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THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: UK coal mine reopens after 10 years!

Unread postby Twilight » Fri 03 Aug 2007, 15:20:55

It's nice and all, but after three centuries of being swiss-cheesed, then filling in the shafts and letting the rest flood, I don't think there's going to be much production to restart. By the time anyone is really interested, the last of the skill base will have disappeared and the engineering challenge will be akin to starting the whole thing from scratch. And things would have to get bad pretty fast for us to see anything like the company towns of old, anyone still left in the game can probably pull in more money doing agency work overseas if there's nothing in their life stopping them.
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Re: UK coal mine reopens after 10 years!

Unread postby Grifter » Fri 03 Aug 2007, 18:44:16

No

We will burn our coal, regardless of the damage done to the mines.

Its sort of ironic that the conditions caused by thatcher now cause our coal industry to be inefficient. It will make our production limited where other countries can produce from well maintained mines.

Long term it gives us energy and we're going to need it. Sort of anti economics for an energy poor world.
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Re: UK coal mine reopens after 10 years!

Unread postby Twilight » Fri 03 Aug 2007, 20:27:46

Yes and no: we will burn what we can, but you have to understand that it won't be much by past standards - the returns are going to be crap and a lot of mines (deep especially) will never be viable again because the states in which they were abandoned will have rendered them not structurally sound. People will take a look, and where the assessments say it's a flooded cave-in packed with scrap metal, it's going to stay that way.

Ripping out a hillside though, now that could be a niche growth industry once people get through a couple of winters with intermittent heat and light.
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Newcastle Coal Drops Below $100 a Ton, 1st Time in 9 Months

Unread postby copious.abundance » Sun 26 Oct 2008, 22:49:42

Had been wondering about coal prices lately, 'till I just stumbled across this on Bloomberg.

--> LINK <--
Newcastle Coal Drops Below $100 a Ton, First Time in 9 Months
By Jesse Riseborough

Oct. 27 (Bloomberg) -- Power-station coal prices at Australia's Newcastle port, a benchmark for Asia, fell below $100 a ton for the first time in nine months as a slump in oil prices and freight rates curbs demand for the fuel.

The weekly index for power-station coal prices at the New South Wales port dropped $8.70, or 8.3 percent, to $96 a metric ton in the week ended Oct. 24, according to the globalCOAL NEWC Index. The index last fell below $100 a ton in the week ended Jan. 25 at $93.35 a ton.

Crude oil prices declined for a fourth week last week, diving 11 percent, as the financial market crisis spreads, job cuts increase and fuel consumption slows. The Baltic Dry Index, a measure of shipping costs for commodities, fell for a 15th consecutive trading session in London on Oct. 24, indicating a slump in demand.

Newcastle coal traded below the $125 a ton contract price for a fourth week and is 51 percent off a record $194.79 set for the week ended July 4. The monthly index fell 10 percent to $144.82 a ton in September from $160.90 the previous month.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

However, according to the EIA, US coal spot prices seem to be holding their own.

Maybe everyone likes our coal better than Aussie coal? :)
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
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Re: Newcastle Coal Drops Below $100 a Ton, 1st Time in 9 Mon

Unread postby copious.abundance » Sun 26 Oct 2008, 22:53:53

In the UK they've gone down too.

--> LINK <--
UK Coal profits hit by price slump
Oct 16, 2008

UK Coal warned a recent slump in coal prices and production problems would leave profits "significantly below" expectations this year.

Shares in the company, which operates four deep pits and is Britain's biggest producer of coal, slumped by almost half.

Coal prices have recently tumbled from more than 190 US dollars (£109) a tonne at the end of August to 129 dollars (£74) in mid-October.

[...]

Looks like we've got better coal than the Brits, too! :)
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http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
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Re: Newcastle Coal Drops Below $100 a Ton, 1st Time in 9 Mon

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 27 Oct 2008, 03:48:42

OilFinder2 wrote:Had been wondering about coal prices lately, 'till I just stumbled across this on Bloomberg.

However, according to the EIA, US coal spot prices seem to be holding their own.

Maybe everyone likes our coal better than Aussie coal? :)


Considering the price differential between US coal and world market prices I would say the main driver is shipping costs for US coal on the export market.

