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THE Desalination Thread (merged)

Re: Breakthrough in desalinization of water

Unread postby cephalotus » Sun 30 Jun 2013, 13:19:47

In the end the amount of kWh per m³ and the amount of cost per m³ is waht counts.

"99% desalination" (better would be absolute numbers) may be enough for drinking water, but maybe not good enough for watering crops in deserts without avoiding salt built up in the soil.

There are several systems you could use as a reference with low energy needs, for example multi effect distillation:

http://www.ilkdresden.de/index.php?id=1 ... x_news_pi1[news]=1726&tx_news_pi1[controller]=News&tx_news_pi1[action]=detail&cHash=3077f5dcc872558e5a157930cfbbb347

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple-e ... stillation
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Re: Breakthrough in desalinization of water

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Sun 30 Jun 2013, 21:31:05

They don't have 99%, but 20. They don't have M3 but nanoliter (fractions of 1 milliliter) . Announcing at this stage shows they must need money pretty bad.

Appears to be an attempt at resembling osmosis without a filter as such; something which is difficult enough with a filter.
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Re: THE Desalination Thread (merged)

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 20 Nov 2013, 15:37:49

DALLAS, Nov. 12, 2013 /PRNewswire-iReach/ -- The Global Desalination Market 2013-2023 is a recent utility report that says primary drivers of the desalination market are increased urbanisation / industrialisation, water scarcity and inadequate or under maintained water infrastructure.

(Photo: http://photos.prnewswire.com/prnh/20131112/MN14329)

The Global Desalination Market 2013-2023 report analyses how this important market will develop over the next ten years. The report quantifies the market in terms of global size and breaks the market down into key leading countries with forecasts and analysis provided for each of these markets from 2013-2023. The report also examines the major drivers and restraints influencing the market over the next decade and explains the major technologies and developments within the market, analysing which nations will drive capital investment in the desalination sectors.

The Global Desalination Market 2013-2023 report (http://www.reportsnreports.com/reports/ ... -2023.html ) details the prospects for this dynamic utility sector with detailed forecasts from 2013-2023. The report will be valuable to those already involved in the desal market or to those wishing to enter this important market in the future.

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases ... 62291.html

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Re: THE Desalination Thread (merged)

Unread postby kiwichick » Wed 20 Nov 2013, 22:35:16

this may be of interest

CWE on ASX Carnegie

@ asx.com.au

using wave power to pressurize water

yes i own some shares
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Re: THE Desalination Thread (merged)

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Thu 21 Nov 2013, 08:13:33

Our de sal is busy pumping water into the ocean
They planned it pre GFC when the town was booming,(they where expecting a ten fold increase in population and massive tourism) and we were in a decade long drought.
GFC killed the boom
The once in 100 year floods 2 years in a row filled up the aquifers,but the construction was paid for and went on.
You cant have them just sitting there or they rust so on it goes pumping water into the ocean.
It will be interesting to see what makes them turn it off?
We arent going to have another boom,the aquifers will last for decades even it it doesnt rain,meanwhile the running costs of the plant keep ticking over,for no net benefit to anyone but the people getting paid to run it.
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Re: THE Desalination Thread (merged)

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 21 Nov 2013, 10:53:05

Shaved Monkey wrote:Our de sal is busy pumping water into the ocean
They planned it pre GFC when the town was booming,(they where expecting a ten fold increase in population and massive tourism) and we were in a decade long drought.
GFC killed the boom
The once in 100 year floods 2 years in a row filled up the aquifers,but the construction was paid for and went on.
You cant have them just sitting there or they rust so on it goes pumping water into the ocean.
It will be interesting to see what makes them turn it off?
We arent going to have another boom,the aquifers will last for decades even it it doesnt rain,meanwhile the running costs of the plant keep ticking over,for no net benefit to anyone but the people getting paid to run it.


