Spitfire, with a LeMans bonnet like what I will be getting along with the type of rims I will be getting:



Below is how mine will be painted. Solid dark British Racing Green, no racing logos or anything like that, and it will have all the aerodynamic mods and no chrome unlike the car pictured:



For the interior, I'm going to strip it and make it look like the following interior from an electric VW Kharmen Ghia, only instead of a red theme, a British Racing Green theme:



I'm also going to install a nice sound system. 400-600 watts or so, nothing that will add too much weight.

It will end up looking like it cost 10 times more than it did, cost less to run than a slow as molasses gas powered Honda Civic, be drivable during the peak crisis, and last but not least, if the peak crisis gets bad enough to where electricity is no longer generated:

www.solarvan.co.uk

I'll have a portable wind generator to keep it charged with when it's parked along with a garage-mounted solar array. Never going to have to worry about fuel. Plus the car has a nice space behind the seat to store guns in if needed.

She will be named "Greenpeace", I am going to drag race her while people still can get gas, and she will be used as a tool to speak out against the current status quo, in order to let people know that the peak crisis can be averted, but it won't because of corporate and government greed and bearucratic incompetence, and that they better get off their asses now and do something or their lifestyles or possibly lives will be over!

[Cyrus]

Keep us updated.........

[The_Toecutter]

Also, social & psychological. In 1 minute anyone familiar with PO could name a dozen 'solutions' to the problem of PO. One-child policy, banning of private automobiles, rationing, etc. etc.

One child policy, banning of autos, ect. are nothing but big government. totalitarianism. We will be seeing more totalitarianism as the oil crisis worsens. Bush got the PATRIOT Act passed and the Homeland Security Department formed to protect the government against its own citizens, because peak oil threatens to destabilize society ala Mad Max, *but* the bearucrats and corporations that buy the bureaucrats into office want to maintain their control, and they will do so even if they have to start jailing or killing dissenters, ala Pinochet or Saddam, two tyrants the U.S. placed into power. And if we go the other route, decentralization, sustainable transit with electric cars(replace conventional cars) and high speed rails(replace airplanes), solar, wind, and biomass electricity taking a significant portion of the load from coal and natural gas, the bearucrats and corporations will also lose control because people will be independent from needing to buy from them, so they won't let a non-peak oil ravaged world exist.

We're headed down the path of the USSR, and it will be corporate owned and run. Not a pretty scenario.

You seem well informed. Do you have any ideas about the battery life of such batteries? Replacement time etc.?

Lithium ion batteries could last 250,000 miles and up. Nickel Metal Hybrid batteries about the same. But lithium batteries for automotive application aren't mass produced, thus in order to build a lithium EV, people are either throwing together battery packs composed of 6,000+ labtop computer batteries that have a horrendously complex management system and have a labor cost exceeding $30k and materials cost of about $8-12k, or they're spending in excess of $1,000 per kWh storage on hand-made prototype batteries made by small companies that don't have mass production capability, and the large businesses, they're trying to milk their current products for all their worth and aren't shelling out cheap li poly and li ion batteries just yet. In mass production, the NiMH battery that could give an EV 200 miles range promises $150 per kWh storage, but Chevron Texaco bought the patent from General Motors and refuses to sell the batteries at an affordable price for automotive application, General Motors who refuses to mass produce electric cars because they are near maintenance free. A 30 kWh NiMH pack that could give 200-250 miles range per charge in an economy or midsize sedan would cost $4,500 in volume for 20,000 cars per year, last 250,000 miles, be able to operate just fine in the cold, provide enough battery horsepower to run a 150 horsepower eelctric drive, would be fully recylable, can be fast charged in 15 minutes if you have the right charger and a powerful enough outlet(which aren't built in anything except laboratories and proving grounds), and we have far more nickel than we need to produce enough to replace all our cars. But the oil company won't let us have it. Peak oil means very big money for them. NiMH have no shelf life like NiCds and can go strong for 40+ years, and if properly maintained, lithiums could last 20+ years. But that's an if. this is late 1990s to present technology! Nanotechnology later on would improve upon this even more.

