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THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: Scientists invent cheap way to make gasoline from coal

Unread postby TheDude » Sat 28 Mar 2009, 13:25:22

Beat cheeks, pstarr. None of your unsullied gloom 'round here. We temper our despair with mild hope. :mrgreen:

All I can see in an advance here over standard F-T is that they've found a way to generate gasoline without using CO. In other words, big deal. The Sasol plant is still the largest pollution source in Africa, and attempting to provide a fraction of current US demand would result in a hell of a lot of new particulate smog, not to mention necessitating an uptick in removal of mountaintops. Coal really is the crappiest fossil fuel, viva conservation efforts!
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Re: Scientists invent cheap way to make gasoline from coal

Unread postby pstarr » Sat 28 Mar 2009, 13:33:56

TheDude wrote:Beat cheeks, pstarr. None of your unsullied gloom 'round here. We temper our despair with mild hope. :mrgreen:

All I can see in an advance here over standard F-T is that they've found a way to generate gasoline without using CO. In other words, big deal. The Sasol plant is still the largest pollution source in Africa, and attempting to provide a fraction of current US demand would result in a hell of a lot of new particulate smog, not to mention necessitating an uptick in removal of mountaintops. Coal really is the crappiest fossil fuel, viva conservation efforts!
Yeah. And the Germans and the South Africans both lost for good reasons.

People who dirty their own nest to win an ideological battle are losers.
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Re: Scientists invent cheap way to make gasoline from coal

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 28 Mar 2009, 15:25:20

pstarr wrote:Plant....there is nothing new or of consequence in this linked article or your presentation (other than a reference to a respected journal Science-


The editors of SCIENCE and the highly qualified peer reviewers obviously had a more positive reaction to this new discovery then you did---but then they have an advantage over you in that they actually know something about the significance of the scientific research involved. :roll:
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Re: Scientists invent cheap way to make gasoline from coal

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 28 Mar 2009, 15:39:59

"Glasser's new production method allows them to set a lower limit on the amount of energy that would be needed to transform solid coal into fuel. The very best possible CTL process would require 350 megawatts of input to make 80,000 gallons of fuel; the current process uses more than 1,000 megawatts....... Ben Glasser defended the work as a good intermediate step that would help keep energy flowing even as oil reservoirs dwindle.

----------

The signfiicance of this new research is clear to anyone with a brain.

Reducing the amount of energy input needed to transform coal to gasoline by 2/3 dramatically IMPROVES THE EROI.

This in turn has the potential to keep gasoline flowing even as oil reservoirs dwindle.
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Re: Scientists invent cheap way to make gasoline from coal

Unread postby pstarr » Sat 28 Mar 2009, 16:42:30

BOLDED appeals to authority remain logical fallacies. There is no content in the article nor in your presentation of it.

What about this Science article suggests changes to the CTL process that will render it eroei-useful and ecologically sane?
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Re: Scientists invent cheap way to make gasoline from coal

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 28 Mar 2009, 21:53:31

pstarr wrote:There is no content


So you say.

The editors of the journal SCIENCE say differently. They obviously thought the new gassification process was an important scientific discovery or they wouldn't have published it in their journal.

The journal SCIENCE, along with NATURE, are the most prestigious scientific publications on the planet. It is very difficult to get research pubiished in these journals unless it is among the most important research being done today.

Should I believe my colleagues in the scientific community who have actually read the paper, or should I believe Pstarr who hasn't read the scientific paper about the importance of this new discovery? Hmmm....thats a tough one.

Well, after a nanosecond of deliberation, I'll have to disagree with your opinion and agree with the editors of SCIENCE and the peer reviewers and the authors of the WIRED magazine article and other news articles that this discovery is indeed very important.

-------

PS: If you actually want to read the paper before you dismiss it again, I can't link to the original paper in SCIENCE because it is a subscription only site. I therefore suggest you buy an AAAS membership and subscribe to SCIENCE or that you buy the magazine or actually read the paper before you dismiss its findings.

CHEERS! [smilie=headbang.gif]
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Re: Scientists invent cheap way to make gasoline from coal

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 29 Mar 2009, 01:06:31

SCIENCE
I am smarter than you.
SCIENCE
I am smarter than you.
SCIENCE
I am smarter than you.
SCIENCE
I am smarter than you.

kind of infantile don't ya think?
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Re: Scientists invent cheap way to make gasoline from coal

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 29 Mar 2009, 01:08:45

How about this?

Why don't you Plant explain to the audience how this new process will revolutionize CTL? I am waiting. We all are.
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Re: Scientists invent cheap way to make gasoline from coal

Unread postby Tanada » Sun 29 Mar 2009, 04:21:51

pstarr wrote:How about this?

Why don't you Plant explain to the audience how this new process will revolutionize CTL? I am waiting. We all are.


Actually we are not all waiting for the information to be broken down into itty bitty baby steps so that we could understand it and still dismiss it, some of us actually have the capacity to research for ourselves things we wish to refute to determine if they are true or not.

The new process description puts it somewhere between traditional Fischer-Tropsh CTL processes and the Thermodepolymerization techniques developed by the Anything into Oil wet process they were using on ag waste in Carthage, MO. Both of those methods demonstrably produce usable fuel from coal, albeit at a substantial cost premium over conventional petroleum. If this process is as energy efficient as claimed (one third the energy input that F-T CTL plants use) then it will quickly become the favored method because everyone building a CTL plant will want to use it over the older less energy efficient methods. If on the other hand it doesn't work as well it will fall by the wayside, unless it is subsidized by some third party effect.
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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Re: Scientists invent cheap way to make gasoline from coal

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 07 Apr 2009, 16:45:37

pstarr wrote:..... appeals to authority.....


