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THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby litesong » Fri 07 Oct 2016, 19:34:08

Tanada wrote:Coal has been used since at least Ancient Greece..... That is human nature


Rich people sent lots of poor people into mines that gave those poor people short lives. Many rich people died..... from rich men's diseases, as they lived on the wealth developed by poor people.

Coal fumes killed 4000+ people in London in a very short time, shortening the lives of many who should have lived longer. People using coal to save money, could pay for the cancer costs of their neighbors breathing their dirtiness, but they never do. Me... I'll leave the Greeks with their national trauma.

I adore the wondrous efficiency of electric motors, running on the wondrously clean hydro & wind turbine. There appears to be a break-thu in more efficient solar panels, so solar may become more economical.
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Subjectivist » Fri 07 Oct 2016, 20:41:10

litesong wrote:
Tanada wrote:Coal has been used since at least Ancient Greece..... That is human nature


Rich people sent lots of poor people into mines that gave those poor people short lives. Many rich people died..... from rich men's diseases, as they lived on the wealth developed by poor people.

Coal fumes killed 4000+ people in London in a very short time, shortening the lives of many who should have lived longer. People using coal to save money, could pay for the cancer costs of their neighbors breathing their dirtiness, but they never do. Me... I'll leave the Greeks with their national trauma.

I adore the wondrous efficiency of electric motors, running on the wondrously clean hydro & wind turbine. There appears to be a break-thu in more efficient solar panels, so solar may become more economical.


What you say about coal is true, but your solar panels and windmills gave a very long way to go to produce the cheap power available from coal. Poor folks world wide will burn coal because they can get jobs in those dirty mines and pay for the coal and food and shelter for their families.
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Fri 07 Oct 2016, 22:24:59

tita - So good of you to admit being a member of the group that produces the vast majority of GHG. But don't feel guilty about being part of the 5% of the global population burning 25% of the oil: there are very few Americans that can survive with no fossil fuel consumption. After all you do have a high percentage of alt energy. Thank goodness the fossil industry could supply energy needed to develop it.

Fortunately your Democrat politicians sound like they are making good use of that big chunk of tax revenue the state is receiving from the fossil fuel refining industry...the fifth largest in the country. A state with a refining capacity of 10 BILLION GALLONS PER YEAR. Essentially the state feeds California's huge thirst for motor fuel...I'm sure they are very appreciative. Refiners that are cracking the Alaskan oil that travels the very same route as the Exxon Valdez did also years ago. In fact In Alaska and Canada provided the majority of crude supply to Washington State refineries. IOW the state refines some of the "dirtiest oil" on the planet...Alberta oil sands. And, of course, in the future will refine the oil from the new giant oil field discovered in the pristine Alaskan wilderness. And probably any that might eventually be produced from the Artic Ocean. And I'm sure your refineries greatly appreciate the big supply of hydro power they have to help crack those 10 BILLION GALLONS per year.

And you point at R's but in the 2012 election the D's dominated both national elections and your state senate? I wonder who would be judged more hypocritical by most folks: an R climate denier from a major refinery product consuming state or a D climate supporter from a major refinery producing state?

And I wouldn't call you hypocritical...you are setting a good example. But you do live in a glass-housed D state so perhaps you should be a tad more careful tossing around those verbal rocks. LOL.
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby GoghGoner » Tue 01 Nov 2016, 05:52:10

Wow, November prices for Australian coal are back up to 2012 levels. Chinese officials say that the price rise is irrational and will not be sustained, however, that is what they said in August and it has gone up another 30% since then. Ouch.

http://www.barchart.com/chart.php?sym=LQX16&t=BAR&size=M&v=2&g=1&p=WN&d=X&qb=1&style=technical&template=

Looking at the 30-day temperature chart, it appears that it has been abnormally cold in China. Quite a squeeze going on, they better hope for more seasonable temps to get this price rise under control.

http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/psd/map/images/rnl/sfctmpmer_30b.rnl.html
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Subjectivist » Tue 01 Nov 2016, 09:36:49

Once China gets their mining sector back up to capacity the shortage should dissipate. I wonder how prices will look in a year after this artificial shortfall has alleviated?
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 22 Mar 2017, 12:22:02

Coal in 'freefall' as new power plants dive by two-thirds in 2016

The amount of new coal power being built around the world fell by nearly two-thirds last year, prompting campaigners to claim the polluting fossil fuel was in freefall.

