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THE Country of Turkey Thread (merged)

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Re: Turkey - what's going on?

Unread postby eXpat » Sun 14 Oct 2007, 05:28:48

Turkish Prime Minister could cut ties with US link (and with evebody else what the heck)

ANKARA, Turkey (AP) -- With Turkish-U.S. relations strained, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said Friday that Turkey would not be deterred by the diplomatic consequences if it decides to stage a cross-border offensive into Iraq against Kurdish rebels.
...
If such an option is chosen, whatever its price, it will be paid," Erdogan told reporters in response to a question about the international repercussions of such a decision, which would strain ties with the United States and Iraq. "There could be pros and cons of such a decision, but what is important is our country's interests."

Erdogan also had harsh words for the United States, which opposes a Turkish incursion into northern Iraq -- one of the country's few relatively stable areas.

"Did they seek permission from anyone when they came from a distance of 10,000 kilometers and hit Iraq?" he said. "We do not need anyone else's advice."
--
Erdogan said Turkey was ready to sacrifice good ties with Washington if necessary.
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Re: Turkey - what's going on?

Unread postby cephalotus » Sun 14 Oct 2007, 08:10:32

toast wrote:You're all wrong. The US will never give up control of Iraqi Kurdistan's oil to Turkey or anyone else. This is our oil.



Huh? I didn't know that "Kuridistan" is US territory...
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Re: Turkey - what's going on?

Unread postby cephalotus » Sun 14 Oct 2007, 08:19:35

Triffin wrote:
We ( the US ) should help them get their own country..


Great idea.

Which region do you suggest to establish their new country? Texas?

Or do you want to build the new Kurdistan next to or even in Turkey. Don't forget that Turkey is your ally, it's a NATO member and for most Turks creating a new Kurdistan would be similar to give Bin Laden & Al Qaeda their own new country in, lets say, Florida.

We live in the 21st century and not back in the days of colonies where countries have been created on the desks...
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Re: Turkey - what's going on?

Unread postby toast » Sun 14 Oct 2007, 14:13:03

cephalotus, I was just being an asshole to make a point.
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Re: Turkey - what's going on?

Unread postby toast » Sun 14 Oct 2007, 15:18:19

It's one big mess. The Kurds want to claim the oil for themself.

http://www.alternet.org/workplace/64941/
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Re: BREAKING NEWS: TURKEY INVADES IRAQ

Unread postby Ferretlover » Sun 14 Oct 2007, 18:15:41

Turkish general: U.S. 'shot its own foot'
Official warns of irreversible damage if Congress passes genocide resolution
ISTANBUL, Turkey - Turkey's top general warned that ties with the U.S., already strained by attacks from rebels hiding in Iraq, will be irreversibly damaged if Congress passes a resolution that labels the World War I-era killings of Armenians a genocide.
Turkey, which is a major cargo hub for U.S. and allied military forces in Iraq and Afghanistan, has recalled its ambassador to Washington for consultations and warned that there might be a cut in the logistical support to the U.S. over the issue. …
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Re: BREAKING NEWS: TURKEY INVADES IRAQ

Unread postby mos6507 » Sun 14 Oct 2007, 18:54:10

Ferretlover wrote:Turkish general: U.S. 'shot its own foot'
Official warns of irreversible damage if Congress passes genocide resolution
ISTANBUL, Turkey - Turkey's top general warned that ties with the U.S., already strained by attacks from rebels hiding in Iraq, will be irreversibly damaged if Congress passes a resolution that labels the World War I-era killings of Armenians a genocide.
Turkey, which is a major cargo hub for U.S. and allied military forces in Iraq and Afghanistan, has recalled its ambassador to Washington for consultations and warned that there might be a cut in the logistical support to the U.S. over the issue. …
Making friends everywhere


How many times have we seen pictures of Rumsfeld smiling and gladhanding Sadam during the 80s as a way of demonizing the Republicans for being cruel pragmatists? If this isn't an example of how a foreign policy with a conscience doesn't work I don't know what is. Obviously the Turks have no moral leg to stand on to dispute this resolution so the only argument is what is pragmatic, not what is morally correct.
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Re: Turkey - what's going on?

