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THE Country of Turkey Thread (merged)

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Re: Turkey and the EU.

Unread postby MrBean » Wed 12 Oct 2005, 19:54:34

elroy wrote:Capitalist ? I think you mean secular. I believe muslims in Turkey are more secular than muslims in the Netherlands, for what it's worth. An amusing anekdote: some colleague of my mother married a muslim man and she became a muslim as well, she started wearing the hijab n stuff like that. They went to Turkey to visit family and the female relatives pleaded with her just take off that thing, everybody's watching!
Also, in Turkey the hijab is forbidden in government and schools n places like that, in the Netherlands it isn't. We could learn a thing or two from them.


Yes, Kemalism is strictly secular ideology to the degree of religious oppression, and Kemalist Turkey is ideologically much more secular than e.g France. Current ruling party is Islamic-Democratic (cf. Christian-Democratic conservative parties in West), and opposes some of the worst aspects of Kemalism (militarism, chauvinist nationalism, oppressive secularism).
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Re: Turkey and the EU.

Unread postby Ercole » Mon 17 Oct 2005, 13:05:11

French will stop this nonsense as fast as possible, thru Sarkozy's election or thru a referendum... Nonsense, because Turkey still occupy a part of Kurdistan and a part of Cyprus - I don't think France would have made friends with Germany if germans were still in Alsace-Lorraine, so why would we this time ? And if germans had said that killing jews was not a genocide, jews provoked them and finally it was a war, an honest war as usual, huh ?! What an terrifying country, last summer mein kampf was a big hit in turkish bookshop - next may come the true story of Armenians eating the poor little turks...

Mein Kampf ! Whaou ! They really have to change BIG ! Til that great time to come, no thank you, at all !

About muslims, we have enough of them right now - 80 millions more !!! In 10 years ?!!! When PO is at the door, with crumbling economies in a crumbling planet ?!!! I think you're all crazy... For the purpose of big ideas, you're blind of what people want or doesn't want... And might do...

"Big Ideas" like "United Nations" did nothing to prevent a few more killings since 1945, except protecting the all-over-the-world politicians who worked there with "big ideas"...

Watch some of "a fistful of dynamite" by leone, when "Juan" tell the irish bomber what he thinks of revolution - rich discussed it and sent the poor to execute it, and then "the poor are dead !" he concluded. What's more a big idea than a revolution, freeing a country from a king, a tyran or a theocratic asshole - count how many did succeed in establishing freedom and how many did lead to another tyranny...

Fuck big ideas !

Count me out greeting this Turkey...

PS : no politics from Christian-Democratic conservative parties in West has ever compared our church bells to weapons like your erdogan currently ruling the Islamic-Democratic party did with minarets, "The "minarets are our missiles" , ""The mosques are our barracks, the minarets are our bayonets." quoted from 1997 erdogan's poetry...
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Re: Turkey and the EU.

Unread postby stu » Mon 17 Oct 2005, 18:38:50

Ercole wrote:French will stop this nonsense as fast as possible, thru Sarkozy's election or thru a referendum... Nonsense, because Turkey still occupy a part of Kurdistan and a part of Cyprus - I don't think France would have made friends with Germany if germans were still in Alsace-Lorraine, so why would we this time ? And if germans had said that killing jews was not a genocide, jews provoked them and finally it was a war, an honest war as usual, huh ?! What an terrifying country, last summer mein kampf was a big hit in turkish bookshop - next may come the true story of Armenians eating the poor little turks...

Mein Kampf ! Whaou ! They really have to change BIG ! Til that great time to come, no thank you, at all !

About muslims, we have enough of them right now - 80 millions more !!! In 10 years ?!!! When PO is at the door, with crumbling economies in a crumbling planet ?!!! I think you're all crazy... For the purpose of big ideas, you're blind of what people want or doesn't want... And might do...

"Big Ideas" like "United Nations" did nothing to prevent a few more killings since 1945, except protecting the all-over-the-world politicians who worked there with "big ideas"...

Watch some of "a fistful of dynamite" by leone, when "Juan" tell the irish bomber what he thinks of revolution - rich discussed it and sent the poor to execute it, and then "the poor are dead !" he concluded. What's more a big idea than a revolution, freeing a country from a king, a tyran or a theocratic asshole - count how many did succeed in establishing freedom and how many did lead to another tyranny...

Fuck big ideas !

Count me out greeting this Turkey...