Why not ship the water to someone who wants it? Just stick it in bottles with pretty little labels and people will buy it for a dollar a bottle at the convenience store, genuine D-water, the best you can get totally mineral free blah blah blah sales pitch.
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Re: THE Desalination Thread (merged)

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Thu 21 Nov 2013, 19:13:32

No one round here needs it
Everyone has tank water and dams the town water is just a back up really.
I'd prefer it if it just rusted up and they removed it.
The tourism growth dream died with the high Australian Dollar and Petrol prices and the GFC and cheap flights to Asia.
Dont really want to perpetuate the dead water in plastic industry either.
Quite happy not to have tourists either.
Give it a few years and the protest over running costs should stop it.
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question(s) about water and desalination plants

Unread postby phaster » Wed 19 Feb 2014, 22:20:43

I'm in san diego where we have had a pretty dry winter (hence we're in a drought along w/ the rest of california)

so I'm wondering if any one has modeled or knows of a model of how much energy is required to build and operate desalination plant, as it stands:

Water-related energy use in California also consumes approximately 20 percent of the state’s electricity, and 30 percent of the state’s non-power plant natural gas (i.e. natural gas not used to produce electricity).

-California Energy Commission


basically I'm sure climate change will make california dryer, so kinda interested operational costs and CO2 production of desalination plants
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Re: question(s) about water and desalination plants

Unread postby Lore » Wed 19 Feb 2014, 22:39:52

Aside from having to pay more for your water then you already are and given the choice, why stay in such a parched region of the country while everything around you turns to dust?
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Re: question(s) about water and desalination plants

Unread postby Subjectivist » Wed 19 Feb 2014, 22:56:38

Lore is right, follow in Pops footsteps and abandon California while you can still sell whatever you own there and use the money to restart somewhere else.

As for facts and figures, lots o links in the desalination thread, not sure how many of hem are still current.

the-desalination-thread-merged-t1534-40.html
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Re: question(s) about water and desalination plants

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 19 Feb 2014, 23:36:05

Desal size?

Personal or municipal?

Personal can be had for about $5,000.

Somewhere here recently was a link to a big Aissie desal plant.$25billion, IIRC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desalination
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Re: question(s) about water and desalination plants

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 19 Feb 2014, 23:45:51

Thought you might glean something from this.

http://www.rwlwater.com/saudi-arabia-se ... alination/

Because agriculture is one of the largest consumers of water in the Kingdom, the Gazette adds that the government is abandoning its plans for food security — eventually eliminating government agricultural subsidies — and will rely wholly on imported food sources by 2016.

Desalination reportedly has a significant carbon footprint. Tafline Laylin, writing on Green Prophet, says 90% of the Kingdom’s water supply is created by desalination, “which leaves the Emirate no choice but to find new and innovative solutions to water scarcity that don’t sop up the country’s own energy.” There is increased interest throughout the Gulf states to make desalination more sustainable through using renewable energy sources in the production, such as solar power. Saudi Arabia gets between 200 and 300 hours of sunshine every month.
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Re: question(s) about water and desalination plants

Unread postby phaster » Thu 20 Feb 2014, 03:45:36

Subjectivist wrote:Lore is right, follow in Pops footsteps and abandon California while you can still sell whatever you own there and use the money to restart somewhere else.

As for facts and figures, lots o links in the desalination thread, not sure how many of hem are still current.

the-desalination-thread-merged-t1534-40.html


I am fortunate in that I have a grubsteak here in town that generates a comfortable living and if I keep on managing prudently, its sustainable!

Basically I hope by staying and not bugging out, I can make a difference and restore some integrity to the system and show its possible to run business w/out taking any dishonest short-cuts.
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Re: question(s) about water and desalination plants

Unread postby phaster » Thu 20 Feb 2014, 03:51:42

Newfie wrote:Thought you might glean something from this.

http://www.rwlwater.com/saudi-arabia-se ... alination/

Because agriculture is one of the largest consumers of water in the Kingdom, the Gazette adds that the government is abandoning its plans for food security — eventually eliminating government agricultural subsidies — and will rely wholly on imported food sources by 2016.

Desalination reportedly has a significant carbon footprint. Tafline Laylin, writing on Green Prophet, says 90% of the Kingdom’s water supply is created by desalination, “which leaves the Emirate no choice but to find new and innovative solutions to water scarcity that don’t sop up the country’s own energy.” There is increased interest throughout the Gulf states to make desalination more sustainable through using renewable energy sources in the production, such as solar power. Saudi Arabia gets between 200 and 300 hours of sunshine every month.


in CA I have read that 70% of the water is used for AG

What I am trying to do while I build up my balance sheet, is explore ideas and try and understand the economics so I can come up with a business plan that will be sustainable.

