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The Desperate Airline Tactics Thread (merged)

How to save energy through both societal and individual actions.

Airline Short-Selling "Off the Charts"

Unread postby Guest » Sat 04 Sep 2004, 11:22:16

http://www.investors.com/breakingnews.a ... 3181&brk=1

Draw your own conclusions as to why this is so.
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Re: Airline Short-Selling "Off the Charts"

Unread postby JayHMorrison » Sat 04 Sep 2004, 14:44:13

Anonymous wrote:http://www.investors.com/breakingnews.asp?journalid=22953181&brk=1

Draw your own conclusions as to why this is so.


This has come up in one of the investing threads. They are all in weakened shape post 9/11.

But Oil prices are just 1 variable.

The main airlines that are likely to goto BK in the near future are:

Delta (DAL)
US Airways (UAIR)

United is already in BK.

The old legacy carriers cannot compete with Southwest and Jetblue, and other discounters. The added weight of older work forces, heavy underfunded pension plans, and hub/spoke business model, all of these reasons are the cause for some of these airlines to be going down.

Oil/Jet fuel is just one variable. Southwest and Jetblue are profitable with oil at these prices.

I am currently short Delta, US Airways and American Airlines. American will be in trouble next year if current trends persist.
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Unread postby Aaron » Sat 04 Sep 2004, 17:54:28

My friends at Continental tell me they are in the same boat
The problem is, of course, that not only is economics bankrupt, but it has always been nothing more than politics in disguise... economics is a form of brain damage.

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Unread postby Barbara » Sat 04 Sep 2004, 18:41:35

Alitalia said they are going bankruptcy in next 20 days. :(
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Unread postby goldfishbowl42 » Mon 06 Sep 2004, 09:07:47

Airline Industries will be the first victims of peak oil.

It is rediculously fuel costly to carry a person by plane. Plus the Airlines do not pay fuel taxes so they have been running at costs closely tied to the traditional price of fuel, and when crude rises, so does aviation fuel with no Tax buffer to soften the blow.

In Europe, even though we pay high taxes on car fuel, our airlines get their fuel tax free so will be just as badly hit as the US airlines.






PS, could someone explain short-selling to me. It sounds like people betting against a company doing well. How would that work ??!! :oops:
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Unread postby k_semler » Mon 06 Sep 2004, 09:30:55

Short definition:

Selling a security that you don't own, in the hope that the price will decrease before you buy it back. When you short sell you are borrowing the security from another investor, this means you could be required to buy the security back and return it at any time, you are also required to pay the lender any dividends or distributions that the security makes while you are borrowing it. The seller must declare a short sale when placing the order.

http://www.optionslearning.com/glossaries/s.htm

Long Definition:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_selling
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Unread postby trespam » Mon 06 Sep 2004, 09:35:13

goldfishbowl42 wrote:Airline Industries will be the first victims of peak oil.

It is rediculously fuel costly to carry a person by plane. Plus the Airlines


I think I've read that for long-distance travel (e.g. coast-to-coast in the US), with the plane full, plane travel is as fuel-economical as train or car. Flying between San Diego and Los Angeles, for example, a hundred miles or so, is very inefficient. The plane barely gets in the air before it comes back down. But for long-distance, I think it's pretty fuel efficient.

In the future, I expect air travel to become much more expensive. The economies of scale will start disappearing as people fly. Then all the fixed expenses will be averaged over a lot less flights.


goldfishbowl42 wrote:PS, could someone explain short-selling to me. It sounds like people betting against a company doing well. How would that work ??!! :oops:


Essentially you borrow the stock from someone, pay them interest, and then sell the stock. You believe the stock will do down. If it does, you buy it back for less and pocket the difference. If it goes up, you're out of money. It's a very dangerous game to play.

One can also play a similar game in the options market. There your losses are capped.[/quote]
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Unread postby goldfishbowl42 » Mon 06 Sep 2004, 09:46:44

Thanks for that, http://www.optionslearning.com/ is a pretty useful website aswell.