PS : no politics from Christian-Democratic conservative parties in West has ever compared our church bells to weapons like your erdogan currently ruling the Islamic-Democratic party did with minarets, "The "minarets are our missiles" , ""The mosques are our barracks, the minarets are our bayonets." quoted from 1997 erdogan's poetry...


They still have a decade to resolve the Cyprus and Kurdish issues. If the Turks really want a piece of the European pie then I'm sure that they'll reform.

Maybe PO will be crumbling economies in 10 years and maybe not. If it is then trying to bring Turkey in reduces hostility towards Europeans. Also current trends point to a decline in European populations so we are going to need immigration in order for people to carry on doing out crappy jobs and helping people get a state pension (or whatevers left of the pension system in 10 years).
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Re: Turkey and the EU.

Unread postby turkishguy » Wed 16 Nov 2005, 14:51:51

Well, you should hear something from someone living in the heart of turkey I guess.

I'm turkish, i have lived here most of my life (90%.) Now I have move to a very old and typical town that even the turkish people living in the west don't think about.

Let me tell you, they hate americans, they hate christianity. They hate europe. only 10 million educated people in turkey actually want to join EU, the rest (60 million of them) are ready to kill each and every christian in the Europian continent.

The rest of the population are uneducated religious ready-to-lose-their-life-for-islam type of people. I don't believe in religion, god, allah or whatever and have found myself in the middle of this 5th grade school graduates that represents most of turkey because of a job opportunity.

Yes Turkish people are not fundementalists or they are not as stupid and uneducated as those that live in iran and iraq... But they know more about the world (5 years of formal secular education compared to 0 in islamic countries) and can cause more damage (physical and intellectual) to the world than any Islamic country.

I am sorry to say this. I have been grown up by my family to be a nationalist. But I don't believe in allah, I I don't believe in muhammed and whatever sills ass story he has.

I can be put to trial on these words. I hope noone notices in turkey.

They wont, since they don't know about peak-oil. or any other worldly matters.

Thanks.
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Re: Turkey and the EU.

Unread postby elroy » Wed 16 Nov 2005, 18:35:14

Gotta admit, this erdogan with his minaret missiles does cause some worry. But maybe by the time they're allowed to enter peak oil has hit already. Who knows what the future brings. Que sera.
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Re: Turkey and the EU.

Unread postby stu » Wed 16 Nov 2005, 18:41:18

Most Turks may hate Christians and westerners but how many would really back up their beliefs and oppose entry to one of the largest trading blocs in the world and thus deny themselves the chance of increased wealth.
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Re: Turkey and the EU.

Unread postby Mesuge » Thu 17 Nov 2005, 07:07:33

Turkey in the EU? No way in post PO world..
That's just another trojan horse by the Brits and US to stall any further political integration for federal Europe, call it backdoor Euroland desintegration. To have a secure access to oil is Turkish membership in NATO enough.

Most people here still don't get it, EU is already a semi federal state not a pure economic zone as NAFTA in western hemispehere. The problem is that this has been psuhed by the elites on people without proper explanation so many Europeans feel kind of puzzled by the fact they are already living in legal, political and economic super state..

In addition couple of countries will reject it in referendums. You can't change mindset in just 15-20 years - there is already 60-90% popular opposition in countries like Austria, France and others.. Lets have a supereb political, economic and cultural cooperation with Turkey but that's it..
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Re: Turkey and the EU.

Unread postby Quicksilver » Fri 18 Nov 2005, 10:01:26

Some people here really don't fully grasp peak oil. Mass migration will be the first thing to go as economies start crumbling and unemployment skyrockets.
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Re: Turkey and the EU.

Unread postby Mesuge » Fri 18 Nov 2005, 11:35:13

Well, how can you mass migrate into the EU then?
The Soviet economic collapse in 1990 demonstrated that Russians and Ukranians etc. can move back to more rural life and survive - no mass exodus occured. Yes a few millions went to Izrael and US but in the PO world you just don't get visa nor money for the expensive plane ticket.

So the other traditional route to Europe is via sea which is already guarded by Spanish and Italian warships and immigration detention centers - making any mass movement a moot case.. There is already stop sign on any massive immigration in UK, France, Germany this will only get harsher as the unrest rises and sources become more scare..

I'm afraid people will only move half way and making unrest in the transitional areas like Northern Africa, Middle East etc.. rendering thus post PO world into more violent scenario..