Basically I am just browsing to see what makes sense on large desal systems by large muni systems as well as small and personal systems.
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Re: question(s) about water and desalination plants

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 20 Feb 2014, 05:03:58

The modern allocation of water in California is about 89% agricultural and 11% "other" which includes the water consumed by all residential, institutional, commercial, and industrial activities - all human uses other than agriculture. Then 60% of the "other" category is consumed by lawns and landscaping, which is basically growing the wrong plants in the wrong place. Simply switching to succulents and cacti and other native vegetation would double the available water for the human population.

California also imports water from Oregon, Colorado, and Mexico.

The numbers are different depending upon the basic desalinization process. Reverse osmosis generally takes less energy than steam distillation unless you are using solar heat or waste heat from another application such as a power plant. One could for example design a large nuclear facility to produce both power and distilled water - it's a huge waste to have a cooling tower turning heat into water vapor without condensing the pure distilled water.
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Re: question(s) about water and desalination plants

Unread postby kiwichick » Thu 20 Feb 2014, 11:15:36

Carnegie Wave Energy

ASX.com.au

CWE

first commercial scale demosration plant now under construction
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Re: question(s) about water and desalination plants

Unread postby Ron Patterson » Sun 23 Feb 2014, 09:44:26

From Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desalination
Achievable costs in 2013 range from 0.5 to 1 US$/cubic metre (2 to 4 US$/kgal). (See below: "Economics"). The cost of untreated fresh water in the developing world can reach 5 US$/cubic metre.


So the average would be about three bucks per thousand gallons. Cheap enough for home use but way, way too high to consider it for irrigation.

Of course a small private reverse-osmosis unit powered by the grid would be many times more expensive.
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Re: question(s) about water and desalination plants

Unread postby Lore » Sun 23 Feb 2014, 15:23:40

Is that the cost delivered, or just at the source?
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Re: question(s) about water and desalination plants

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sun 23 Feb 2014, 16:30:51

Here are some specific thoughts about desalination from Texas. Notice desalination is being done with a lot of other sources then the sea. Notice part of the economics include selling existing fresh water rights to others. As I mentioned before about frac water: all water in Texas belongs to someone. If you want fresh water to frac, grow crops or whatever you'll have to buy it from the owner. Also notice the developing horse trading/disputes amongst the various actors. Entire article here: http://www.edwardsaquifer.net/desalination.html. BTW that horizontal well is just drilled was less than 100' from a 64" buried pipeline that hauls water 150 miles from a lake to Corpus Christi that bought half the acre-feet from that district and laid the line in 1998. They had a minor sh*t fit when they found out about my well. But oil/NG mineral owners in Texas have no less rights then water ones.


"In April 2000 the Texas Water Development Board approved a $59,000 grant to the Lavaca-Navadid River Authority to determine if building a $400 million plant on Matagorda Bay at Point Comfort would be economically and environmentally feasible. There is a power plant at this location that could supply the heated sea water for the membrane process. The study was released two months later and the cost rose to $755 million, but this included the cost of transmission facilities to San Antonio. The study estimated that a 50-50 mix of desalinated water and water treated by other conventional methods could be delivered to San Antonio users for about $2.80 per thousand gallons, compared to a current cost of $1.36 per thousand gallons. A similar plant being constructed in Tampa, Florida will raise customer’s water bills by about $7.50 a month (1), (2).

On April 29 2002 Texas Governor Rick Perry visited San Antonio and announced his intention to push for construction of a 25 mgd desalination plant on the Texas coast. He said "Though it may be many years, if not decades, before ocean water is a prime source of water for Texas to use, we must begin the groundwork today so that future Texans have an abundant, drought-proof supply of water." In November 2002 the South Central Texas Regional Water Planning Group endorsed a proposal by the San Antonio Water System, the San Antonio River Authority, and the San Patricio Municipal Water District to build and operate a desalination plant that could produce eight million gallons per day by 2006. The project would include a plant to purify brackish groundwater in San Patricio county and another plant to purify ocean water. Initially it would not deliver water to San Antonio but would free up surface water in the Nueces River Basin now used by the city of Corpus Christi, thereby reducing pressure on the Edwards to meet those needs. Corpus Christi has it's own competing proposal to build it's own desalination plant and then sell surface water rights to San Antonio. SAWS indicated it is not interested in a customer relationship with Corpus."