The dramatic decline in new coal-fired units was overwhelmingly due to policy shifts in China and India and subsequent declining investment prospects, according to a report by Greenpeace, the US-based Sierra Club and research network CoalSwarm.

The report said the amount of new capacity starting construction was down 62% in 2016 on the year before, and work was frozen at more than a hundred sites in China and India. In January, China’s energy regulator halted work on a further 100 new coal-fired projects, suggesting the trend was not going away.

Researchers for the groups said a record amount of coal power station capacity was also retired globally last year, mostly in the US and EU, including Scotland closing its last one.

One of the reasons for the fall in new plants was that too much capacity had been built in recent years, particularly in China.
...
In total, 64GW of coal capacity was retired last year, mainly in the US and EU. Despite US President Donald Trump saying on Monday that he is preparing a new executive order to help America’s ailing coal industry, campaigners echoed analysts who have said he is unlikely to be able to significantly stop its decline.

“Markets are demanding clean energy, and no amount of rhetoric from Donald Trump will be able to stop the fall of coal in the US and across the globe,” said Nicole Ghio, senior campaigner at the Sierra Club, a US-based NGO which has managed to force many US coal plants to close over the last decade....


https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... hina-india
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Wed 22 Mar 2017, 13:15:38

"The amount of new coal power being built around the world fell by nearly two-thirds last year...". IOW about 1/3 as many NEW coal fired plants were built that year as in the previous year. So more coal fired plants being built is good news? And why not as many new plants: "One of the reasons for the fall in new plants was that too much capacity had been built in recent years, particularly in China.". So again: we have so much f*cking coal burning capacity we didn't need to build as many new plants. So having a sh*t load of new coal burning capacity is the good news this article offers? LOL.

And now let's address the future of coal burning. And why not look at the expectations who actually risk $billions on the correctness of such productions compared to any novice that can make predictions risk free on the Internet. So what do the folks investing in coal futures in the European market (land of some of the greenest folks on the planet) at Rotterdam: in the last 14 months coal futures have increased about 90%. From $36/ton to $70/ton.

https://www.theice.com/products/243/Rot ... tures/data

Apparently some see a bright future for coal. Not a difficult call given the Aussies are selling their coal for 70% more then they were last summer.

Sure, King Coal is dead. But someone should tell him to stop dancing around. LOL.
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 22 Mar 2017, 13:37:56

Like ROCKMAN said, this is a fluff piece written to deceive and attract dollars to the three named organizations by claiming they are 'winning the fight against coal'.

It is very reminiscent of all the screaming about budget cuts any time the rate of increase in spending is slowed by even a penny on the dollar. The rate of increase of coal is 1/3rd of what it was two years ago. Okay what does that mean in numbers that matter? Well two years ago they were still building a new cola fired power plant every two weeks in China. So cut that rate by 2/3 and that means they are now building a new coal fired power station every six weeks, or IOW adding 9 new massive coal burners in 2016 and another 9 in 2017 instead of 27 new plants each year. Sure we are adding coal capacity at a slower rate, but we are sure as heck adding coal capacity no matter how you try and slice and dice the numbers.

The last paragraph you quoted is pure unadulterated BS if I ever heard it!
“Markets are demanding clean energy, and no amount of rhetoric from Donald Trump will be able to stop the fall of coal in the US and across the globe,” said Nicole Ghio, senior campaigner at the Sierra Club, a US-based NGO which has managed to force many US coal plants to close over the last decade....