I don't have that much info on Asia but Chinese have growing community on the Russian part of the border so clashes for lebensraum might occure there as well..
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THE Country of Turkey Thread (merged)

Unread postby zoidberg » Thu 26 Jan 2006, 00:56:47

Are there any grand strategists in the Audience? The EU is trying to recreate the Ottoman Empire and integrate it into Europe, kind like a superset of the Central powers from World War I. (I'd include the allies in there as well but theres no sign Russia is going to enter the EU any time soon) Hence the EU's support of the Kosovo war.

Theres a strong push the EU leadership to get Turkey in the mix as well. Despite clear public opposition to it(Democracy can be so inconvenient). Why? It made no sense to me, unless the EU bureaucrats have become so power crazed that they must assimilate all that they see, which seems overly simplistic and unsustainable. But watching Iraq disintegrate and how a Norwegian firm is trying to get oil out of Kurdistan, it occured to me that the EU wants Turkey so it can scoop Kurdistan as well. (And open up more direct access to the rest of the middle east)

Does this seem feasible? The kosovo war never made much sense to me either. Not as a ploy to keep NATO relevant or as a relief operation for Albanians either(and given the subsequent debunking of the supposed massacres, that has even less credence)

But as a way to expand direct EU control over all parts of Europe and bring its border to crucial chokepoints and pave the way for expansion to the middle east it seems sensible, sort of.
Last edited by Ferretlover on Sat 21 Mar 2009, 09:02:00, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Merge thread.
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Re: The EU, Turkey, Kurdistan and Kosovo and Oil

Unread postby If_oil_grew_like_bamboo » Wed 01 Feb 2006, 11:40:02

The pros and cons to Turkish entry into the European Union that do not relate to oil carry more weight in European Parliaments than the issue of Kurdish oil. Most Europeans are not satisfied with how the Turkish government handles the issue of Kurdish identity and the methods of retention of political control over the region. They do not perpetuate the present policies of Turkey with regard to Kurdish territory.

The European Union probably views the entry of Kurdish territory (which directly meets the borders of Iraq, Iran, and Syria) into itself as causing at issues that hold at least as much weight as the access to oil.

The issue is also interwoven with the support of "broadening" or "deepening" the European Union. The U.K. (which contains less support for deepening the most other European countries) has fewer qualms about expanding the EU rapidly so as to expand trade ties whereas the countries that seeking deepening want more politican unification and fear that adding countries with very different cultures, non-democratic tendencies, and popuations less supportive of European unification will thwart the emergence of more power being granted to a super-state entity. The addition of more countries also complicates unification issues. Some hope unification is slowed or stopped whereas others want it to speed up or continue at the present rate.

Immigration is also a huge issue with regards to Turkish entry.

There are a substantial amount of opponents to Turkish entry into the European Union in European governments. Merkel, the Chancellor of Germany, for instance is opposed to Turkish entry into the EU. The EU politicians themselves might be more support of Turkish entry as you say though.
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Re: Turkey and the EU.

Unread postby warnio » Mon 13 Mar 2006, 16:30:39

The fear for a mass immigration of Turks into Europe is blown out of proportion.

First of all, look at Brussels, look at Berlin and other big european cities. Fact is there already are an enormous amount of Turks living and working in the EU. They're working hard and paying their taxes just like the rest of us.

And my second point, they say this "mass exodus" thingy everytime. They said it when Spain/Protugal joined, they said it about Poland. Yes some people came but they come here to work and therefore to pay taxes. They help our economies.

About the other point like Cyprus and human rights, yes they have to improve upon those...

And the replies about peak oil, does this have to enter EVERY discussion? ;)
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Turkey and Iran/Iraq

Unread postby Bleep » Thu 27 Apr 2006, 09:57:04

South-east Turkey is an Iran and Iraq border.
Massive Military Buildup in Southeast (link)
Trenches on borders, entries and exits with Iran-Iraq under control, new troops and armoured vehicles deployed.. BIA News Center 25/04/2006:
BİA (Istanbul) - In the midst of what appears to be one of Turkey's largest military build-ups in the Southeast region since 1999, Turkey on Monday closed down all entries and exists on its southeast border region where trenches, defended by land and armoured units, now defend the border. The Turkish media, widely covering the so-called "border closure" has reported that the massive build-up aims to prevent new infiltration of Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) militants into the country while preventing those already in Turkish territory from escaping.