[smilie=eusa_clap.gif]
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Unread postby goldfishbowl42 » Mon 06 Sep 2004, 10:03:37

I think I've read that for long-distance travel (e.g. coast-to-coast in the US), with the plane full, plane travel is as fuel-economical as train or car. Flying between San Diego and Los Angeles, for example, a hundred miles or so, is very inefficient. The plane barely gets in the air before it comes back down. But for long-distance, I think it's pretty fuel efficient.



This is the Amount of energy used by different forms of transport in kilojoules, to move 1 tonne over 1 kilometer.

Rail - 677
Sea - 423
Road - 2,890
Air - 15,839


(From a book called Green Alternatives to Globalisation by Michael Woodin and Caroline Lucas, available at www.plutobooks.com)


It Ilustrates why we need to maintain and look after our rail networks across the western world.
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Unread postby JayHMorrison » Mon 06 Sep 2004, 10:56:37

goldfishbowl42 wrote:This is the Amount of energy used by different forms of transport in kilojoules, to move 1 tonne over 1 kilometer.

Rail - 677
Sea - 423
Road - 2,890
Air - 15,839

It Ilustrates why we need to maintain and look after our rail networks across the western world.


Or build more oceans... :-)
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Unread postby lotrfan55345 » Mon 06 Sep 2004, 18:06:06

The total # of hours I was flying on an airplane this summer was roughly 34-35 hours. Imagine all the fuel I used... Hahaha

Most of those hours came from 6000 mile trans-pacific flights so I guess it was kinda efficent. (I'm sure than it's more efficient than riding some sort of Diesel boat for two months...
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Desperate Airline Seeks To Become Flying Casino

Unread postby BabyPeanut » Thu 03 Nov 2005, 20:25:55

"Free" as in "don't pay too much attention to where the money is coming from"
Onboard gambling may lead to free flights on Ryanair (link)
By Michael Harrison, Business Editor - The Independent (Online Edition)
Published: 03 November 2005

Passengers on Ryanair could one day fly for free if revenues from onboard gambling and other services end the need for it to charge fares, the chief executive of the airline has predicted.
But wait! There's More!
Mr O'Leary lashed out at those who criticised Ryanair's flight give-aways for fuelling the rise in aircraft carbon emissions.

He said: "We want to annoy the f****** whenever we can. The best thing we can do with environmentalists is shoot them. These headbangers want to make air travel the preserve of the rich. They are Luddites marching us back to the 18th century."

Reminds me of this quote: "There simply is no rational business plan we can continue to operate under with fuel at the price it is today," Jim May, the association's chief executive, said in an interview with CNBC.
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Re: Desperate Airline Seeks To Become Flying Casino

Unread postby Wildwell » Fri 04 Nov 2005, 07:23:43

O’Leary has clearly lost it. Most people think this story is a joke, but on further examination it turns out to be true. Perhaps O’Leary thinks travel should became like a smokey Irish gambling den, where everyone sits round with a pint of Guinness or ale, coupled with raucous laughter and jollity. Some people’s idea of bliss, others horror!

Ryanair are no strangers to controversy.

To most office workers, recharging a mobile phone barely registers among the perks of nine-to-five life. But the Irish low-cost airline Ryanair has sealed its reputation for parsimony by banning its staff from using chargers on the grounds that they amount to theft of its electricity.

The edict, which has infuriated employees and trade unions, will save the airline an estimated 1.4p for each charge. But even if all its 2,600 staff plugged in their phones at once, the bill of £28.60 would scarcely dent the company's annual profits of €226m (£154m).

Its success has been masterminded by a belligerent, rugby-loving chief executive, Michael O'Leary, who has a taste for profanity and a mission to make air travel available to the masses, rather than merely to "rich fuckers". He once summed up his business philosophy by claiming that with air fares as low as 99p, passengers had little right to complain.

Using the internet at Ryanair's head office is strongly discouraged, which is not surprising because a rash of Ryanair websites has spread across the internet for staff to write anonymously about their discontent.

The bitterness and vitriol expressed by staff online has concerned the company so much that it has applied for a high court injunction to unmask the identities of employees posting messages on one such site.

