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THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sun 27 Aug 2017, 14:20:45

"...but the same metric does not hold true in China, India, Turkey or most of the rest of the world..."

Not exactly sure what that means. But the US produces more electricity from coal then any other country except China. And twice as much as #3 India. And Turkey? Not even in the top 10. And #10, England? The US produces more then 10X the amount of electricity from coal as England.

No, the US isn't "the world". But noting that the US is one of the largest producers and consumers of coal on the plant as well as a leading electricity generator from coal is not f*cking "parochial" by any measure.

Anyone can try to pretend it is not true but by any measure China and the US are King Coal and Queen Coal. LOL. So it isn't just President Trump telling the Paris Accord to go f*ck itself: so did the collective citizens of the USA. Including President Obama and all the D's in Congress: their words may have represented otherwise but their actions did not.
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby GHung » Mon 08 Jan 2018, 18:56:22

Federal regulator rejects Trump coal rescue plan

Federal regulators have rejected a controversial Trump administration proposal that would have propped up slumping coal companies.

The Federal Energy Regulatory Commission dismissed Energy Secretary Rick Perry's call to subsidize power plants like coal and nuclear that maintain a 90-day supply of fuel on site. Perry cited a need to improve the resilience of the nation's power grid, especially from severe weather.

The proposal, which was supported by coal mining companies like Murray Energy, was widely seen as an attempt to help the coal and nuclear industry. Coal, in particular, has been crushed in recent years by the rise of cleaner energy like natural gas and solar and by tougher environmental regulation.

In a blow to Trump's campaign promise to help coal country, FERC on Monday terminated a rulemaking process that Perry had launched.

The independent agency, which is run by bipartisan commissioners appointed by the president and confirmed by the Senate, faced a Wednesday deadline to rule on the matter.

FERC did decide to take steps to evaluate the resilience of the power system. It directed regional transmission organizations and independent system operators, which move electricity through the grid, to submit information. FERC said it expects to "promptly decide whether additional Commission action is warranted to address grid resilience." ......

.......The Energy Department said the rule was needed to "address the crisis at hand" regarding the resilience of the electric grid. The department cited the 2014 extreme cold snap known as the Polar Vortex as well as natural disasters such as Hurricanes Sandy, Harvey and Irma.

However, some analysts pointed out that power outages are usually caused by downed power lines, not a short supply of fuel. Less than 0.1% of all electricity disturbances over the last five years were caused by fuel supply emergencies, according to a report by the Rhodium Group, a research firm. .....
http://money.cnn.com/2018/01/08/investi ... index.html
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 08 Jan 2018, 19:22:07

GHung wrote:
Federal regulator rejects Trump coal rescue plan

Federal regulators have rejected a controversial Trump administration proposal that would have propped up slumping coal companies.

The Federal Energy Regulatory Commission dismissed Energy Secretary Rick Perry's call to subsidize power plants like coal and nuclear that maintain a 90-day supply of fuel on site. Perry cited a need to improve the resilience of the nation's power grid, especially from severe weather.

The proposal, which was supported by coal mining companies like Murray Energy, was widely seen as an attempt to help the coal and nuclear industry. Coal, in particular, has been crushed in recent years by the rise of cleaner energy like natural gas and solar and by tougher environmental regulation.

In a blow to Trump's campaign promise to help coal country, FERC on Monday terminated a rulemaking process that Perry had launched.

The independent agency, which is run by bipartisan commissioners appointed by the president and confirmed by the Senate, faced a Wednesday deadline to rule on the matter.

FERC did decide to take steps to evaluate the resilience of the power system. It directed regional transmission organizations and independent system operators, which move electricity through the grid, to submit information. FERC said it expects to "promptly decide whether additional Commission action is warranted to address grid resilience." ......

.......The Energy Department said the rule was needed to "address the crisis at hand" regarding the resilience of the electric grid. The department cited the 2014 extreme cold snap known as the Polar Vortex as well as natural disasters such as Hurricanes Sandy, Harvey and Irma.

However, some analysts pointed out that power outages are usually caused by downed power lines, not a short supply of fuel. Less than 0.1% of all electricity disturbances over the last five years were caused by fuel supply emergencies, according to a report by the Rhodium Group, a research firm. .....
http://money.cnn.com/2018/01/08/investi ... index.html

The spouses and children or those that voted against the Trump position on this issue should be very afraid. Within a year their principle bread winner will be out of work and blacklisted and they will be applying for welfare and might even be deigned that.
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby GoghGoner » Tue 09 Jan 2018, 06:36:30

Coal's global bust cycle ended a year ago. Even in the US more coal than NG has been burning this winter. Commodities (more or less) all follow the same general cycle.