"In April of 2004, the city of Brownsville dedicated its new Southmost Regional desalination plant, which is designed to turn brackish groundwater from the Gulf Coast Aquifer into drinking water. The plant cost $21.1 million and has a capacity of 7.5 million gallons per day. It is the city's first drought-proof source of water. By 2004, there were more than 100 desalination plants in Texas, all of them treating either brackish groundwater or surface water. Some of the larger facilities are in Sherman (26.4 mgd), Lake Granbury (14.2 mgd), and Fort Stockton (12.7 mgd). El Paso Water Utilities is planning a 29 mgd facility, and the San Antonio Water System is also studying the feasibility of withdrawing and treating saline water from the Edwards Aquifer. In August of 2004, Governor Rick Perry gave the concept of desalination another shot in the arm by delivering a speech in which he claimed that membrane technologies "will change the world forever". He suggested that Texas should lead the nation by building the country's first large-scale desalination plant.

In April of 2006 the city of Brownsville began construction on a pilot-scale ocean water desalination plant that will produce about 100,000 gallons per day. The main purpose of the facility will be to determine how to develop a full-scale plant and what financial incentives will be needed. Also in 2006, the San Antonio Water System began tests at several sites to evaluate the feasibility of constructing a plant to desalinate brackish water from the Wilcox Aquifer. One site in Atascosa county seemed especially promising, and SAWS set a goal to have an operating facility by early 2011 that could produce up to 25 million gallons per day. In August of 2007, the city of El Paso opened the Kay Bailey Hutchison Desalination Plant, which will eventually supply 27.5 million gallons of drinking water daily. Officials said it is the largest desal plant outside of a coastal area. Constructed at a cost of $87 million, it draws brackish groundwater from underneath Fort Bliss. Costs were expected to be about $1.65 per thousand gallons.

In October of 2007, under intense local pressure from area residents, the board of the Evergreen Underground Water District voted to rescind an agreement it had made with SAWS to regulate and permit the production and export of brackish Wilcox water. Under the agreement, the district was to have issued permits to SAWS after the utility showed the water was available and production was not likely to effect freshwater supplies from the overlying Carrizo aquifer. If an impact occurred, SAWS would have to limit or stop production. In return, SAWS agreed to abandon plans to pump fresh water. In January of 2008, a citizens panel endorsed the San Antonio Water System plan for desalination, but it noted that local opposition may turn out to be a bigger obstacle than any technological challenges. SAWS Board Chairman Alex Briseno said SAWS had not been proactive in doing outreach to the communities involved, but "We don't intend to just go to a place and take its water. The goal is to have a win-win situation." Some of the benefits to the local community could include providing treated water or economic development funds. In July of 2008 Atascosa residents were upset by news that SAWS had donated $10,000 to help sponsor their annual Cowboy Homecoming festival. Many considered it a "bribe" to quell opposition. After much public outcry at a packed City Council meeting, officials said they would not accept the money. In response, SAWS interim CEO Robert Puente said the contribution was misconstrued and said "I give you my word as a fellow Texan that our gestures were made in good faith and reflect our sincere attempt to respect your natural resources and be a contributing member of your community."

In February of 2009 SAWS unveiled a revised 50-year water supply plan, and the desalination component was scaled back to 11,800 acre-feet per year, or about 10.5 million gallons per day. Originally the project was envisioned to produce up to 25,000 acre-feet per year. The SAWS desalination well field will now be entirely within Bexar county on the Twin Oaks ASR site; previously, it was a multi-county design. The current goal is to have the project online by 2016. SAWS began testing a pilot well on the Twin Oaks site to confirm the treatment requirements for the brackish water and to evaluate whether brackish water could be produced without affecting the stored Edwards water in the Carrizo sands. Brackish water will be produced from the Wilcox Group, which is deeper than the Carrizo sands and separated by the Calvert Bluff formation, which has very low vertical permeability, so waters in the formations above and below do not mix. All the tests produced excellent results and SAWS went ahead with design of a full-scale project at Twin Oaks. By mid-2012, drilling had begun and SAWS indicated it was on track for a 2016 startup."
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Re: question(s) about water and desalination plants

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 23 Feb 2014, 18:46:35

California is well positioned to become the world leader in SOLAR desalinisation.

solar desalinsation---the answer to California's drought problems

The drought is a crisis for Californians (except for posh golf courses, which seem to get all the water they need). Never let a crisis go to waste----use this opportunity to build solar desalinisation plants. :idea:
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