Maintenance free sealed lead acid batteries, on the other hand, will give 40-60 miles per charge(80-100 in an efficient car), can be fast charged, offer 400+ horsepower if you have the motor and controller combo to use it, and will cost about $2,500 for a pack to meet these specifications. Life would be about 50,000-70,000 miles if and only if the proper charging algorithm is used and they aren't discharged too deep on a regular basis, limited next by a shelf life of 6-7 years.

[gnm]

Good luck with your project! Be sure to include those suspension improvements!

-G

[The_Virginian]

ok, I think you make a good case that Electric cars can work.

Now where will the POWER come from?
(How many nuke, coal, wind, solar, wave/Hydro, Methane, trash burning etc. POWER PLANTS have to be built to support only ONE car per 4 people? How many to switch the entire fleet in the USA?)

[The_Virginian]

lexan windows are a poor chioce as they will become abraded and "foggy" in short time (2-3 years).

keep glass unless you need THICK lexan pullet proofing etc.

nice project car, but I'm bit worried that your floor-boards disintagrated...how'd that happen?

[UIUCstudent01]

When does that patent Chevron-Texaco bought expire?

(Patents expire after 20 years, so what time was the patent filed? Also, techinically, if you sufficiently modify something - you can file for another patent. So if these cars are economically feasible - there should be a big rush to get a patent on something like it (and then get enough financial backing to mass produce it...which seems to be a huge challenge... and then there is the effort of changing the entire system to electric cars... gas stations are owned by oil companies right?))

[The_Toecutter]

Now where will the POWER come from?
(How many nuke, coal, wind, solar, wave/Hydro, Methane, trash burning etc. POWER PLANTS have to be built to support only ONE car per 4 people? How many to switch the entire fleet in the USA?)

As our infrastructure exists today, we could support more than 100 million on-road EVs in America with our current power generating facilities. How?

Over 90% of the time, an electric car will be charging at home at night when the person or people that uses it is asleep. Peak electricity demand is during the daytime, and at night, much of our electricity is wasted because when powerplants are run at less than their peak load, they become less efficient. Tens of millions of Americans plugging in at night would drastically increase overall efficiency.

Switching half the truck and personal auto miles to electrified transport would require an increase in electric generation capacity of only 10 percent.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A17039-2004Jun4.html

As of today, on peak electricity demand is 90% of capacity.

Not only that, but during on peak demand, an electric vehicle has the potential to allow its owner to sell power back to the grid at a higher price, which would be a few cents more per kWh to account for the discharge cycle of the battery plus some profit. AC Propulsion specifically has demonstrated its vehicle to grid concept, as outlined in the following links:

http://www.acpropulsion.com/Veh_Grid_Power/Veh_grid_power.htm
http://www.acpropulsion.com/Veh_Grid_Power/V2G%20Final%20Report%20R5.pdf


The only problem is that we have to tell the oilies, the federal government, and the auto industry, to go fuck themselves, mean it, and put are goddamned money where our mouth is. We need to get off our asses and get to work now, or peak oil will set in and make such a prospect utterly impossible. The technology exists, it has been repeatedly demonstrated, it works, people use it all the time, and it is the politics and the stupidity of the media-influenced masses(they can't know any better when they're manipulated) that keep it out of the mainstream. But I'm a pessimist. I don't think we will change soon enough.



Regardless of EVs though, our electric grid will continue to get more and more strained. EVs wouldn't be a drop in the bucket for this problem, hair dryers, refrigirators, light bulbs, and ceiling fans are much more taxing on the grid than hundreds of millions of electric cars would be, and we need to start using more wind and solar. Wind, even without subsidy, is now cheaper than coal with subsidy per kWh, and if many powerplants are placed over varied areas, it could become one of our main sources, using coal and natural gas as backup only when weather is bad in all the areas the wind plants are located. Solar energy, if you get rid of the subsidies to the nuclear industry, is now competitive with 60s and 70s era nuclear plants in cost.