What I mean is, Australia to China is a short trip compared to Pennsylvania to China. By the same token Europe has plenty of local subsidized coal they can use without importing from anywhere else.
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby emailking » Sat 27 Dec 2008, 16:10:17

I do hope we can realize clean coal. It would help to alleviate peak oil while not damaging the environment.
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Re: Coal for home heating: on the comeback

Unread postby xironman » Sun 28 Dec 2008, 16:38:21

mos6507 wrote: I started trying to heat this house with wood so that I would use less oil but when I realized how ineffective it was, I stopped. I really think most of the fireplaces in the NE are little more than ornamental.

I recently replaced the fireplace with a 77% efficient insert, it is pretty amazing. It is not a cheap investment, especially doing the stainless liner. But I have plenty of wood and it is chump change compared to the PV. I needed one last item, heat, to complete the doomstead.
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Re: Clean Coal Power

Unread postby The_Virginian » Thu 08 Jan 2009, 00:24:13

This is COLD winter, got COAL??? :)
[urlhttp://www.youtube.com/watchv=Ai4te4daLZs&feature=related[/url] "My soul longs for the candle and the spices. If only you would pour me a cup of wine for Havdalah...My heart yearning, I shall lift up my eyes to g-d, who provides for my needs day and night."
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Re: Clean Coal Power

Unread postby Vogelzang » Wed 14 Jan 2009, 20:46:23

Great news, steam cannon. No peak oil for another 500 years at least.

Coal Lies From A Progressive Fable Factory
http://www.mightyrighty.com/forum/showt ... hp?t=15422

Global warming is a commie scam that has been debunked by numerous real scientists.
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Re: Clean Coal Power

Unread postby spiritof1976 » Thu 15 Jan 2009, 05:56:42

Vogelzang wrote:
Global warming is a commie scam that has been debunked by numerous real scientists.


Shame none of the "real scientists" are climatologists, eh?
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Re: Clean Coal Power

Unread postby BenGoble » Thu 15 Jan 2009, 12:26:08

Vogelzang wrote:
Global warming is a commie scam that has been debunked by numerous real scientists.


Lol... You been Listening to George Bushes Environmental Reasearch team??? set up by an oil rich moron, with Dick Cheney in office too, I was so surprised when they claimed that global warming is non sense... lol

I too was impressed with the statement... "no need to dig up the coal!" how conveniant. :lol:
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clean burning coal

Unread postby duffyeric » Fri 13 Feb 2009, 02:11:57

In fact, coal may become an important source of hydrogen. Hydrogen is the crucial element in the fuel cells that are now beginning to be used in transportation. These fuel cells will also be a part of all types of power for years to come. They work like a battery, but they do not run down or need recharging. In addition these cells have far lower emissions than any combustion process.

Why is coal in high demand? Current supplies of coal could last the world at least two or three centuries, making it the most abundant energy source. Coal is found all over the world, and of all energy sources, coal is one of the most economical. Human beings have used coal as an energy source throughout their existence.

But unfortunately, if something seems too good to be true, it usually is. So what are coal's major drawbacks?

The only real drawback with coal is its environmental impact. Thankfully, research and new technology are making coal significantly cleaner and better for the environment.

Sulfur dioxide emission rates for U.S. coal-based power plants were cut by more than 75 percent between 1970 and 2000. In addition, nitrous oxide emission rates were cut in half. Mercury emissions from power generation have now been controlled. And soon the emission of greenhouse gases due to coal will be drastically lowered.

Suggestions about the clean burning coal are mostly welcomed
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Burning out: Coal prices come back to earth

Unread postby copious.abundance » Wed 18 Feb 2009, 21:58:52

Been a while since I paid attention to what was happening to coal. Looks like prices have tumbled just like everything else.

>>> LINK <<<
Burning out: Coal prices come back to earth
Wednesday, February 18, 2009
By Elwin Green, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

After a year in which some coal producers, including Consol Energy, enjoyed record profits, coal companies are hunkering down for what could be a long dry spell by lowering their production targets, shuttering mines and laying off workers.

Next month, Consol will place its Mine 84 in Washington on "long term idle" status, affecting some 275 employees. The company also has reduced the work schedule at its Buchanan mine in northern West Virginia to two daily shifts rather than three and has set a 2009 production target of 3.1 million tons for the mine, about three-fourths of its capacity of 4 million to 4.2 million tons.