Markets are doing no such thing. Consumers are demanding energy and the EU and USA are still heavily subsidizing both Solar and Wind f you look at the state, local and even federal incentives ranging from outright subsidies to advantaged tax plans for the 'clean' sources. The market such as it is goes to the lowest cost source in each area, in Europe where subsidies favor renewables they go there, in the USA where natural Gas is cheapest we are building lots of gas burners, but in China and India where they have local coal but not local natural gas and can't afford 'renewable' subsidies they are going for coal, in a big way.
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Wed 22 Mar 2017, 17:33:33

Tanada is right. For those of you who don't already know this, I "invested" $7500 a decade ago in a project that Obama said was "shovel ready" and "would be expedited" in 2007, in his first presidential campaign when he was painting himself green. It was the offshore wind farm called "Cape Wind", which would be located offshore on the shallows of the Georges Banks near Cape Cod MA. Read all about it:

https://www.capewind.org/

....the short version would be that the web page has not been updated in two years, the stock is no longer publicly traded and the last price was about 1/50th of what I paid, and there is nothing happening.

The REASON that Cape Wind was proposed was to replace 22 coal-fired power plants located on the Cape and along the shore in Massachutsetts. These plants emit enough stack pollutants to kill ~1600 people outright every year on the heavily populated East Coast, and cause another ~3200 to sicken from respiratory diseases.

Since I gave Cape Wind my money a decade ago, that would be 16,000 deaths and 32,000 people sickened. But it's only a small part of the larger coal deathprint in our nation:
Image

If you care to understand WHY this offshore wind farm has not been built, it is politics. The Kennedy/Shriver family opposes it because it would (barely) be visible from their 13,000 square foot "cottage" (aka "the Kennedy compound") in Hyanisport, MA. So they formed a partnership with the arch-Republican Koch Brothers, who own the coal contracts for those power plants that are killing and sickening people.

IOW, politics as usual.
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby kublikhan » Wed 22 Mar 2017, 18:23:57

EIA expects growth in coal-fired electricity generation to contribute to a 4% increase in [US] coal production in 2017. [US] Coal production is expected to be unchanged in 2018.

US Coal___ 2015 2016 2017 2018
Production 897_ 739_ 768_ 767
Consumpt. 798_ 730_ 736_ 734
amounts in millions of short tons
SHORT-TERM ENERGY OUTLOOK
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby kublikhan » Wed 22 Mar 2017, 18:51:29

India becomes 2nd largest coal consumer behind China. US slips to 3rd place.

Coal and lignite domestic consumption
China 3,732 Mt
India__ 990 Mt
US____ 730 Mt
Coal and lignite domestic consumption
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Wed 22 Mar 2017, 23:37:34

KJ - "I "invested" $7500 a decade ago in a project that Obama said was "shovel ready"...the offshore wind farm called "Cape Wind".

Too bad you didn't invest in Texas wind: during that period our capacity grew 400%. Now solar might be the next alt energy boom in Texas. It will be able to take advantage of the $7 billion upgrade of our grid that was done to facilitate our wind power expansion.
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Zarquon » Thu 23 Mar 2017, 21:44:49

Tanada wrote:...building a new cola fired power plant every two weeks in China.


Burp.

Sorry, couldn't help it.
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby kublikhan » Fri 07 Apr 2017, 14:43:50

China coal consumption change yoy:
2014: -1.3%
2015: -3.7%
2016: -4.7%

New figures published by China’s National Burea of Statistics show that while the country’s total energy consumption increased by 1.4% in 2016, the country’s coal consumption declined by 4.7%.
...
China’s solar and wind energy capacity increased by 74% and 34%, respectively, in 2015, while coal consumption dropped by 3.7%.
China’s Coal Consumption Declines Despite Increasing Energy Consumption

Image

In 2016, China’s solar capacity grew a staggering 81.6% to 77GW, double the total installed in the US. Wind power grew 13.2% to 149GW – roughly a third of all wind energy is located in China. As a result of these factors and a new, slower economic growth model, Xu said: “I don’t think coal consumption is going to rebound in the next several years, but will rather plateau, meaning it will remain stable or decrease slowly.”
China coal use fell again in 2016, solar capacity rose 82%
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Subjectivist » Sun 09 Apr 2017, 17:18:43

The proposed Adani coal mine, which will be Australia's biggest, has been granted unlimited access to groundwater by the Queensland government in a move farmers fear will drain huge amounts of water from the Great Artesian Basin.

