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THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: Burning out: Coal prices come back to earth

Unread postby galacticsurfer » Fri 20 Feb 2009, 05:36:34

Go down to page 32 for comparisons of definitions of reserves between USGS and EIA, etc. I think they cover the topic pretty well.

What is significant is the coverage for the Wyoming Powder River Basin. It is like covering Ghawar at TOD a little(names and discusses all individual fields, etc.). I learned that this one field in Wyoming(450 million tons out of 1.1 billion tons total production for USA) is do or die for USA and that we ain't got long till it peaks more than likely.

In the middle of the field were good quality ores near the surface with thick seams. The further you go from the center the deeper you have to dig to get at seams which are much thinner so that costs climb very fast when the cheap stuff is gone-stripping ratio goes up. A normal curve is not useful they say for production as the single depostits have to be looked at individually and perhaps they will be too expensive to be developed like Tupi or Jack 2 or something. Also they show maps of the source of coal for various US regions Midwest takes most coal from Wyoming. Transport of coal is more expensive than the coal itself. Just wait till the transport costs for these mile long diesel freight trains go way up due to PO. Since massive tons of earth have to be removed to get at the coal lots of coal is used to power machinery and diesel for the excavators.

They go through all the calculations of resources and reserves and economical reserves (profitable to obtain) and refer to a 92 Mb download report which is much more detailed which I have not read (http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2008/1202/). At any rate the 200 year reserves dwindles down to about 20 years total and that says nothing about peaking but Peak coal energy amount is already in the past apparently.

http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2008/1202/


ABSTRACT
The Gillette coalfield, within the Powder River Basin in east-central Wyoming, is the most prolific coalfield in the United States. In 2006, production from the coalfield totaled over 431 million short tons of coal, which represented over 37 percent of the Nation’s total yearly production. The Anderson and Canyon coal beds in the Gillette coalfield contain some of the largest deposits of low-sulfur subbituminous coal in the world. By utilizing the abundance of new data from recent coalbed methane development in the Powder River Basin, this study represents the most comprehensive evaluation of coal resources and reserves in the Gillette coalfield to date. Eleven coal beds were evaluated to determine the in-place coal resources. Six of the eleven coal beds were evaluated for reserve potential given current technology, economic factors, and restrictions to mining. These restrictions included the presence of railroads, a Federal interstate highway, cities, a gas plant, and alluvial valley floors. Other restrictions, such as thickness of overburden, thickness of coal beds, and areas of burned coal were also considered.

The total original coal resource in the Gillette coalfield for all eleven coal beds assessed, and no restrictions applied, was calculated to be 201 billion short tons. Available coal resources, which are part of the original coal resource that is accessible for potential mine development after subtracting all restrictions, are about 164 billion short tons (81 percent of the original coal resource).

Recoverable coal, which is the portion of available coal remaining after subtracting mining and processing losses, was determined for a stripping ratio of 10:1 or less. After mining and processing losses were subtracted, a total of 77 billion short tons of coal were calculated (48 percent of the original coal resource).

Coal reserves are the portion of the recoverable coal that can be mined, processed, and marketed at a profit at the time of the economic evaluation. With a discounted cash flow at 8 percent rate of return, the coal reserves estimate for the Gillette coalfield is10.1 billion short tons of coal (6 percent of the original resource total) for the 6 coal beds evaluated.
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Can Clean Coal Actually Work? Time to Find Out.

Unread postby damienian » Mon 23 Feb 2009, 03:17:37

The world’s first “clean coal” power plant fired up in September in the eastern German city of Spremberg. Traditional coal-fired power plants, which produce 36 percent of all carbon dioxide emissions in the United States, are the fastest-growing source of energy—and air pollution—around the world.

Suggestions about the How Does Clean Coal Work are mostly welcomed
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Coal is a fossil fuel

Unread postby damienian » Mon 23 Feb 2009, 03:26:11

­Coal is a fossil fuel composed primarily of carbons and hydrocarbons. Its ingredients help make plastics, tar and fertilizers. A coal derivative, a solidified carbon called coke, melts iron ore and reduces it to create steel. But most coal -- 92 percent of the U.S. supply -- goes into power production [source: Energy Information Administration]. Electric companies and businesses with power plants burn coal to make the steam that turns turbines and generates electricity.

When coal burns, it releases carbon dioxide and other emissions in flue gas, the billowing clouds you see pouring out of smoke stacks. Some clean coal technologies purify the coal before it burns. One type of coal preparation, coal washing, removes unwanted minerals by mixing crushed coal with a liquid and allowing the impurities to separate and settle.

Other systems control the coal burn to minimize emissions of sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxides and particulates. Wet scrubbers, or flue gas desulfurization systems, remove sulfur dioxide, a major cause of acid rain, by spraying flue gas with limestone and water. The mixture reacts with the sulfur dioxide to form synthetic gypsum, a component of drywall.

Suggestions about the How Does Clean Coal Work are mostly welcomed
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Re: Coal is a fossil fuel

Unread postby seldom_seen » Mon 23 Feb 2009, 05:58:12

damienian wrote:­Coal is a fossil fuel

No sh1t?

Don't you think there's a good chance people would know that on this site?
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Re: Burning out: Coal prices come back to earth

Unread postby JustaGirl » Wed 04 Mar 2009, 23:29:22

galacticsurfer, you must have just skimmed that cleanenergy pdf. No where does it say US coal reserves will run out in 20 years. It says that production in existing fields could dwindle in <20 years without expansions. It doesn't even take into account new mines being opened up.

