THE Country of Turkey Thread (merged)

[Keith_McClary]

I think the oil in Iran & Saudi & Nigeria and other countries is located in ethnic minority regions. So the US just needs to set up pro-American dictatorships with "laws" that give EXXON all the oil.

[Denny]

From what I saw on the news this morning, it seems that things are in good hands with Turkey. What it boils down is that Kurdish terrorists (the KTT, I think they are called) have been attacking Turkish tropps and then moving over the Iraq boundary to escape reprisal. Turkey has complained numerous times to Iraq that they want these terrorists prevented from entering Iraq, or at least returned to Turkey to face justice, but Iraq has not responded properly, so Turkey is now taking care of the situation themselves, by going into Iraq after them. Just like if the police were chasing a suspect, they would keep going over a state or province line.

Seems if the Turkish army can get access to Iraq that easily, it doesn't say good gthings about Iraq's state of affairs. Nor does Turkey seem afraid of any pushback from Iraq. But, as for Turkey itself, it has no itent of expanding borders or the like.

Apparently Turkey has lost 13 soldiers due to terrorist attacks in the past few months.

[Carlhole]

What it boils down is that Kurdish terrorists (the KTT, I think they are called) have been attacking Turkish tropps and then moving over the Iraq boundary to escape reprisal.

That's all true.

The US invasion of Iraq has "upset all the [ethnic] applecarts" in the neighborhood over there, as phrased by Spengler in the Asia Times the other day.

We can only wish that there were better on-the-spot journalistic coverage of these current events. It would have to accomplished by a journalist who could articulate the long, deep and simmering politics between the Turks and the Kurds. I think it's pretty interesting history myself.

Spengler, who writes for the Asia Times, surprisingly came out the other day for a Kurdish state which would include territory taken from both Turkey, Iran and Northern Iraq. Wow! That would seem like a recipe for war to me. But he insists that his views are well-considered over a period of many years of studying the situation.

It seemed to me from looking at it, that the US could USE the Kurds!
If the US were to strike a deal with the Kurds where the US gets a large military base in a new, Democratic, independent, Islamic Kurdistan, then the US would muscle Turkey and Iran to go along with it.

This would require some extensive deal-making that would probably include oil-flows and whatnot. But the military strength of the US to enforce such a long-shot deal would be greatly increased because America could train, equip and arm the Kurds who have quested for their own country for hundreds of years. It wouldn't be like our attempts to train the half-hearted Iraqi Army (whose allegiances also are ethnic-religious based).

It might be even be possible to include the Iraqi Sunnis in a new Kurdistan since the Kurds are Sunni also. I don't know.

America would sit there on it's big base, policing the whole situation, controlling the local economics (and the oil as well).

Why not?!!

The Shia get the south and its oil and their ties to Iran. They would have to deal with the behemoth to their north.

[Ferretlover]

Turkish lawmakers approve incursion into Iraq
Parliament approves possible cross-border move to chase Kurdish rebels
ANKARA, Turkey - Parliament on Wednesday overwhelmingly approved a possible cross-border offensive against Kurdish rebels in northern Iraq, although the government appears willing to give diplomatic pressure on the U.S.-backed Iraqi administration more time to work.
Lawmakers voted 507-19 in favor of empowering the government to order the military to cross into Iraq during a one-year period, Parliament Speaker Koksal Toptan said. They then burst into applause.
In Washington, President Bush said the United States was making clear to Turkey it should not send a massive number of troops into Iraq.
“We don’t think (that’s a fact!) it’s in their interest to send more troops in.” ...
And, they're off....

[eXpat]

Green light from the Turkish parliament to military accion link.

Turkey's parliament has approved by a large majority a government request to allow troops to cross into northern Iraq to crush Kurdish fighters based there.

Wednesday's parliamentary approval provides the legal basis for Nato's second biggest army to cross the mountainous border as and when it sees fit.

[Troyboy1208]

Oh boy...

[zoidberg]

Well, there you go... someone else thinks an American-backed Kurdistan is a good idea.

Do the Kurds? Do you think they rate American security guarantees worth a bottle of warm piss or spit? Would America fight for them against Turkey? How does America treat its allies in general? How much longer is America going to have a substantial presence in Iraq?

More to the point do you think the leaders in Kurdistan would risk their positions of leaders of the autonomous regions for the sake of Kurds in Turkey? They will and have fought amongst themselves before, and I'd bet money they'd let the Turks shoot the PKK fighters in return for leaving them their little fiefdoms.

Talabani
Barzani

These guys arent going to relinquish anything. They've agreed in the interim that Talabani can play president in Baghdad while Barzani tends the garden in Kurdistan, but Talabani is still the head of the PUK, and if Iraq continues to disintegrate I'm sure he'll go back to his old stomping grounds.

Bottom line is America can no more utilize a Kurdish state any more than it can keep Iraq together, or stop Iran from getting the bomb. 10 years from now when the world is wallowing in a peak oil induced depression they're simply not going to have the wherewithal to exert enough force in the region. Its barely sufficient as is. Turkey's increasing bold moves are a symptom of this weakness and this the primary signal to draw from their incursions into Iraq.