According to a copy of Adani's water licence signed last Wednesday and obtained by Fairfax Media, the $16 billion Carmichael mine merely needs to monitor and report the amount of water it extracts under a permit that runs until 2077.

The mine – one of nine proposed for the Galilee Basin west of Rockhampton – can conduct its own review of its groundwater model without independent or government oversight.

There are also no impact levels specified that will trigger a halt to mining, and the company is able to offset any significant water loss elsewhere, the licence shows.

"It's bloody-minded and barbaric," said Bruce Currie, a grazier who lives in the region and has joined legal action against Galilee mines. "This is going to definitely impact on the integrity of [the Great Artesian Basin]."

According to a supplementary environmental impact statement, the mine will draw 26 million litres of water a day from its pits by 2029 as it ramps out annual production to as much as "In granting this licence, the Department of Natural Resources and Mines has carefully considered a broad range of information," a spokesperson said, adding modelling shows that as much as 4.55 gigalitres of groundwater could be taken per year.
"Adani will also need to establish make-good agreements with groundwater users who could potentially be affected by changes to water availability or quality," the spokesperson said. Some 100 conditions are in place to ensure water resources are protected.

The licence, though, would not be subject to the new Water Act Referral Panel set up to ensure "the sustainable management of water in Queensland".

The opening of mining in the Galilee Basin is shaping up to be one of country's big environment battles. Proponents say it will generate exports and bring jobs to a depressed part of the state, and even reduce carbon emissions if it displaces the use of dirty coal in India or elsewhere.

Opponents, though, argue the coal is largely poor quality and the basin will require huge subsidies to become viable. Burning the fuel will also release a "carbon bomb" that will contribute to harming the Great Barrier Reef, which is already being hammered by unprecedented coral bleaching blamed on global warming. 

Fairfax also sought comment from Adani Mining, the local subsidiary of the Indian company.

Limited scrutiny

Unlike other controversial mines, such as the New Acland coal mine planned for the Darling Downs, Adani's water usage is not subject to public submissions and appeals, said Jo Bragg, chief executive of Queensland's Environmental Defenders Office.
Groundwater evidence is often the most controversial feature and public scrutiny is often the most significant aspect of any review, Ms Bragg said. "It's a matter of grave concern that there's not that opportunity."

It was "absolutely anomalous" that the Carmichael mine – which will dwarf New Acland's output of about 7.5 million tonnes a year – should go through with a less vigorous process for its water licence, she said.

Carmel Flint, a campaigner for anti-mining group Lock the Gate, said the open-ended water licence for Adani amounted to a "free kick" to take water from important aquifers such as the Dunda Beds and Clematis Sandstone formations.

Water from the Great Artesian Basin "is just essential for farming communities", Ms Flint said. "Without the water, their businesses are basically finished."

Mr Currie, who runs about 1700 head of cattle "in a good season" over his 25,000-hectare property, said Adani was "the linchpin" to the basin's mines.

If it proceeded, "a lot of the others will go ahead", worsening the groundwater disruption, he said.


http://www.smh.com.au/environment/barba ... vd41y.html
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 10 Apr 2017, 07:17:55

Though China has the bonanza of electric generating capacity coming online from their dozen or more hydroelectric dam projects and is closing down some of their oldest and least efficient coal plants in response India, Turkey and dozens of other countries are building coal capacity right now.

In fact in India the Hydroelectric dam opponents have successfully stalled at least two major projects, so the national power company responded by building more coal to supply the needed electricity.

You can not have it both ways folks, either you support the large scale alternatives, or you support coal.
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby sparky » Tue 11 Apr 2017, 07:50:01

.
Coal is used to make steel ,that use is not likely to disappear soon .
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Tue 11 Apr 2017, 11:50:15

sparky - Here's some stats on coking coal (used for steel making) and not electrical generation. For 2012:

Total global: 930 million st

China: 510 mm st
Australia: 147 mm st
USA: 80 mm st


And from last September: "Coking coal has been the start performing commodity of the year so far. The premium hard coking coal spot price reached $163 /t, FOB Australia in early-September, up 108% since the start of the year and the highest level since February 2013.