Yes the USGS revised the Gillette field down to 10 b short tons based on a price of $10 per ton. If the price of coal is to go to $14 Gillette's reserves would go up to 18.5 billion.

The oil drum had a very good article last month about coal & the actual transport costs are very very minimal. You should read over it.
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Re: Burning out: Coal prices come back to earth

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 05 Mar 2009, 07:12:01

JustaGirl wrote:galacticsurfer, you must have just skimmed that cleanenergy pdf. No where does it say US coal reserves will run out in 20 years. It says that production in existing fields could dwindle in <20 years without expansions. It doesn't even take into account new mines being opened up.

Yes the USGS revised the Gillette field down to 10 b short tons based on a price of $10 per ton. If the price of coal is to go to $14 Gillette's reserves would go up to 18.5 billion.

The oil drum had a very good article last month about coal & the actual transport costs are very very minimal. You should read over it.


+1

Let me just add that if north central coal is sold for the same prices as east of the mississippi coal at $24-35 a ton the reserves more than quintuple over that $10.00 price. The price is currently so low that it has a great deal of upward room to expand before people look for an alternative, unless of course we get some real carbon taxes enacted.
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Re: Coal is a fossil fuel

Unread postby AlanS2323 » Wed 11 Mar 2009, 16:36:07

Yes, but supposedly there is a thing called "clean coal." I have no idea what this is or if it's an oxymoron.
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Re: Coal is a fossil fuel

Unread postby bencole » Wed 11 Mar 2009, 16:48:48

Coal is a fossil fuel


Absolutely!
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Re: Coal is a fossil fuel

Unread postby bencole » Wed 11 Mar 2009, 16:51:33

AlanS2323 wrote:Yes, but supposedly there is a thing called "clean coal." I have no idea what this is or if it's an oxymoron.



No such thing, an oxymoron, and mostly a politically correct term. Only used by politicians and industry representitives.
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Re: Coal is a fossil fuel

Unread postby Dezakin » Wed 11 Mar 2009, 17:05:58

I look forward to the next post, arsenic is toxic.
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Re: Coal is a fossil fuel

Unread postby pstarr » Wed 11 Mar 2009, 20:30:23

Oil is at $45/barrel.
Peak oil is slow.
Something to talk about.
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Re: Coal is a fossil fuel

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 11 Mar 2009, 23:25:21

Coal is a fossil fuel
So is oil
Without them life
Will be full of toil
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Re: Coal is a fossil fuel

Unread postby pstarr » Wed 11 Mar 2009, 23:30:21

In the best of times, Haikus.
In the worst, Loughkus.
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Re: Coal is a fossil fuel

Unread postby socrates1fan » Fri 27 Mar 2009, 12:33:59

Clean coal sounds like BS to me.
I think it would be WAY better if we used wind and solar.
Besides, why the hell would this country want to support the coal industry?
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Re: Coal is a fossil fuel

Unread postby pstarr » Fri 27 Mar 2009, 13:15:43

socrates1fan wrote:Clean coal sounds like BS to me.
I think it would be WAY better if we used wind and solar.
Besides, why the hell would this country want to support the coal industry?
Check out the TV ad. It runs on Comedy Central during Colbert and Stewart

Link

And the Coen's Brothers produced it. :o
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Scientists invent cheap way to make gasoline from coal

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 28 Mar 2009, 10:06:07

Gasoline has been made from coal for years.......but this new technique is much cheaper.

cheap gas from coal

Look like reports of the death of the internal combustion engine are greatly exaggerated............

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Re: Scientists invent cheap way to make gasoline from coal

Unread postby pstarr » Sat 28 Mar 2009, 11:24:57

Plant, there have been dozens of threads on this subject already. There is nothing new or of consequence in this linked article or your presentation (other than a reference to a respected journal Science--which in itself, in the absence of a content, is nothing more than a pathetic Appeal to Authority) that suggests new information, data, methods, chemistry, etc.

So why you have drawn attention to it and yourself? Perhaps because you are a lazy, disruptive, grandstanding, egomaniacial troll? Why don't you take this little dirty nugget of cornucopian nonsense and return it to the ground to die in peace :twisted:
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Re: Scientists invent cheap way to make gasoline from coal

Unread postby bencole » Sat 28 Mar 2009, 11:34:27

A very poorly written article IMO, very thin on details and almost jumps to a conclusion that the technology can be scaled up. They don't even provide a cost comparison per barrel fo oil for this
process to alternatives. They do admit that it takes the entire SA industrial effort for CTL to provide only enough fuel per day to power one US state, which should be a point of concern for any reader,
also they mentioned the historical note that the Fisher-Tropsch process could not come close to sustaining the German war effort, and essentially their offensives collapsed from lack of fuel. For being such a simple process, and having so little usage, one has to conclude that there is some serious technical issues holding back CTL.
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Re: Scientists invent cheap way to make gasoline from coal

Unread postby vision-master » Sat 28 Mar 2009, 11:36:09

Hydrogen fuel cells is the answer.
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Re: Scientists invent cheap way to make gasoline from coal

Unread postby pstarr » Sat 28 Mar 2009, 12:01:40

Oh darn! This is a forum for 'moderates only.' I am so sorry that I despoiled this place of reason and objectivity with my nay-saying :cry: Is there any way I can take back my extremist viewpoint. I am a moderate and not so quick on the draw and I don't know how to change things. Can somebody help me please?
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