[Armageddon]

Green light from the Turkish parliament to military accion link.

Turkey's parliament has approved by a large majority a government request to allow troops to cross into northern Iraq to crush Kurdish fighters based there.

Wednesday's parliamentary approval provides the legal basis for Nato's second biggest army to cross the mountainous border as and when it sees fit.

For some reason when I think of the Turkish army, I visualize one tank, and thousands of hooded rebels holding shields in their arms and carrying swords running behind this tank. Not sure why.

[Denny]

[quote="Armageddon]
For some reason when I think of the Turkish army, I visualize one tank, and thousands of hooded rebels holding shields in their arms and carrying swords running behind this tank. Not sure why.[/quote]

Well, think again. According to Wikipedia:

" The Turkish Armed Forces is the second largest standing armed force in NATO, after the U.S. Armed Forces, with a combined strength of 1,043,550 uniformed personnel serving in its five branches.
...
In 1998, Turkey announced a program of modernization worth some US$31 billion over a ten year period in various projects including tanks, fighter jets, helicopters, submarines, warships and assault rifles. Turkey is also a Level 3 contributor to the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) program, gaining an opportunity to develop and influence the creation of the next generation fighter spearheaded by the United States"

[Twilight]

Turkey's increasing bold moves are a symptom of this weakness and this the primary signal to draw from their incursions into Iraq.

This is what makes the biggest impression on me.

Come on, a second-rate NATO power is going it alone in the ME Gulf region, making its own policy on the hoof, and the US has no leverage. No leverage, guys. None. No reward to offer, no threat it could make. Days and days on CNN, saying "No, please don't do that! We'll make Congress stop it! Congress, cut it out now! You're pissing them off!"

That's what I'm seeing. Think back five years ago, how unthinkable this was in the popular imagination. And yet here we are. Not only is the whole 'loss of imperial influence' thesis right again, it got confirmed over breakfast last week. It shouldn't be surprising, but somehow it is surreal. Wow.

As an aside, Turkish gas prices have to be seen to be believed (they would make any European's eyes water), so don't assume happy motoring will figure heavily in their calculations.

[MacG]

The entire thing is a royal mess right now. And there are no indications that it will suddenly become LESS messy in the immediate future. What comes after "royal mess"? Imperial mess?

[eXpat]

And the kitchen is getting hotter link

Kurds vow to fight if attacked

Threats of military action by Turkey have led to protests by Iraqi Kurds [AFP]

Iraqi Kurds will fight any "aggression" by Turkish or other forces, the region's president said on Friday.

Massoud Barzani, president of the autonomous Kurdish region in northern Iraq, said Kurds would be "completely ready to defend our democratic experiment and ... the sanctity of our homeland".

[MD]

Turkey needs to back off before the Kurds blow up their pipeline.

[eXpat]

There you have it folks, this is not posturing anymore. they (Turkish army) are entering in Iraq, getting some killed, which in turn will increase the number, etc, link

[mattduke]

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan warned Turkey may order a military incursion into Iraq ``at any time'' and halt exports to the country, as tens of thousands of Turks joined funerals for soldiers killed near the border.

Bloomberg

[DantesPeak]

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan warned Turkey may order a military incursion into Iraq ``at any time'' and halt exports to the country, as tens of thousands of Turks joined funerals for soldiers killed near the border.

Bloomberg

Halting exports to Iraq? That would be bad for Iraq, since a considerable amount of gasoline comes in thorugh Turkey - being it doesn't produce much petrol for itself.

As far as I know, oil exports have been halted out of northern Iraq since Friday.

[MrBean]

Turkey's increasing bold
Come on, a second-rate NATO power is going it alone in the ME Gulf region, making its own policy on the hoof, and the US has no leverage. No leverage, guys. None. No reward to offer, no threat it could make. Days and days on CNN, saying "No, please don't do that! We'll make Congress stop it! Congress, cut it out now! You're pissing them off!"

Well I wouldn't call Turkey second-rate NATO power but the second, after USA. Or at least fouth, if it is nukes and and carriers and other phallic extensions that makes a Big Boy.

[zoidberg]

Why Iraqi Kurds could oppose Turkish kin
Odds are the Iraqi Kurds are going to turn on the PKK, for a price. Its not unthinkable. (They did in the early 90's).

Oh, but before that can come off maybe Bush can upset the applecart and start bombing things.
Bush offers to bomb Kurds
No point in taking the easier, cheaper road out.

[idomar]

Just seen a news flash on CNBC stating that Turkey has sent warplanes into Iraq and are bombing the Kurds. This could get very serious very quickly.

Reuters Link

[toast]

Precisely what problem does the US have with Turkey attacking the separatist Kurds in northern Iraq? Why would this be seen as destabilizing to the region? Could it be that the US and Iraq fear, once Turkey enters the oil rich northern Iraq, they might decide to make it a permanent residence, for security reasons of course.