But wind and solar energy doesn't need to be mined, extracted, shipped, refined, shipped again, and finally burned/consumed, all processes of which the coal, nuclear, oil, and natural gas industries pass onto the consumer with a little profit added in each step(For instance, coal costs $.05 per kWh to generate, but often people are charged $.08 up to even $.20 for that kWh). Wind and solar allow decentralization, and if units were produced in mass for hundreds of millions of people, they could generate their own power, making them independent from the big industries, and free gfrom having to pay for someone's profit margins. No wonder Dick Cheney's energy policy meeting transcripts are classified.

On top of that, we need to reduce energy consumption. Flourescent lightbulbs, more efficient computers and entertainment centers, air conditioners, and other measures need to be adopted ASAP if we wish to maintain some small semblence of our current lifestyle, or it will be too late to keep it when oil prices rear their ugly head in the form of inflation.

e got about 5 years. No more. The time for our government to get to work is now, and they aren't budging.

[The_Toecutter]

lexan windows are a poor chioce as they will become abraded and "foggy" in short time (2-3 years).

keep glass unless you need THICK lexan pullet proofing etc.

Bulletproofing is one of the reasons I want lexan, that and a weight reduction. The fog isn't too much of a worry. The glass windshiled will stay glass though.

nice project car, but I'm bit worried that your floor-boards disintagrated...how'd that happen?

No paint on the floor, plus humidity seeped in. Doesn't take long on a Triumph!

The good news is that the floorboards aren't important to the car's safety in this particular model, and it's very easy/inconsequential to weld in new ones. If it were the bulkhead, *then* I'd worry, as that would be something I could not repair myself, is paramount to the structural integrity and safety of the vehicle, and would be horrendously expensive to fix. But the bulkhead's still in perfect condition.

[The_Toecutter]

When does that patent Chevron-Texaco bought expire?

IIRC, around 2020(give or take 3 years, don't remember the exact date). However, if they're still around and all those that head their company haven't been hung and shredded to pieces by angry mobs by then, they'll just keep renewing it. These people are a big part of the cause of the peak problem, and all they want is for it to happen so their profits shoot up even more. EVs, wind, solar, biomass, ect. all threaten them and their bought government.

[aahala]

I agree the US has quite a bit of off-peak generation and line capacity not now being used.

It's a pipe dream that we could recharge half the present car and truck
fleet each night -- electricity doesn't just magically appear because you
stick the plug in the socket. Fuel or energy of some sort must be used
to produce the electricty and to replace half present useage is the
equivalent of 4-5 million barrels of oil daily.

It is also pretty fanciful someone could charge a car battery at night,
then make a profit by discharging the current back into the grid at peak
and make a profit. The utilities have much more efficient shortage means
than a car battery, they would never buy at peak rates if that worked
and unlike the home user, the utilities could have a lot less line loss.

[The_Toecutter]

It's a pipe dream that we could recharge half the present car and truck
fleet each night -- electricity doesn't just magically appear because you
stick the plug in the socket. Fuel or energy of some sort must be used
to produce the electricty and to replace half present useage is the
equivalent of 4-5 million barrels of oil daily.

Actually, EVs are far more efficient than gas cars. Well to wheels, they are about 3 times more efficient on a gge basis. It would be more like 1-2 million barrels a day equivalent energy usage, but the energy wouldn't be coming from oil to begin with.

Of course you will need to burn more energy. But unlike oil, be have enough coal to buy us about 10-20 years time, plus wind is very capable of meeting much of our needs, with coal and natural acting as a backup. Add to that a reduction in energy consumption with better insulation, more efficient lighting, more efficient appliances, building appliances to last longer so less overall oil is used per hour of operation(it takes oil to produce these things), keeping these appliances instead of disposing of them when the next new gadget comes along, and we could have a chance at staving off, or at least, significantly reducing the problems we face. I don't feel it will happen, but is it feasable, yes. The third world wants some of the Earth's resources, too. But the greedy asses here don't want to change, and will perpetuate this to the end, even if it means a huge dieoff that the worst of the worrywarts predict. At the least, peak will end up causing chronic economic depression...

