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The death of suburbia

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: The death of suburbia

Unread postby asg70 » Thu 15 Jun 2017, 12:26:16

Newfie wrote:
So I don't think razing the suburbs and packing people into the city like sardines would in any way solve the spiritual vacuum of modernity.

Who said it would?


Ask Ibon.
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Re: The death of suburbia

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 15 Jun 2017, 12:39:25

asg70 wrote:
Newfie wrote:
So I don't think razing the suburbs and packing people into the city like sardines would in any way solve the spiritual vacuum of modernity.

Who said it would?


Ask Ibon.


Who said anything about razing the suburbs? My whole post was supporting their existence! Also no mention in my post about packing folks into the city either. Did you mean someone else?
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Re: The death of suburbia

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 15 Jun 2017, 12:49:25

shortonoil wrote:
Well, that's a serious warning. I wonder if all these predictions about an incoming recession in USA will finally come about.


Probably the best data that we have for assessing that is local, state and federal tax receipts.

But you can't assume short term trends in federal tax receipts is an indication of a weak economy. I've seen multiple articles discussing how businesses and "the rich" are assuming that one Trump agenda that will come to pass is lower tax rates, for both businesses and high income individuals.

Thus, many such individuals are paying less 2017 estimated taxes, and wala -- lower federal tax receipts.

Now of course these people could be wrong about whether Trump is successful in much of anything, but saying short term federal tax receipt trends is a "reliable" indicator of an incoming recession is at best -- unreliable.
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Re: The death of suburbia

Unread postby shortonoil » Thu 15 Jun 2017, 14:38:20

but saying short term federal tax receipt trends is a "reliable" indicator of an incoming recession is at best -- unreliable.


You are defining yearly tax receipts as "short term"?

For 2016 federal hit a record of $2.909 trillion, but only grew at a 1.2% rate for the year; as compared to 13.4% in 2013.


Is that like defining a 4 year bust in oil prices as short term? Let's wait until the end of the next ice age to make sure we get it right?
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Re: The death of suburbia

Unread postby pstarr » Thu 15 Jun 2017, 15:02:48

Ibon wrote:
asg70 wrote:
Newfie wrote:
So I don't think razing the suburbs and packing people into the city like sardines would in any way solve the spiritual vacuum of modernity.

Who said it would?


Ask Ibon.


Who said anything about razing the suburbs? My whole post was supporting their existence! Also no mention in my post about packing folks into the city either. Did you mean someone else?

Asgy doesn't distinguish between different people and their individual arguments. Anyone who disagrees with him . . . regarding anything at all . . . is either a Doomer or a Trumper. Little or no nuance to argument.

I love cities. I love country. I can't stand suburbs. However, the reality is that the suburbs is where most people will reside post-peak. But not in the comfort they have become accustomed to. I see the them giving up their homes. Bankruptcy, foreclosure, and finally an inability to even acquire enough power to run the suburban energy hogs.

The giant empty box stores commandeered by the government, converted into truly voluntary refugee camps. No coercion necessary. A warm bunk bed and three-squares preferable to freezing in a dead-brick ranch house. Or cooking in the split level when the AC goes off.
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Re: The death of suburbia

Unread postby marmico » Thu 15 Jun 2017, 15:04:54

CBO Monthly Budget Review for May 2017

https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/115th- ... 91-mbr.pdf

Payments for 2016 activity may have been smaller than anticipated because income growth was weaker than expected in calendar year 2016 or because taxpayers may have shifted more income than projected from 2016 to later years, expecting legislation to reduce tax rates to be enacted this year.
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Re: The death of suburbia

Unread postby onlooker » Thu 15 Jun 2017, 15:16:29

But Pstarr everything is great in the suburbs NOW :lol: :lol:
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Re: The death of suburbia

Unread postby Cog » Thu 15 Jun 2017, 15:47:25

Living in community dorms ran by the government. The wet dream of every leftist doomer I have ever met. Et Tu comrade?
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Re: The death of suburbia

Unread postby pstarr » Thu 15 Jun 2017, 18:32:44

onlooker wrote:But Pstarr everything is great in the suburbs NOW :lol: :lol:

Appeal to Tradition (Argumentum Ad Traditionem; aka Argumentum Ad Antiquitatem) with a touch of Appeal to Authority (argumentum ad verecundiam), because they read that autonomous solar-powered tesla uber EV's don't need oil lol
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Re: The death of suburbia

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 15 Jun 2017, 20:34:12

pstarr wrote:
onlooker wrote:But Pstarr everything is great in the suburbs NOW :lol: :lol:

Appeal to Tradition (Argumentum Ad Traditionem; aka Argumentum Ad Antiquitatem) with a touch of Appeal to Authority (argumentum ad verecundiam), because they read that autonomous solar-powered tesla uber EV's don't need oil lol

Can't say as I'm impressed with all the Latin quotes. The language of the form is English. Save your Latin for reunions with the pedophile priest from your childhood.
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Re: The death of suburbia

Unread postby aldente » Thu 15 Jun 2017, 22:12:12

VTSOWEDIN,
Pstarr is not presenting the beginners course of the Trivium for hyperventilating (meaning highcare) 8 year old children to trample on. Grow up - and come back- YES -you are invited back, the day you grow mentaly - 12 is ok - meaning, you are now officially banned for the next 4years by me in person !
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Re: The death of suburbia

Unread postby pstarr » Thu 15 Jun 2017, 23:06:54

aldente wrote:VTSOWEDIN,
Pstarr is not presenting the beginners course of the Trivium for hyperventilating (meaning highcare) 8 year old children to trample on. Grow up - and come back- YES -you are invited back, the day you grow mentaly - 12 is ok - meaning, you are now officially banned for the next 4years by me in person !
"Instead of getting depressed, you should be getting angry. At least if you’d get angry, you’d fight.”