Coal price near USD 100 seen gains after best year since 2012

Newcastle coal is forecast to average USD 84 a tonne this year as China extends a strategy started in 2016 to reduce domestic output and streamline its industry, according to UBS Group AG analyst Lachlan Shaw. Prices are trading near USD 100 after averaging about USD 87 last year, the most since 2012. Miners are benefiting from the surge, including Australian producer New Hope Corp., which capped its first annual increase in six years.
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Subjectivist » Tue 09 Jan 2018, 09:16:23

There are 5 FERC commissioners yet the article doesn’t say either who voted which way or that the vote was unanimous. Really not much info but lots of opinion.
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Wed 10 Jan 2018, 16:51:47

Sub - Here you go from Reuters:

"On Jan. 8, the five commissioners, four of them nominated by President Donald Trump, agreed unanimously to reject the proposed rule and instead opt for a further study of resilience issues."
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Subjectivist » Wed 10 Jan 2018, 19:09:11

ROCKMAN wrote:Sub - Here you go from Reuters:

"On Jan. 8, the five commissioners, four of them nominated by President Donald Trump, agreed unanimously to reject the proposed rule and instead opt for a further study of resilience issues."


Thanx, I couldn’t find it.
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Thu 11 Jan 2018, 16:47:42

Sub - Reuters is typically my first go-to. Interesting 4 were nominated by the POTUS. Guess he didn't run the "loyalty test" on them. LOL.
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 11 Jan 2018, 17:28:37

The Boston Globe had an opinion piece today that discussed the recent cold snap and how coal and oil were making most of the power. I was reading a traditional hard copy so don't have a link to it that isn't pay walled. The author had figured out that NIMBY resistance to natural gas pipelines and off shore wind plus the closing of nuclear power plants had forced to power companies to turn to the traditional ,cheaper and dirtier supplies. The expression "letting the perfect be the enemy of the good" came up.
Worth a read if you have access. 8)
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 26 Mar 2018, 18:12:40

Coal fleet in USA decreasing:

“I think what is happening is that operators are running their coal plants until they need major capital expenditures (capex), and then they are shutting them down.”

"Eventually, the remaining plants may reach the point where they're unable to earn sufficient margin to justify ongoing maintenance and will effectively be run to failure ... "

https://www.utilitydive.com/news/a-comp ... ve/519076/

Half of All U.S. Coal Plants Would Lose Money Without Regulation...
‘Plants persist even when they cost more to run than replace’


It’s long been clear that U.S. coal plants are struggling. A study released Monday shows how much -- concluding that barely half earned enough revenue last year to cover their operating expenses.

Power grids may face “massive” upheaval as more uneconomic plants close, according to the report by Bloomberg New Energy Finance. The problem is particularly bad in Florida, Georgia and elsewhere in the Southeast, where the distance from major coal mines drives up prices. The study examined the monthly economic performance of every U.S. coal plant in operation since 2012.

Still, many coal plants manage to shield themselves from economics. About 95 percent of those with operating expenses exceeding revenue operate in regions where regulators set rates, the study found. Instead of allowing market forces to determine their fate, regulators and utilities often keep struggling plants open to ensure stability on their grids.

“We find ourselves awestruck by the resilience of U.S. coal,” wrote William Nelson and Sophia Liu, the report’s authors. “Plants persist even when they cost more to run than replace.”



https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... regulation
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 26 Mar 2018, 20:45:20

Grid stability is worth paying for.
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby baha » Tue 27 Mar 2018, 04:06:57

I can give you grid stability for a reasonable fee... and a big pile of Lithium.

But instead of burning the lithium and polluting the world with CO2 and ash, I will just put it in a can and use it to store spare electrons. In ten years when the lithium is tired I can open the can, reprosses the lithium. and start again.

I could put the battery storage plant right where that nasty old coal plant used to be. The wires are already there.

There was an article yesterday about wind power potential in NC. It seems we could produce 5 times the power we use with offshore wind farms. Then we could use a superconducting DC transmission line to connect to the battery facility located where the coal plant used to be.

What the hell are we waiting for?
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby baha » Tue 27 Mar 2018, 04:21:42

Oh, I remember...

We are too busy taking peoples land thru eminent domain and building NG pipelines. What a waste of money...the old ways die hard.
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The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby GoghGoner » Tue 27 Mar 2018, 04:42:15

Long live coal?

Full-scale Construction of Coal Gasification Furnace Begins at 540 MW IGCC Plant in Fukushima

Nakoso IGCC Power's construction of the IGCC plant—the world's most advanced coal-fired power plant—is being developed to create industrial infrastructure and contribute to the revitalization of Fukushima Prefecture.
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby baha » Tue 27 Mar 2018, 06:45:26

This is why I don't buy Japanese cars. They are very good at taking existing technology and making it efficient and reliable. They are not as good at coming up with original designs or style.