It is also pretty fanciful someone could charge a car battery at night,
then make a profit by discharging the current back into the grid at peak
and make a profit. The utilities have much more efficient shortage means
than a car battery, they would never buy at peak rates if that worked
and unlike the home user, the utilities could have a lot less line loss.

Of course, during the 2003 blackout, even those shortage means were exhausted. Electric cars could have severely helped that problem. I know three people that have use their electric car to keep their lights and even refrigirators and TVs on in their house for days straight when their power was knocked out during hurricaines and storms.

If the utilities have no choice, they would buy at peak rates if their grid is overtaxed. And people would still pay it, as well.

[RG73]

Stop with this inane techno solutions.

It still takes oil to build an electric car. It takes oil to pave the roads. Oil for the tires. Oil for the plastic components. Oil to transport the components. Etc, etc.

Here's a simpler solution: a bike. Problem solved.

All the electric car does is prolong the life of suburban America--which is the major drain on capital, oil, water, electricity and every other resource out there. Why do you want to save suburbia?

Who cares if you can build an electric car? A car is a waste of resources which most of us don't actually need. Rail. Public transport. Bikes. Walking. Compact cities, no sprawl. Problem solved. This electric car is an 11th hour attempt to save the wasteful American way of life.

[MicroHydro]

The_Toecutter,

Once you master this conversion business, you should turn pro. I wouldn't mind an electric Smart Roadster. They have been discontinued by Daimler, so should be falling in value. And they only weigh 790 kg, so quite light to begin with.

[The_Toecutter]

It still takes oil to build an electric car. It takes oil to pave the roads. Oil for the tires. Oil for the plastic components. Oil to transport the components. Etc, etc.

Indeed. But many times more is burned up in internal combustion engines. Say we cut oil consumption from automobiles by 80%, from plastics with use of biomass by 30%, in commerical airplanes by replacing them with high speed electric rail systems by reducing air travel and thus consumption associated with planes by 80%.

you've just cut the majority of oil consumption, with some left for industrial processes still reliant on them. It'll buy us two decades to work out a few more solutions.

Here's a simpler solution: a bike. Problem solved.

I agree. But a bike isn't for everyone, and unlike Europe, this goddamned country refuses to make a halfassed practical infrastructure of bike lanes. If I wouldn't have to worry about getting run over by cars going 40 miles per hour, I too would bike, and my car once built would be strictly relegated to the racetrack for sport. But again, if a frog had wings it wouldn't bump its ass. It's currently illegal in my city to bike on the sidewalks, and the streets are too dangerous. On two seperate occassions has some asshole's passenger side mirror grazed my side. Biking is out for me until people can't afford gas.

All the electric car does is prolong the life of suburban America--which is the major drain on capital, oil, water, electricity and every other resource out there. Why do you want to save suburbia?

Believe it or not, I don't want to save suburbia. Expansion onto publically held lands needs to cease. But the auto is not responsible for that. Stupidity and gluttony of people seeking to make money is, who then advertise to people such a lifestyle and telling them they want it, instead of letting them decide for themselves. Cars could function well in a sustainable society, not as a necessity, but as a form of fun. But until mass transit comes back, an electric car becoming mainstream would drastically improve our situation.

Who cares if you can build an electric car? A car is a waste of resources which most of us don't actually need.

It's not a waste if it's only viable option around for 90% of the population at the moment, and they're too stupid to see otherwise. At least the electric car is ecologically sustainable if applied correctly and in the case it replaces gas guzzlers.

Rail. Public transport. Bikes. Walking. Compact cities, no sprawl.

Agreed. The auto industry unfortunately tore all the public transit down in the 40s, and the overbloated government is more concerned about fighting an illegal oil war with our hard earned tax dollars.

Problem solved. This electric car is an 11th hour attempt to save the wasteful American way of life.