Unread postby zoidberg » Mon 15 Oct 2007, 01:58:20

toast wrote:It's one big mess. The Kurds want to claim the oil for themself.

http://www.alternet.org/workplace/64941/


Signing contracts with global oil companies means the Western majors. The article talks about independents making the bids - but they can be bought later if they strike it rich. Its a strong bet Iraqi Kurdistan is indeed trying to entice Turkey into a more commerical than imperial relationship, because oil produced under those contracts will go through Turkey first. Stay tuned for who actually signs the deals, European or American. I'd bet it'll be a majority European investment. Whether it'll be enough to overcome the war momentum, I'd say not. Sure as hell didnt help Iraq before 2003. It's their best card though. That and the tactics and weapons coming from the chaos in the south.
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Re: Turkey - what's going on?

Unread postby Carlhole » Mon 15 Oct 2007, 04:39:37

cephalotus wrote:
Triffin wrote:We ( the US ) should help them get their own country..


Which region do you suggest to establish their new country? Texas?


Establish it where The Kurds are now - Northern Iraq, or as it is frequentlycalled -"Iraqi Kurdistan".

Juan Cole's "Informed Comment" site has a good article on Turkey, The Armenians, The Kurds, American Assholism, etc.

Who Lost Turkey?

Juan Cole wrote:Turkey has been the strongest ally that the United States has had in the Middle East since the end of WW II. The Marshall Plan started with Northern tier states like Turkey and Greece. Turkey joined NATO and was a key player in the American victory in the Cold War. As a secular government, Turkey stood against the rising tide of Muslim radicalism. To the extent that Turkey is moderating its long-term secular militancy, and moving toward fair elections, it may be providing a model for a moderate, democratic Middle East. Its economy is growing rapidly, foreign investment is in the billions. Turkey is in short, almost everything the US could have asked for in the Middle East.

But the Bush administration has, during the past five years, increasingly thrown away this asset, and now is in danger of losing a close and valued ally altogether...


...Then, the US gave the Kurdistan Regional Authority control over the Kirkuk police force and unleashed Kurdish troops on the Turkmen city of Tal Afar. (The Turks look on Iraq's 800,000 Turkmen as little brethren, over whom they feel protective, and don't want them dominated by Kurds).

The Kurds promptly announced their aspiration of annexing 3 further provinces, or at least big swathes of them, including the oil province of Kirkuk, and including substantial Turkmen populations. Not only was that guaranteed to cause violence with the Arabs and Turkmen, but it would give Kurdistan a source of fabulous wealth with which it could hope to attract Kurds in neighboring countries to join it, a la German Unification after the fall of the Berlin Wall - except that this unification would dismember several other countries...


Don't forget to read the Comments section, too. There's some pretty good input there as well.

I now sort of think that the Bush Administration, through it's bumbling incompetence, has got itself a bunch of fires going in Turkey and Northern Iraq which it wishes it hadn't set. So the House Democrats have decided to throw gasoline on these already threatening blazes by condemning Turkey for the Armenian genocide 90 years ago.

Hilarious.

You know, you got a little skirmish here, a little terror attack there and pretty soon your talking about a real war.
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Re: Turkey - what's going on?

Unread postby Carlhole » Tue 16 Oct 2007, 00:50:35

Turkey fears Kurds, not Armenians

...For the past seven years I have argued that the West cannot avoid perpetual conflict in the Middle East, and, rather than seeking stability, should steer the instability towards its own ends. Washington should forget about Turkish support in Iraq, allow the Mesopotamian entity to disintegrate into its constituent parts, while helping the Kurds maintain autonomy against Iraq. That would teach the Turks to bite the hand that feeds them. A pro-Western Kurdish state would strengthen Washington’s hand throughout region, with adumbrations in Syria and Iran as well as Turkey.


Well, there you go... someone else thinks an American-backed Kurdistan is a good idea.
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Re: Turkey - what's going on?

