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THE Easter Island Thread (merged)

Re: THIS is the end. Peak Earth. Easter Island #2

Unread postby lorenzo » Mon 14 Jul 2008, 11:18:47

Also, let's not forget that this report comes from the British Government.

The Brits can't stand the idea that they are losing their grip on the world and that their energy resources are gone. They go crazy over the idea that the countries of the South are taking over.

The Brits will use all possible forms of Green Imperialism to prevent a country like Brazil from becoming more powerful than the UK, because it owns huge land, biomass, water, agro-ecological and energy resources.

That's why they are now pushing all kinds of ideas like localism, rights for indigenous communities, the environmental footprint of agriculture, etc... in order to block progress in these countries.

Luckily, a country like Brazil no longer gives a fvkk about what the UK thinks. Because it doesn't have to. It works with the Chinese, with the South Africans, with the Indians. With the societies of the future.


Seriously, Green Imperialism is one of the newest ways used by the West to try to keep rivals down. Until recently, the Human Rights discourse played the same imperialist role.
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Re: THIS is the end. Peak Earth. Easter Island #2

Unread postby coyote » Mon 14 Jul 2008, 11:22:09

lorenzo wrote:Do you honestly think top scientists are so stupid as to not to include this question in their research?

Starting to wonder...
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Re: THIS is the end. Peak Earth. Easter Island #2

Unread postby shortonoil » Mon 14 Jul 2008, 11:54:37

lorenzo said:

Do you honestly think top scientists are so stupid as to not to include this question in their research?


Yes of course, that must be Plan B. We are all familiar with Plan B.

Didn’t Simmons say we don’t have a Plan B. Silly guy! TOP scientist couldn’t have forgotten to include Plan B! Some knuckled headed grad student probably just forgot to include it in the report!
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Re: THIS is the end. Peak Earth. Easter Island #2

Unread postby coyote » Mon 14 Jul 2008, 11:59:13

I wonder what the effect of peak oil will be on this issue. My intuition has long told me that the plunge of energy availability would launch the greatest scramble to "develop" resources the world has ever seen - forests included. But certain things have been trending slightly away from that: for one thing, the world is catching on to the ethanol/biofuel scam much more quickly than I would have thought possible. I always figured people would do anything to get their fuel, but maybe not if that fuel is competing with food. For another thing, Heineken and others are reporting that timber is doing poorly because of fuel prices. Timber is an energy-intensive industry, and the runup of fuel prices may ultimately make it more difficult for developers to even get at some of the remoter regions of the wild.

Things like these give me some slight hope. If some of the forests can survive this century, it will mean the world to our descendents.
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Re: THIS is the end. Peak Earth. Easter Island #2

Unread postby coyote » Mon 14 Jul 2008, 12:01:38

pstarr, we're on the same page. I hope you're right.
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Re: THIS is the end. Peak Earth. Easter Island #2

Unread postby Specop_007 » Mon 14 Jul 2008, 12:18:26

lorenzo wrote:I'd kindly like to call serious BS on this.

Scientists (that is: not ideologues), have found that:

-by 2050, when population stands at 9 billion
-we can produce enough food, fodder, fiber and forest products
-to meet demand
-while having enough land left to grow biomass for the production of 1500 Exajoules worth of energy (that is: 4 times as much energy as we consume on the planet today)
-without cutting a single tree (a strict no-deforestation scenario), and while keeping 10% of all land on the planet as conservation areas

The scenario I refer to - made by the Copernicus Institute - is now the official backbone of the FAO's projection models on food, fiber, fodder and fuel potential.


It sounds like a wishy washy pipe dream to me.

I'd like a link tot he study if you have it.
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Re: THIS is the end. Peak Earth. Easter Island #2

Unread postby aflurry » Mon 14 Jul 2008, 12:41:52

Specop_007 wrote:Hell, my 7 year old now probably knows more about gardening then 3/4 of our subdivision. :)


agriculture is every bit part of the problem in this context.
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Re: THIS is the end. Peak Earth. Easter Island #2

Unread postby Snowrunner » Mon 14 Jul 2008, 12:46:21

aflurry wrote:
Specop_007 wrote:Hell, my 7 year old now probably knows more about gardening then 3/4 of our subdivision. :)


agriculture is every bit part of the problem in this context.
Actually I think our blind faith in "Science" is the big part of the problem.

We've cheated our way through a lot of things these past six decades and now finally the bill is being presented.

But that's where I do see the biggest problem too: we have destroyed a lot of farm land with "modern agriculture", in a way that is no longer sustainable, much less so once the cheap carbon is gone.

Reading "The Omnivores Dilemma" recently it just hit home just how screwed we are, forget about not having gas or diesel to truck the "food" to the supermarket. We're screwed right at the beginnig of the foodchain where the corn is grown.
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Re: THIS is the end. Peak Earth. Easter Island #2

Unread postby Specop_007 » Mon 14 Jul 2008, 13:25:41

aflurry wrote:
Specop_007 wrote:Hell, my 7 year old now probably knows more about gardening then 3/4 of our subdivision. :)


agriculture is every bit part of the problem in this context.


Thats the problem, and dont take this the wrong way...

Those on the outside of the agricultural system dont really understand how it works. Its similiar to telling a structural engineer the problem with buildings is they all can collapse in high wind. Well, theres different ways to build a building...

By the same token, theres different ways to farm. Many farmers even in America are moving to a more sustainable farming practice.