Not necessarily. an electric car, well to wheels, counting in powerplant losses, transmission losses, charger losses, and battery losses has a gallon of gasoline equivalent to about 100 miles per gallon. SUVs will fare worse at about 40-50, aerodynamic sports cars better at about 120-140. A faring covered bicycle that utilizes the principles of laminar flow could achieve about 1,000 mpg, gge, which would be much better, but not for everyone. A high performance motorcycle could be made of something like that though.

You'd be amazed at the advancements made in aerodynamics. Human powered vehicles have achieved speeds of 100 mph on only about 500 watts of human pedal power, being bicycles using the most advanced aerodynamic principles. But they are inherently unsafe. I may end up building one because they look like fun:

http://www.speed101.com/

Personal mobility does not have to be limited to small areas. We can live with cars, we just have to drastically reduce the consumption associated with them by having them last 20-30 years, be fully recyclable, and energy efficient. But I do agree with the concept and the need for local production of things like food and such.

[The_Toecutter]

I wouldn't mind an electric Smart Roadster. They have been discontinued by Daimler, so should be falling in value. And they only weigh 790 kg, so quite light to begin with.

And if you remove the transmission and free up space in the transmission tunnel and go direct drive, you lower maintenance even more and free up a shitload of battery room you otherwise wouldn't have in such a car. They are also decent in aerodynamics. Forget the roadster, I like the coupe version of the Smart sportscar. It's like a poorman's Lotus Elise.

[strider3700]

why did they kill the smart roadster? It's not available over hear and I would have seriously thought about one if it was here.

Back on topic though, your's is definitely a cool project. I've been wanting to try my hand at building a heavy hybrid conversion to a big old 4x4 but don't have the extra cash at the moment.

Make sure you keep us up to date.

[The_Toecutter]

There's another electric sportscar out there, I'll try to find the link. Unfortunately, it's also quite exclusive, but very nicely designed.

Actually, there are many.

Mendo Motive Porsche Spyder
AC Propuslion TZero
Venturi Fetish
Zytec Lotus Elise
Renaissance Tropica

Among others. Sure, some may be prototypes or no longer produced, but a mass production scenario would cause prices to drop, and usher in an environmentally benign golden age of automotive performance. But there's the politics around electric cars, of which I made another topic on.

[Roop]

Toecutter,

I really like your plans for converting the Triumph into an electric car. I've been doing a little reading up on EVs myself. I agree that if we are going to keep the private automobile in any way then EVs are the way to go, or perhaps diesel/electric plug-in hybrids. Even still, I think that private automobile usage should be greatly decreased and some real money should be invested in public transit, preferably light rail. That said, I have been a car guy my whole life so the Peak Oil thing has kind of knocked me on my ass in that respect and made me question my life-long love of cars. Of course being able to continue my car hobby is the least of my worries with Peak Oil breathing down our neck. Good thing my Autoweek subscription just expired.

I'm mainly into driving and fixing old Saabs. I've been kicking around the idea of eventually converting my 1970 Saab 96 into an EV:



Right now there's no way I could afford to do it but may be interesting at some point down the road provided things don't get too bad too fast. I'm thinking that an electric set-up like the type used to convert a VW Beetle may work. The layout of the Saab is the same, longitudally mounted engine with transaxle behind it, albeit front engine/front drive:



People have converted the Saab 96 to an EV before. I've been trying to find photos on the internet of one that was built around 10 years ago and dubbed "Sparky". The advantages that is has are light weight (2000 lbs), robust construction, and ample room for batteries. There has been discussion lately on the VSaab internet mailing list about electric conversions, and someone suggested these two set-ups designed for the Beetle:

'E-Volks' City Electric Car Kit

[URL=http://www.e-volks.com/about.html2.html]
'E-Volks'highway kit [/URL]

[The_Toecutter]

I'd be wary of E-Volk's claims. Go ahead and plug their numbers into a Puekert's calculator and you will find they are exagerrating quite a bit.

Your Saab 96 would make a great conversion. Lots of battery room, light, very aerodynamic. Coefficient drag in the .30 region, like the Saab 92. It could be lowered much further.