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Wed 17 Oct 2007, 03:36:28

I think the oil in Iran & Saudi & Nigeria and other countries is located in ethnic minority regions. So the US just needs to set up pro-American dictatorships with "laws" that give EXXON all the oil.
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Re: Turkey - what's going on?

Unread postby Denny » Wed 17 Oct 2007, 11:01:29

From what I saw on the news this morning, it seems that things are in good hands with Turkey. What it boils down is that Kurdish terrorists (the KTT, I think they are called) have been attacking Turkish tropps and then moving over the Iraq boundary to escape reprisal. Turkey has complained numerous times to Iraq that they want these terrorists prevented from entering Iraq, or at least returned to Turkey to face justice, but Iraq has not responded properly, so Turkey is now taking care of the situation themselves, by going into Iraq after them. Just like if the police were chasing a suspect, they would keep going over a state or province line.

Seems if the Turkish army can get access to Iraq that easily, it doesn't say good gthings about Iraq's state of affairs. Nor does Turkey seem afraid of any pushback from Iraq. But, as for Turkey itself, it has no itent of expanding borders or the like.

Apparently Turkey has lost 13 soldiers due to terrorist attacks in the past few months.
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Re: Turkey - what's going on?

Unread postby Carlhole » Wed 17 Oct 2007, 14:10:38

Denny wrote:What it boils down is that Kurdish terrorists (the KTT, I think they are called) have been attacking Turkish tropps and then moving over the Iraq boundary to escape reprisal.


That's all true.

The US invasion of Iraq has "upset all the [ethnic] applecarts" in the neighborhood over there, as phrased by Spengler in the Asia Times the other day.

We can only wish that there were better on-the-spot journalistic coverage of these current events. It would have to accomplished by a journalist who could articulate the long, deep and simmering politics between the Turks and the Kurds. I think it's pretty interesting history myself.

Spengler, who writes for the Asia Times, surprisingly came out the other day for a Kurdish state which would include territory taken from both Turkey, Iran and Northern Iraq. Wow! That would seem like a recipe for war to me. But he insists that his views are well-considered over a period of many years of studying the situation.

It seemed to me from looking at it, that the US could USE the Kurds!
If the US were to strike a deal with the Kurds where the US gets a large military base in a new, Democratic, independent, Islamic Kurdistan, then the US would muscle Turkey and Iran to go along with it.

This would require some extensive deal-making that would probably include oil-flows and whatnot. But the military strength of the US to enforce such a long-shot deal would be greatly increased because America could train, equip and arm the Kurds who have quested for their own country for hundreds of years. It wouldn't be like our attempts to train the half-hearted Iraqi Army (whose allegiances also are ethnic-religious based).

It might be even be possible to include the Iraqi Sunnis in a new Kurdistan since the Kurds are Sunni also. I don't know.

America would sit there on it's big base, policing the whole situation, controlling the local economics (and the oil as well).

Why not?!!

The Shia get the south and its oil and their ties to Iran. They would have to deal with the behemoth to their north.
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Re: Turkey - what's going on?

Unread postby Ferretlover » Wed 17 Oct 2007, 14:25:34

Turkish lawmakers approve incursion into Iraq
Parliament approves possible cross-border move to chase Kurdish rebels
ANKARA, Turkey - Parliament on Wednesday overwhelmingly approved a possible cross-border offensive against Kurdish rebels in northern Iraq, although the government appears willing to give diplomatic pressure on the U.S.-backed Iraqi administration more time to work.
Lawmakers voted 507-19 in favor of empowering the government to order the military to cross into Iraq during a one-year period, Parliament Speaker Koksal Toptan said. They then burst into applause.
In Washington, President Bush said the United States was making clear to Turkey it should not send a massive number of troops into Iraq.
“We don’t think (that’s a fact!) it’s in their interest to send more troops in.” ...
And, they're off....
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Re: BREAKING NEWS: TURKEY INVADES IRAQ

Unread postby eXpat » Wed 17 Oct 2007, 15:36:05

Green light from the Turkish parliament to military accion link.

Turkey's parliament has approved by a large majority a government request to allow troops to cross into northern Iraq to crush Kurdish fighters based there.