Shay Cody, the deputy general secretary of the Irish trade union Impact, said: "Ryanair are absolutely on their own - they're unique. They are extremely hostile to the workforce and to any attempt to organise the workforce. It's a very, very oppressive regime there and they have extremely high staff turnover, particularly among junior pilots and cabin crew."

Such is the concern about working conditions that the International Transport Workers' Federation has urged air travellers to think hard about Ryanair's employment policies before booking tickets.

A source at one pilots' association said: "Essentially, when you look at Ryanair you've got to forget about conventional business models and think about the nature of what a 'cost' is. You've got to stop thinking about employees as people who have rights - they're a resource which flows through the organisation and when you're done with them, you get rid of them."

Source (http://www.guardian.co.uk/mobile/articl ... 85,00.html )

The thorny issue of climate change has left most airlines bending over backwards to sound green. But Europe's largest low-cost carrier, Ryanair, has dismissed its environmentally nervous rivals as "lemmings".

Ryanair's chief executive, Michael O'Leary, has refused to support an industry-wide effort to limit carbon dioxide emissions. Asked yesterday what he would say to travellers worried about the environment, he replied: "I'd say, sell your car and walk.

The Green party are obviously very critical of Ryanair’s attitudes.

http://www.greenparty.org.uk/groupednews/r=group%3D2

Overall aviation is a whisker from getting aviation tax added to curb cheap flights, and O’Leary is doing nothing but making the situation worse with his irrational business plan.
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Re: Desperate Airline Seeks To Become Flying Casino

Unread postby BabyPeanut » Fri 04 Nov 2005, 08:15:06

Wildwell wrote:Most people think this story is a joke, but on further examination it turns out to be true.

Peak Oil vs. Airlines - the joke that writes itself.
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Re: Desperate Airline Seeks To Become Flying Casino

Unread postby Doly » Fri 04 Nov 2005, 10:53:42

Wildwell wrote:Overall aviation is a whisker from getting aviation tax added to curb cheap flights, and O’Leary is doing nothing but making the situation worse with his irrational business plan.


If he has such problems with reality he won't last long.
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OMG! Airline ticket prices!

Unread postby turkishguy » Wed 16 Nov 2005, 14:36:23

Ok, so I looked at some airlines with this option; Istanbul airport to Japan Narita airport.

A return ticket; cheapest price $3200! That is three grand and 2 hundred US dollars.

I really don't like this peak oil thing. I hope everything will be like normal.

Now I can't visit any of my friends around the world.
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Re: OGM! Airline ticket prices!

Unread postby Colorado-Valley » Wed 16 Nov 2005, 15:29:02

You could take the train.

Bus?
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Re: OGM! Airline ticket prices!

Unread postby thuja » Wed 16 Nov 2005, 15:49:04

To Japan? :-D

Yeah I'm seeing tickets overseas go up 40-100 %-- soon only the rich will fly to distant places. Say goodbye to overseas travel middle class... or maybe we'll just put it on the credit card...
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Re: OGM! Airline ticket prices!

Unread postby Heineken » Wed 16 Nov 2005, 21:45:36

The world would be much better off if all air travel ceased immediately. For one thing, the risk of a global epidemic would fall like a rock. For another, it would put a nail in the coffin of globalization, which has devastated human cultures and the environment alike.

The world needs to start getting larger again.
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Re: OMG! Airline ticket prices!

Unread postby Andrew_S » Thu 17 Nov 2005, 02:59:03

turkishguy wrote:Ok, so I looked at some airlines with this option; Istanbul airport to Japan Narita airport.

A return ticket; cheapest price $3200! That is three grand and 2 hundred US dollars.

I really don't like this peak oil thing. I hope everything will be like normal.

Now I can't visit any of my friends around the world.


I wonder how many days it would take to get to the Trans-Siberian railway then across to the Pacific then take a boat across to Japan. Several I should imagine. Or else a boat from Turkey to Japan (at least there's the Suez to take a short cut). Only a few decades ago these were the only alternatives. Distant travel was something really special.
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