"We're basically throttling back," said company Vice President Thomas Hoffman.

The reductions place Consol in the company of other big U.S. producers in using cutbacks to shore up the bottom line. St. Louis-based Arch Coal Inc. and Foundation Coal Holdings, headquartered in Linthicum Heights, Md., also announced such cutbacks at the end of last month. Other major producers such as Peabody Energy and Patriot Coal, both in St. Louis; Abingdon, Va.-based Alpha Natural Resources; and Tulsa, Okla.-based Alliance Resource Partners have begun to retrench as well, trimming more than 1,300 jobs at various Appalachian mines.

The pullbacks result from a dramatic reversal of fortune in the industry. After surging in 2007 and most of 2008, both the demand and the pricing for coal collapsed in 2008's final quarter.


[...]
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
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Re: Burning out: Coal prices come back to earth

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 19 Feb 2009, 07:31:04

With 53% of the USA grid being coal powered and that portion consuming about 75% of mined coal there is a finite limit to how far prices can fall before closures lead to shortages. Coal remains the cheapest way to produce electricity in the USA due to regulatory impacts being lightest on coal.
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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Re: Burning out: Coal prices come back to earth

Unread postby aahala2 » Thu 19 Feb 2009, 10:58:34

Tanada wrote:With 53% of the USA grid being coal powered and that portion consuming about 75% of mined coal there is a finite limit to how far prices can fall before closures lead to shortages. Coal remains the cheapest way to produce electricity in the USA due to regulatory impacts being lightest on coal.


May I ask where the 53% figure comes from? Net electrical production on the eia.doe.gov monthly eletrical report has not shown coal equalling even
50% since about 2005.
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Re: Burning out: Coal prices come back to earth

Unread postby copious.abundance » Thu 19 Feb 2009, 13:46:11

That 53% sounds about right.

However I would guess that much of the mine shutdown would be due to declining exports. From 2007-2008 US coal exports increased from 42 to 59 million short tons (source) so I would think the slowing world economy means less coal demand and fewer US exports.
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
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Re: Burning out: Coal prices come back to earth

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Thu 19 Feb 2009, 14:07:51

http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_energy/coalvswind/c01.html Union of Concerned Scientists - 54% coal
http://www.teachcoal.org/aboutcoal/articles/coalconvert.html American Coal Foundation - >50% coal
http://www.financialsense.com/fsu/editorials/ti/2009/0206.html Financial Sense - 49% coal.

53%, plus or minus 3%, is probably a good estimate.
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Re: Burning out: Coal prices come back to earth

Unread postby galacticsurfer » Thu 19 Feb 2009, 15:59:52

I read this 83 page report on state of coal reserves in USA. 20 years left then its "goodbye coal powered electricity". That is what they say but what they don't calculate is that PO will make it more expensive to mine coal. They calculate that coal will get more expensive and that will cause coal mining to become expensive as they use coal powered electricity for a lot of production in Wyoming, etc. So the noose will get tighter just like in th oil patch and at very similar time scale. There should be mutual feedback loops between the dwindling electrical network and the dwindling transport network which will be a self reinforcing dwonward spiral. This will be good for th environment as less coal and oil and gas will get pumped or mined or used.

http://www.cleanenergyaction.org/docume ... 021209.pdf
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Re: Burning out: Coal prices come back to earth

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Thu 19 Feb 2009, 16:52:12

galacticsurfer wrote:I read this 83 page report on state of coal reserves in USA. 20 years left then its "goodbye coal powered electricity". That is what they say but what they don't calculate is that PO will make it more expensive to mine coal. They calculate that coal will get more expensive and that will cause coal mining to become expensive as they use coal powered electricity for a lot of production in Wyoming, etc. So the noose will get tighter just like in th oil patch and at very similar time scale. There should be mutual feedback loops between the dwindling electrical network and the dwindling transport network which will be a self reinforcing dwonward spiral. This will be good for th environment as less coal and oil and gas will get pumped or mined or used.

http://www.cleanenergyaction.org/docume ... 021209.pdf


Did you look at your source?

Clean Energy Action will have a different opinion about coal reserves than the American Coal Council which will have a different opinion than the EIA.
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