I will look at the big picture, take my risk, and show some style :)
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 27 Mar 2018, 08:06:51

Storage and production are two different things.As we build more intermittent renewable power producers we will need to develop and build storage to make that viable but the combination of renewable power and it's storage will always be more expensive then a simple coal fired plant with it's ability to store a years fuel in the yard and produce peak power on schedule. We will phase out coal for the pollution and climate change concerns but we should not do it until we have built and tested the replacement system.
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 27 Mar 2018, 11:46:13

I just don't believe that. This is a recent aerial photo of the Edgewater power station on the West coast of Lake Michigan in Sheboyban, Wisconsin. This is now an Alliant Energy Center, although it was originally constructed by another company.
Image
This former coal plant has completed a six year natural gas conversion which mainly involved the construction of a large diameter gas main, an expense shared with the nearby city of Sheboygan's taxpayers, because the city's residences are now also primarily heated by natural gas, thanks to the fracking boom.

Note the large heaps of coal. The green "hills" are coal heaps that have been there long enough to grow a cover of vegetation. The black coal heaps are more recent. There are no coal trains in the above photo, because in actual fact they have been burning mainly gas for years, although they retain the coal pulverizers and the large "vortex" blowers that enable relatively efficient combustion of coal dust. The coal heaps above represent several weeks of standby fuel, ready to be consumed via the large conveyers you see to feed the coal pulverizers.

As originally built seven decades ago, the Edgewater facility burned Eastern "hard" coals, delivered by barge from Pennsylvania. In more recent years, the railroad tracks you see were added and the softer "brown" coals of Wyoming have been burned. This power plant is being renewed on a regular capital replacement cycle, but it remains a large facility whose primary fuel source is powdered coal, which can still be delivered by docks and railroad tracks. It was not designed to burn natural gas, and it is very definately not being converted to a natural gas "co-generation" power plant that would use gas more efficiently, it remains a classic high pressure steam turbine facility.

The reason that the very expensive gas main was constructed at all was the pending deadline that POTUS Obama imposed by Executive Order when he set in place his famous "Clean Power Plan". This in fact is the reason that US carbon dioxide production dipped in 2017, as utilities prepared to transition coal plants to cleaner fuels.

In fact tomorrow, March 28, 2018, represents the one year anniversary of Trump's repeal of the Clean Power Plan. I expect that as a consequence the EIA figures for 2018 will not show a continuing reduction in the USA's carbon emissions. I also want to express the opinion that Trump's repeal of the Clean Power Plan will have effectively slowed the USA's conversion to renewable energy sources.

Furthermore, should market conditions dictate a natural gas shortage (or if such a shortage occurs for any reason, for example a Middle Eastern war) the USA's consumption of coal and carbon emissions will spike upwards again. One of the things that makes coal a good standby fuel is that you can just leave it lying on the ground in a heap - such as the years-old coal heaps above at Edgewater - and then burn it, even if it's wet and covered with green grass.

Believe me, it is painful for me to point these things out. I HATE coal power plants because of the toxics they emit. Not only do they make active emissions while in use (which have to be "scrubbed" from the stacks with a spray of limestone slurry) but decades of coal consumption also leave a long term toxic legacy of radioactive emissions and heavy metals, which serve to poison the areas around the plants, and introduce these same toxics to the human food chain via crops and animal feed grains.

So expect that US coal consumption is poised to resume at higher rates than ever, reversing recent trends and ending the good news about renewables. I really do wish this were not so, I'm a huge fan of renewable energy sources.
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 27 Mar 2018, 12:05:25

A couple of things there KJ. One, natural gas is not a renewable fuel so switching to it is a matter of regulation and price. Two, Obama's war on coal was way too fast and was actively putting the cart before the horse just as I cautioned against in my post above.
Three, It will take an awful lot of windmills and solar panels to replace that plant but they probably will build them eventually. By that time we may have truly passed peak oil and will likely be distilling coal oil (kerosene) from coal to fly our jets and run our other diesel engines.
When I said we will phase out coal I meant over decades.
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 27 Mar 2018, 12:14:50

I well understand that NG is a FF and not a renewable. It is however a relatively clean way to power the transition from petroleum to electricity for transport fuels.

Oil literally is too precious to burn as transport fuel, we should be using the petrochemicals for plastics and myriad other purposes. Ethanol really is too precious to burn either, it should be consumed directly, except it really is too early for that, at least on the West Coast.

The human race has never been good at long term thinking, which drives me bonkers to think about, so I mostly don't.
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby kublikhan » Tue 27 Mar 2018, 13:38:31

Baha, did you get a chance to watch this link Tanada posted previously: 100% Renewables (100% WWS) Roadmap. It's 24 minutes so watch it when you have some free time.
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