New troops were being deployed to the region from central and western parts of the country over the past weeks including reinforcements from as far west as Turkey's Thrace region in the wake of a new and controversial Anti-Terror Bill that is to be debated soon at the Turkish Parliament. The PKK, issuing a statement on the developments, has claimed it is prepared for an operation against its ranks but has accused Iranian authorities of cooperating with Turkey too. Independent reports from the region have it that the organisation has divided its forces into smaller groups of approximately 20 armed men in order to survive the ongoing operations.

Chief of Staff Ozkok: No cross-border operation: Turkey's Chief of General Staff General Hilmi Ozkok appeared before journalists during an April 23 reception in Ankara marking the Independence and Childrens' day and denied rumours that the country was gearing up to stage a cross-border operatio. Ozkok, answering journalist questions, argued that the troop movement in the region was not of extraordinary nature and said that it was part of preparations that took place every Spring. He also criticised the national press for disclosing information on troop movements and numbers in relation to developments there.

Asked whether US Secretary of State Rice's scheduled visit to Turkey this week would see a discussion on a Turkish cross-border incursion Ozkok was quoted as saying, "we cannot make a decision of that kind based on the USA. Every country is sovereign. Every country makes its own decisions. If the conditions change, you act by the changing conditions."

Army cancels leaves: In a separate report on developments in Southeast Turkey, the pro-Kurdish Firat News Agency (ANF) claimed that all leaves had been cancelled for a period of six months for troops in Southeast Turkey involved in the current operations. ANF claimed over 200 thousands soldiers had been deployed to the border regions where, it said, the operation against the PKK is expected to take 16 months. It said soldiers already on leave had been called back to service. (II/YE)
Last edited by Ferretlover on Sat 21 Mar 2009, 09:03:54, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Merged with THE Country of Turkey Thread.
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Re: Turkey and Iran/Iraq

Unread postby Bleep » Thu 27 Apr 2006, 10:02:45

Turkey denies troops entered Iraq but tough on Kurds (link)
26 Apr 2006 14:54:33 GMT
Source: Reuters
ANKARA, April 26 (Reuters) - Turkey denied on Wednesday a news report that its troops had crossed into northern Iraq in pursuit of Kurdish militants, but it also said the new government in Baghdad must help crack down on the rebels. ...
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Re: Turkey and the EU.

Unread postby turkishguy » Mon 10 Jul 2006, 00:14:35

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/arti ... wsid=48053
An extensive inquiry is being conducted into a widespread power cut that affected 13 provinces throughout Turkey on Saturday


Rising gas prices cause blackouts. I wonder when the EU will start experiencing same problems.
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Turkey-Iraq border tension grows

Unread postby KevO » Wed 30 May 2007, 10:40:17

Lebanon, Palestine, Israel, Iraq, Iran and now Turkey? what is plan A I wonder?
Tension is rising on Turkey's border with Iraq amid speculation Ankara may be about to launch an incursion to tackle Kurdish rebels. Turkey is continuing a military build up and Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has refused to rule out action.

Turkey blames rebels of the PKK group for a recent suicide bombing in Ankara and a landmine attack on troops. The PKK has been fighting for an ethnic homeland since 1984. Turkey blames the group for 30,000 deaths since then.

Airspace breached: Reports from south-east Turkey say the military build-up includes about 20 tanks being sent to the Iraq border.

article in full
Last edited by Ferretlover on Sat 21 Mar 2009, 09:12:09, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Merged with THE Country of Turkey Thread.
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Re: Turkey-Iraq border tension grows

Unread postby strider3700 » Wed 30 May 2007, 19:04:32

so does turkey have an agreement with the US or do they just think the US won't say anything when thier only ally in the country gets attacked by a foreign power?

I guess the other option is the nukes are all fueled up and someone is just waiting for the excuse to push the button.
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BREAKING NEWS: TURKEY INVADES IRAQ

Unread postby Madpaddy » Wed 06 Jun 2007, 09:38:05

Another Middle East war erupts Wednesday as 50,000 Turkish troops invade N. Iraq to strike rebel Kurdish PKK bases link
Last edited by Ferretlover on Sat 21 Mar 2009, 09:20:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BREAKING NEWS: TURKEY INVADES IRAQ

Unread postby roccman » Wed 06 Jun 2007, 09:42:24

Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet!!!!
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Re: BREAKING NEWS: TURKEY INVADES IRAQ

Unread postby Aaron » Wed 06 Jun 2007, 09:44:55

This should end well.
The problem is, of course, that not only is economics bankrupt, but it has always been nothing more than politics in disguise... economics is a form of brain damage.

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