I'm glad you know about Sparky. It was a Tour De Sol entry repeatedly through the mid 90s.

http://www.foveal.com/ATdS_Report_1994.txt

At the other extreme (sponsorship-wise) is Christen Johansen, an
architect in Manhattan who converted a Saab 96 V-4 to a 96 V system called "Sparky", used as a weekend runabout. He considers it a "detached hybrid"; he claims that for vacations and such he will tow this EV Saab behind his Saab 900 Turbo, and then use the EV for short hops. He used a Saab because he was thoroughly familiar with the car and likes the body style. Advanced DC 9.1 inch motor, Curtis PCM controller. $4500 went into the restoration of the car (which was a basket case) and $6500 into the EV components. Took 1.5 years, most weekends, finishing up 3 weeks ago. Christen quotes 60 miles/charge highway, 30 city (which sounds backwards to me, but that is what he said.)

http://www.foveal.com/ATdS_Report_1996.txt

NESEA American Tour de Sol: Team Profile - `Sparky 2'

Immediately after interviewing the people with `Sparky' (number 39) from Virginia, I ran into Christen Johansen with `Sparky 2' (number 38) from New York City. `Sparky 2' is run by a team known as "Wooster's Charge" from the Wooster School in Danbury CT. They were also in the 1995 NESEA Tour when we went from Waterbury CT to Portland ME. Christen was a member of the Wooster Class of '68, and so he loans the car to them for the race. Why `2' you ask? Because their race application form arrived later than that for the Virginia team.
The vehicle is a conversion of a 1972 Saab 96, picked because of "my family's need for commuter transportation and fond memories of my first car. The conversion ... to electric power was a practical means to [avoid] maintaining a twenty-five-year-old engine." Originally it had a 96 Volt battery pack. That was extended to 120 Volts in 1995 to get the additional range needed for the race (at the expensive of the back seat), and this year a new Curtis PMC 1231C controller increases the power and efficiency. An Advanced DC FB1-4001A motor connects to the Saab 4 speed manual transmission (with the free wheel position; remember that?). It weighs in at 3080 pounds.
I'm discovering that the EV world is highly interconnected. At one time Christen had planned to carry the extra batteries needed to go from 96 to 120 Volts in a trailer that would roll behind the car. "The more I thought about it and that shift weight in the back, the less attractive that idea became to me. I decided to put the extra batteries on board. However, I sold that trailer to Fred Whitridge of the Blue Sky Club (who entered his converted VW Cabrolet in the 1995 NESEA Tour) and that's what he ran last year. He did OK with that, but we came in just one ahead of him. Maybe that was the difference." Christen still thinks he is better off keeping everything on board and keeping the added weight low and between the wheels.



I like the 96, but I think it could have used a horsepower boost. It was so low, like a Citroen 2CV. But then again, not everyone likes high horsepower like I do. The 96 and the 2CV were sort of counter to the gas guzzling Detroit iron of the time. Although there would be no shame in making a very fast sleeper EV out of one for the stoplights and drag strip, that would take additional money.

If your goal is a cheap highway capable conversion, you could do that just fine. as an added bonus, flooded lead acid batteries are about 1/2 the cost per mile of sealed lead acid batteries. An $800 pack would last 20,000-25,000 miles or 5 years, whichever comes first, before it has only 80% of its original rated capaicty. The downsife with flooded lead acid batteries, as opposed to the valve regulated sealed lead acid I will be using, is that floodeds leak acid and need routine watering every month, flooded must be positioned upright, and they must be placed in accessable locations so you can get to them. If the pack is sized properly, however, floodeds could give you about 15-20% more range per pound over sealed. As a general rule of thumb, if your max range will be consumed in less than an hour of driving, you'll get batter range per pound with sealed, if yuor max range will be used in over an hour, you'll get better range with flooded. Sealed will give you lots of horsepower, while flooded will not. floodeds will give you about 40 peak horsepower for a 1200 pound pack, while 1200 pounds of Optimas or Orbitals sealed lead acid would give you over 400 horsepower, only under the condition your motor and controller can make use of it! Needless to say, my controller is my limiting factor for my performance I will get.