Best advice I ever had! Tnx al dente
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Re: The death of suburbia

Unread postby jedrider » Fri 16 Jun 2017, 12:10:11

ibon wrote:There are so many wide open spaces both physically and creatively. That so many are satisfied with so little and choose the deadening existence of mediocre suburban reality only really means that that there is more room for the rest of us who have rejected this choice. When you truly understand this then you become grateful that there is this huge percentage of the population living these orderly lives in suburbia demanding so little.


Thank you for summarizing my life choices so well! I prefer to live dangerously only in my mind.

You really ought to write a book of your observations and analyses: You could call it "The Sociology of the [Fossil Fuel] Plateau".
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Re: The death of suburbia

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 16 Jun 2017, 12:36:27

shortonoil wrote:
but saying short term federal tax receipt trends is a "reliable" indicator of an incoming recession is at best -- unreliable.


You are defining yearly tax receipts as "short term"?

In terms of the ebb and flow of major economies, I am calling one year (you spoke of tax receipts for one year, 2016) as short term, yes.

Do you define one year in economic terms long term?

If so, that means you doomers are getting a LOT of long term forecasts (of doom) wrong, i.e. one a year aside from the 2008-2009 mess.
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Re: The death of suburbia

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 16 Jun 2017, 13:41:45

The different perspective is this. Ape tribes live in close proximity, for mutual protection. Individual apes that disturb the tranquility of food gathering, mutual grooming, and child rearing are driven off and must either find another tribe or be a rogue loaner ape in the jungle.

I believe I mentioned once before that I went to a high school reunion years ago. I came to realize that over three quarters of my classmates had never left that small town in Southern Illinois. By which I mean that they had never been more than 50 miles from the place, and were smugly content and considered themselves fortunate because the employment situation had allowed this.

My Father's second wife was such a person. When I went to her funeral last year, four generations and over 100 people attended. We were the outliers, coming all the way from California. Perhaps a quarter of those there had travelled to other countries or other states, but most would never dream of doing so. All they want is to be in their territory, surrounded by the comforting presence of extended family.

Note that there are many more of them than there are the rest of us. We who exist and roam through foriegn territories are rogue apes. The suburbs satisfy the ape instincts in all of us. As for those people who willingly choose to live in massive urban centers, I just don't know what to think of them - I do FEEL that they are damaged or deranged somehow, but I find it hard to express this in words.
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Re: The death of suburbia

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 16 Jun 2017, 13:57:26

jedrider wrote:You really ought to write a book of your observations and analyses: You could call it "The Sociology of the [Fossil Fuel] Plateau".


There are already plenty of books about how it's best to go back to the land to nurture the soul. I have no problem with that kind of evangelism--up to a point. Most conflict in life originates from people trying to impose a one-size-fits-all way of life on others. People generally do not like strangers coming up to them and telling them they're doing life "wrong" and that even though they think they're happy they really aren't. People tend to want to project their values on others. "Hey, I was an office drone and I disappeared into the Amazon, so everyone else should do the same!" Doesn't work that way. People are more diverse than you think. The moment you go from "hey, come on in, the water's fine" over to looking DOWN on them, PITYING them and suggesting they are sick and miserable and misguided, then you're basically just being a snobbish dick. Pursuit of happiness is in the constitution for a reason. I happen to hate tattoos and piercings but I know it won't do me any good to walk up to someone with tats and piercing and try to convince them of the error of their ways. Live and let live.
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Re: The death of suburbia

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 16 Jun 2017, 14:08:24

asg70 wrote: Most conflict in life originates from people trying to impose a one-size-fits-all way of life on others. People generally do not like strangers coming up to them and telling them they're doing life "wrong" and that even though they think they're happy they really aren't.

Absolutely right.

And it seems to be a really, really strong tendency in a lot of people.

There's a big difference between someone pointing out "I like X, because [reason(s)]...", and "I like X and you should (or even must or I'll try to force you to) as well".

With things like religion, politics, and economic interests (among MANY others) as conflict fault lines -- one has to wonder whether humanity can ever have tolerance as the default, or even most prevalent mode.
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Re: The death of suburbia

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 16 Jun 2017, 15:14:17

Frankly, this is a question Outcast that has gnawed at my conscious for many years. I sometimes wake up and wonder why people cannot and do not get along better. The future that looms potentially can provide the correct context to profoundly change us collectively. With the magnitude of the Trauma and Ordeals we will face and the long duration of this state, it can be the catalyst for a change of consciousness to one of much more harmony with each other and coincidentally Nature. One sees solidarity among people when facing challenging situations such as War, or a particular emergency.
So, the backdrop of going through the bottleneck of severe forced changes because of our extreme status of overshoot, will either end in total disaster for the human race or we can marshal a code of ethics based on deep caring for each other and Nature, and thus the future may usher in a second chance for the human race that we may be better equipped to take advantage of than if we were devoid of this supreme test.
Last edited by onlooker on Fri 16 Jun 2017, 15:45:04, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The death of suburbia

Unread postby Cog » Fri 16 Jun 2017, 15:36:32

Don't impose or try to impose your socialist solution on me, to whatever particular problem you seem to have, and we will get along famously.
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Re: The death of suburbia

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 16 Jun 2017, 16:03:37

Cog wrote:Don't impose or try to impose your socialist solution on me, to whatever particular problem you seem to have, and we will get along famously.

Not Socialism, just treating each other in a kinder and gentler fashion Cog :)
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