Just because slah and burn is bad doesnt mean every farmer is practicing it.

My son can tell you some plants are friends and some are not friends, and you should plant friends together. He can tell you some prefer to be planted in cooler periods (Summer, fall) and some prefer to be planted in the dead of summer.

The point is to understand theres many ways to farm and promote those that are environmentally friendly while maximizing yields.
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Re: THIS is the end. Peak Earth. Easter Island #2

Unread postby Specop_007 » Mon 14 Jul 2008, 13:28:33

Snowrunner wrote:
aflurry wrote:
Specop_007 wrote:Hell, my 7 year old now probably knows more about gardening then 3/4 of our subdivision. :)


agriculture is every bit part of the problem in this context.
Actually I think our blind faith in "Science" is the big part of the problem.

We've cheated our way through a lot of things these past six decades and now finally the bill is being presented.

But that's where I do see the biggest problem too: we have destroyed a lot of farm land with "modern agriculture", in a way that is no longer sustainable, much less so once the cheap carbon is gone.

Reading "The Omnivores Dilemma" recently it just hit home just how screwed we are, forget about not having gas or diesel to truck the "food" to the supermarket. We're screwed right at the beginnig of the foodchain where the corn is grown.


Land is amazing resilient.

It only asks for one thing, the one which we cannot give it.

Time.
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Re: THIS is the end. Peak Earth. Easter Island #2

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Mon 14 Jul 2008, 14:29:02

lorenzo wrote:
Do you honestly think top scientists are so stupid as to not to include this question in their research?
They are not stupid but rather deluded.
For example they are expecting phosphorus fertilizer to last forever, they are forgetting about soil erosion, they are forgetting water shortages, they are assuming for pesticides and herbicides to be available in ever increasing quantities, they are assuming oil for running agriculture machinery to be here forever etc.
Plain delusion.
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Re: THIS is the end. Peak Earth. Easter Island #2

Unread postby hermit » Mon 14 Jul 2008, 14:53:32

No-Oil wrote:I think you will find that the Easter Islanders survived because some bloke called Cook turned up in a space ship, well a Naval Ship & rescued them.

I don't know where you found that, but you should return it for a refund.
Cook had little influence on the development of the Island, although his observations are important archaeologically.
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Re: THIS is the end. Peak Earth. Easter Island #2

Unread postby BlisteredWhippet » Mon 14 Jul 2008, 15:11:04

ohanian wrote:Relax, if the people of Easter Island can survive by (1) Killing their enemies

This really isn't a bad idea.
All hand wringing aside, if we prioritize sustainability, then forest-destroying is a new super no-no.

Who says don't cut that tree down? The United States military.
What is the penalty for noncompliance? A cruise missle up your ass.

The alternative, so far as I can tell, is the moral and environmental relativism of liberal advocacy. The other alternative is NGOs, corporations, and global diplomacy.

Sadly, though, I don't see it happening since corporate leadership on moral imperatives isn't compatible with corporate ethics. Corporate leadership tends to dilute grand moral imperatives and purpose. These are functions of governments.

Activism is dead, and the hippies have been emasculated. The best they can do is hang some banners, get pepper sprayed, and maybe chain themselves to a few specimens.

I militant environmentalism is long overdue, I'm afraid. The Neo-pacifists in the upper echelons of the Eco movement will have to be swept aside. Militancy and advocacy has to be institutionalized.
This shift in consciousness will be impossible.

Therefore, we will have to call the A*Team.
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Re: THIS is the end. Peak Earth. Easter Island #2

Unread postby Fredrik » Mon 14 Jul 2008, 15:44:08

BlisteredWhippet, you'd probably approve of the ideas of Pentti Linkola who I got my signatures from. I don't go as far as he does, but ethics aside, the violent anti-humanist argument is cogent.
As a philosopher Linkola can be described as a biocentric empiricist. He demands that man return to a smaller ecological niche and abandon modern technology and the pursuit of economic growth. -- Linkola is a misanthropist who blames humans for the destruction of the environment and he has promoted ideas such as genocide for saving the environment and to keep the population in control. -- He has admired Stalinist and Nazi massacres.
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Re: THIS is the end. Peak Earth. Easter Island #2

Unread postby nobodypanic » Mon 14 Jul 2008, 16:24:22

pstarr wrote: People will flock with great rapidity into the cities for a bit of food and companionship. The country will empty out and nature will return.

and for an individual that's the time to flock right back out. once the countryside is emptied of people for any good length of time, she'll rebound with a vengeance.
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Re: THIS is the end. Peak Earth. Easter Island #2

Unread postby lorenzo » Mon 14 Jul 2008, 20:56:59

pstarr wrote:So it's 'Green Imperialism' that prevents the 3rd world from realizing it's biofuel dream? Why wouldn't BP want a piece? Didn't BP get in and then get out of this scam?

Well, if you know a bit about the developing world, then yes, you'd know what they think of Green Imperialism. Ask the Brazilians.
Or ask the Congolese. They're waiting until the EU liberalises its market, so that they can export food instead of importing it.
Really, the West's attitudes towards global agriculture have been catastrophic, killing hundreds of millions of people.
Luckily, the South is now going to trade amongst itself, because China and India are more rational partners.

But back to the science. Pstarr should be one of the people knowing which report I'm referring to.
The good thing is that no propaganda nor any intimidation effort will destroy the science. It stands and will forever stand.
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