This argument is a classic example of the way scientific illiteracy handicaps Americans in their understanding of technological issues. In religion and poltics, arguments are often made on the basis of "appeals to authority"....i.e. on the basis of supporting argument made by someone famous and reputable.

In contrast, scientific research and scientific papers have absolutely nothing to do with "appeals to authority." A published paper presents research findings. Those research findings are facts. It really doesn't matter what any supposed authority says or doesn't say.

In this case, the discovery I am discussing is of a cheaper way to make gasoline from coal. Those research findings are simply facts. Individuals may or may not like the facts and their implications, but its silly to try to dismiss these facts on the basis of "appeals to authority."
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Re: Scientists invent cheap way to make gasoline from coal

Unread postby vision-master » Tue 07 Apr 2009, 16:47:04

In contrast, scientific research and scientific papers have absolutely nothing to do with "appeals to authority." A published paper presents research findings. Those research findings are facts. It really doesn't matter what any supposed authority says or doesn't say.


Not true. :lol:
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Re: Scientists invent cheap way to make gasoline from coal

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 07 Apr 2009, 16:50:52

Plantagenet wrote:
pstarr wrote:..... appeals to authority.....


This argument is a classic example of the way scientific illiteracy handicaps Americans in their understanding of technological issues. In religion and poltics, arguments are often made on the basis of "appeals to authority"....i.e. on the basis of supporting argument made by someone famous and reputable.

In contrast, scientific research and scientific papers have absolutely nothing to do with "appeals to authority." A published paper presents research findings. Those research findings are facts. It really doesn't matter what any supposed authority says or doesn't say.

In this case, the discovery I am discussing is of a cheaper way to make gasoline from coal. Those research findings are simply facts. Individuals may or may not like the facts and their implications, but its silly to try to dismiss these facts on the basis of "appeals to authority."

Image

What authority do you cite for saying scientific research isn't based on facts? :roll:
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Re: Scientists invent cheap way to make gasoline from coal

Unread postby vision-master » Tue 07 Apr 2009, 17:09:14

Plantagenet wrote:
Plantagenet wrote:
pstarr wrote:..... appeals to authority.....


This argument is a classic example of the way scientific illiteracy handicaps Americans in their understanding of technological issues. In religion and poltics, arguments are often made on the basis of "appeals to authority"....i.e. on the basis of supporting argument made by someone famous and reputable.

In contrast, scientific research and scientific papers have absolutely nothing to do with "appeals to authority." A published paper presents research findings. Those research findings are facts. It really doesn't matter what any supposed authority says or doesn't say.

In this case, the discovery I am discussing is of a cheaper way to make gasoline from coal. Those research findings are simply facts. Individuals may or may not like the facts and their implications, but its silly to try to dismiss these facts on the basis of "appeals to authority."

Image

What authority do you cite for saying scientific research isn't based on facts? :roll:


Oil Companies, Drug Companies, Insurance Companies, Auto Companies, Mortgage Companies.............. :mrgreen:

Just of the AP
In the German site they tell that Giampaolo Giuliani, a scientist who claims to be able to predict earthquakes by measuring radon gas.
He predicted this one, warned the authorities and published his predictions but was silenced by the authorities.
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Re: Scientists invent cheap way to make gasoline from coal

Unread postby dinopello » Tue 07 Apr 2009, 17:30:22

pstarr wrote:BOLDED appeals to authority remain logical fallacies. There is no content in the article nor in your presentation of it.


Hey, at least he is appealing to authority this time instead of just making it up himself. :P
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Re: Scientists invent cheap way to make gasoline from coal

Unread postby vision-master » Tue 07 Apr 2009, 17:32:06

dinopello wrote:
pstarr wrote:BOLDED appeals to authority remain logical fallacies. There is no content in the article nor in your presentation of it.


Hey, at least he is appealing to authority this time instead of just making it up himself. :P


or just flip-flopping. :lol:
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Re: Coal is a fossil fuel

Unread postby bodigami » Sun 12 Apr 2009, 19:25:05

pstarr wrote:In the best of times, Haikus.
In the worst, Loughkus.


What's Loughkus?
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Re: Coal is a fossil fuel

Unread postby breakthesky » Thu 23 Apr 2009, 17:35:57

damienian wrote:­Coal is a fossil fuel


That is just right wing propoganda. Coal is a renewable resource DUH! I read it on wikipedia which says it's also made of gum drops and candy canes.
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Re: Coal is a fossil fuel

Unread postby hironegro » Sat 25 Apr 2009, 19:15:25

You shouldn’t expect any serious answers here.

Clean coal is essential capture and storage of the co2 emitted while burning the coal. The method is unproved, due to the fact that there isn't even a test plant.
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Re: Coal is a fossil fuel

Unread postby pstarr » Sat 25 Apr 2009, 19:49:00

hironegro wrote:You shouldn’t expect any serious answers here.

Clean coal is essential capture and storage of the co2 emitted while burning the coal. The method is unproved, due to the fact that there isn't even a test plant.
That's cause you would have to put it somewhere and them make it sit and stay. [smilie=XXdog.gif]
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Mountaintop removal for coal

Unread postby Serial_Worrier » Wed 29 Apr 2009, 18:16:11

totally devastating to the environment, yet unavoidable because of NIMBYism on nuclear energy. So tragic to be held hostage by the environmentalist wackos like this.

link

{oversized image changed to link by SPG.}
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