The rally has been fuelled by a shortage of Chinese supply, constrained seaborne supply, as well as strong demand, particularly in China and India. A number of players in the industry have suggested that higher price levels are here to stay, while others expect a sharp downward correction if/when Chinese steel production eases and if domestic coal output controls are relaxed."

And how did that prediction turn out? From Jan 2017:

"It's only the 5th of January but the year to date fall in the price of coking coal has already reached 8%. The steelmaking raw material is also a round $100 below its multi-year high of $308.80 per tonne (Australia free-on-board premium hard coking coal tracked by the Steel Index) hit in November.

On Thursday the price dropped another 4.5% to $208.10 a tonne, the lowest since September 29 and one of the biggest declines (for the spot price) on record. In 2011 floods in key export region in Queensland saw the coking coal price briefly trade at an all-time high $335 a tonne."
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby sparky » Tue 11 Apr 2017, 17:33:19

.
due to Cyclone Debbie flooding the Queensland mines the price of coal has spiked ,

http://www.mining.com/coking-coal-price-soars-past-300/
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Tanada » Fri 21 Apr 2017, 13:17:51

Associated Press wrote:By JOHN HANNA,

TOPEKA, Kan. (AP) — Kansas' highest court on Friday cleared a major obstacle to the long-delayed construction of a big, new coal-fired power plant, rejecting an effort by an environment group to force the state to regulate emissions linked to climate change.

The state Supreme Court upheld a 2014 decision by the Kansas Department of Health and Environment to give Sunflower Electric Power Corp. the go-ahead for its project. The utility wants to build an 895-megawatt plant adjacent to an existing one outside Holcomb, in southwestern Kansas and estimates the cost at $2.2 billion.

The Sierra Club sued, partly because the department didn't impose limits on greenhouse gas emissions from the new plant. The group also argued that the agency didn't impose stringent enough standards for other pollutants, including mercury and nitrogen and sulfur dioxide. It suggested that the department was using proper air-pollution models and was rushing its decision.

But in its unanimous ruling , the Supreme Court said the Sierra Club could not show that the agency's action was unreasonable or arbitrary. Justice Marla Luckert wrote for the court that the group "must do more than raise policy arguments."

The company said it was pleased with the decision, though spokeswoman Cindy Hertel called it an "incremental step" and said the utility continues to evaluate its plans. State Attorney General Derek Schmidt also was please. His office defended the department and he supports the project.

Sunflower has been seeking to build a new coal-fired plant outside Holcomb for more than a decade. The project has long had strong support among legislators, particularly those from western Kansas, who have viewed it as economic development.

State House Majority Leader Don Hineman, a Dighton Republican, said while it's too early to tell how quickly the company could move toward building the plant, the Supreme Court decision is good news.

"The economic benefit would accrue to the state," Hineman said.

Sunflower provides electricity to 350,000 central and western Kansas residents through six smaller cooperatives. Its plans for the new plant have called for selling much of the new power in Colorado, long a sore point for many environmentalists.

Sunflower didn't obtain a state air-quality permit until 2010, about 18 months after then-Democratic Gov. Mark Parkinson brokered a deal with the company and the Republican-dominated Legislature that included approval of some green energy initiatives. The permit came just weeks before the federal Environmental Protection Agency issued its first rules on greenhouse gases.

The department argued that because it wasn't issuing a new permit to replace the one issued late in 2010, Sunflower still was not be required to limit greenhouse gas emissions. The Supreme Court agreed.

President Donald Trump, a Republican, has called climate change a hoax, and new EPA chief Scott Pruitt has said he doesn't believe carbon dioxide is a primary contributor to global warming, rejecting mainstream science. Trump's budget proposes to eliminate funding for the effort to restrict power plant emissions.


https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states ... ower-plant
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