Wednesday's parliamentary approval provides the legal basis for Nato's second biggest army to cross the mountainous border as and when it sees fit.
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Re: BREAKING NEWS: TURKEY INVADES IRAQ

Unread postby Troyboy1208 » Wed 17 Oct 2007, 20:11:07

Oh boy...
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Re: Turkey - what's going on?

Unread postby zoidberg » Thu 18 Oct 2007, 00:05:07

Carlhole wrote:Well, there you go... someone else thinks an American-backed Kurdistan is a good idea.


Do the Kurds? Do you think they rate American security guarantees worth a bottle of warm piss or spit? Would America fight for them against Turkey? How does America treat its allies in general? How much longer is America going to have a substantial presence in Iraq?

More to the point do you think the leaders in Kurdistan would risk their positions of leaders of the autonomous regions for the sake of Kurds in Turkey? They will and have fought amongst themselves before, and I'd bet money they'd let the Turks shoot the PKK fighters in return for leaving them their little fiefdoms.

Talabani
Barzani

These guys arent going to relinquish anything. They've agreed in the interim that Talabani can play president in Baghdad while Barzani tends the garden in Kurdistan, but Talabani is still the head of the PUK, and if Iraq continues to disintegrate I'm sure he'll go back to his old stomping grounds.

Bottom line is America can no more utilize a Kurdish state any more than it can keep Iraq together, or stop Iran from getting the bomb. 10 years from now when the world is wallowing in a peak oil induced depression they're simply not going to have the wherewithal to exert enough force in the region. Its barely sufficient as is. Turkey's increasing bold moves are a symptom of this weakness and this the primary signal to draw from their incursions into Iraq.
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Re: BREAKING NEWS: TURKEY INVADES IRAQ

Unread postby Armageddon » Thu 18 Oct 2007, 00:45:35

eXpat wrote:Green light from the Turkish parliament to military accion link.

Turkey's parliament has approved by a large majority a government request to allow troops to cross into northern Iraq to crush Kurdish fighters based there.

Wednesday's parliamentary approval provides the legal basis for Nato's second biggest army to cross the mountainous border as and when it sees fit.


For some reason when I think of the Turkish army, I visualize one tank, and thousands of hooded rebels holding shields in their arms and carrying swords running behind this tank. Not sure why.
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Re: BREAKING NEWS: TURKEY INVADES IRAQ

Unread postby Denny » Thu 18 Oct 2007, 01:02:44

[quote="Armageddon]
For some reason when I think of the Turkish army, I visualize one tank, and thousands of hooded rebels holding shields in their arms and carrying swords running behind this tank. Not sure why.[/quote]

Well, think again. According to Wikipedia:

" The Turkish Armed Forces is the second largest standing armed force in NATO, after the U.S. Armed Forces, with a combined strength of 1,043,550 uniformed personnel serving in its five branches.
...
In 1998, Turkey announced a program of modernization worth some US$31 billion over a ten year period in various projects including tanks, fighter jets, helicopters, submarines, warships and assault rifles. Turkey is also a Level 3 contributor to the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) program, gaining an opportunity to develop and influence the creation of the next generation fighter spearheaded by the United States"
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Re: Turkey - what's going on?

Unread postby Twilight » Thu 18 Oct 2007, 19:14:49

zoidberg wrote:Turkey's increasing bold moves are a symptom of this weakness and this the primary signal to draw from their incursions into Iraq.

This is what makes the biggest impression on me.

Come on, a second-rate NATO power is going it alone in the ME Gulf region, making its own policy on the hoof, and the US has no leverage. No leverage, guys. None. No reward to offer, no threat it could make. Days and days on CNN, saying "No, please don't do that! We'll make Congress stop it! Congress, cut it out now! You're pissing them off!"

That's what I'm seeing. Think back five years ago, how unthinkable this was in the popular imagination. And yet here we are. Not only is the whole 'loss of imperial influence' thesis right again, it got confirmed over breakfast last week. It shouldn't be surprising, but somehow it is surreal. Wow.

As an aside, Turkish gas prices have to be seen to be believed (they would make any European's eyes water), so don't assume happy motoring will figure heavily in their calculations.
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