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The Climate Wars to come

Re: The Climate Wars to come

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 25 Jun 2016, 11:00:49

Just reading Troioc of Chaos now. It seems a bit disorganized but seems pretty good so far. Early yet.
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Re: The Climate Wars to come

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 25 Jun 2016, 11:48:20

Lore wrote:Well, immigrating to New Zeeland is out for most people on this forum as a basic requirement is that you be under the age of 56.

You can get a temporary retirement visa if you're over the age of 66, but you must invest around $600,000 in the country and have a yearly income of at least $48,000.

I'm surprised those numbers are so for those over 66. I would think as long as they don't draw any government relief or take anybodies job they would be a net plus to the economy just from whatever income they bring with them. After all each one is only going to be around about ten years and you could have a steady turnover of them from the beach to the golf course to the crematory. Not exactly a high crime set either.
Perhaps the government has to stiff them that much to cover the cost of "free health care" to the other residents?
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Re: The Climate Wars to come

Unread postby M_B_S » Tue 27 Sep 2016, 04:52:51

Syria a paradigmatic example?!

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/09/05/ins ... urity-war/

“After the first year without rain, we started to see people struggle a lot. After the second, there was desperation,” an ICARDA plant breeder said, speaking on the condition of anonymity as he sometimes still works in Syria. “And after the fourth, it wasn’t really a surprise to see them rise up.”

q.e.d.
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Re: The Climate Wars to come

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Tue 27 Sep 2016, 06:55:32

"For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst and provide for it." - Patrick Henry

The level of injustice and wrong you endure is directly determined by how much you quietly submit to. Even to the point of extinction.
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Re: The Climate Wars to come

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 25 Mar 2017, 10:26:11

https://www.desmogblog.com/2017/03/23/h ... refighters
Maybe the OP means these climate wars
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Re: The Climate Wars to come

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 15 Dec 2018, 17:36:09

So now the Democrats are unveiling the Green New Deal

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/arc ... vtmwM-tn7Y

They talk a good talk and that is about it
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Re: The Climate Wars to come

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 15 Dec 2018, 22:21:47

onlooker wrote:So now the Democrats are unveiling the Green New Deal

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/arc ... vtmwM-tn7Y

They talk a good talk and that is about it


"The Green New Deal..... it’s an ambitious package of laws that will touch every sector of the economy.....requiring the U.S. to get 100 percent of its electricity from renewable sources ....“decarbonizing, repairing and improving transportation and other infrastructure.” ......massive investment in technology that could directly remove carbon dioxide from the atmosphere."


Sounds pretty good, but the devil is in the details.

Renewable electricity is currently ca. 15% of all electricity. No reason that couldn't go much higher, especially if the Ds fight with the environmentalists and force them to relax their opposition to building huge offshore wind power fields off both coasts and allow massive solar energy farms across huge areas of the western deserts.

Decarbonizing transportation is more difficult, but if the Ds want to buy me an EV LandCruiser that will work at -50° in the Alaskan snow, I'll happily accept it. I think it would be smarter to build high speed rail and trams and mass transit down in the lower 48, but the Ds seem stuck on the idea that everybody should have their own personal very expensive EV and if they subsidize it enough, I'll get one.

Finally, sucking carbon out of the atmosphere and storing it is inevitably going to be very expensive, since CO2 and CH4 are TRACE gases present at very very low levels. If the Ds want to fund BIG SCIENCE to figure out a way to get it out of the atmosphere, I'd support that.

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Re: The Climate Wars to come

Unread postby jawagord » Sun 16 Dec 2018, 02:50:56

onlooker wrote:So now the Democrats are unveiling the Green New Deal

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/arc ... vtmwM-tn7Y

They talk a good talk and that is about it


Like the Russian 5 year plans in reverse, the de-industrialization of the US! Even the Dems are not this stupid, the Green fringe will always be the green fringe as there's no free lunch when it comes to energy and the economy. Green power costs money, lots of money, you can hide the costs and intermittency problems when it's only a small component of energy production, you can't hide those problems when you go 100% which is why "green deals" will fail.

http://general-history.com/stalins-five-year-plans/
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Re: The Climate Wars to come

Unread postby careinke » Sun 16 Dec 2018, 04:00:44

onlooker wrote:So now the Democrats are unveiling the Green New Deal

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/arc ... vtmwM-tn7Y

They talk a good talk and that is about it


The Dims always talk, but never do. If they don't want to push a carbon tax, how do they plan to pay for this?
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Re: The Climate Wars to come

Unread postby AdTheNad » Sun 16 Dec 2018, 05:47:17

careinke wrote:The Dims always talk, but never do. If they don't want to push a carbon tax, how do they plan to pay for this?

You just pay for it. A sovereign nation that controls its own currency can pay for whatever it wants. There may be some idiot rules set up to prevent it but economically it is literally that simple.

Same way you can find money for QE to bail out the banks without questioning where the money will come from - because it isn’t a real problem. The problem is if the spending generates inflation, which can be managed by increasing taxes. Governments spend then tax, not tax then spend. That’s how money works.
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Re: The Climate Wars to come

Unread postby careinke » Sun 16 Dec 2018, 07:15:14

AdTheNad wrote:
careinke wrote:The Dims always talk, but never do. If they don't want to push a carbon tax, how do they plan to pay for this?

You just pay for it. A sovereign nation that controls its own currency can pay for whatever it wants. There may be some idiot rules set up to prevent it but economically it is literally that simple.

Same way you can find money for QE to bail out the banks without questioning where the money will come from - because it isn’t a real problem. The problem is if the spending generates inflation, which can be managed by increasing taxes. Governments spend then tax, not tax then spend. That’s how money works.


I would accept that if they eliminated the Fed, taxes, Bond sales, and Fractional Reserve Banking. Of course you would have to phase it in over time, but I believe it could be done.

I have actually given this some thought on how I would do this, Here would be my initial stab at this, from a US nationalist anarcho-capitalist perspective.

1. The US develops its own Third Generation Blockchain Crypto Currency and initially ties it to the dollar value wise. (To avoid confusion lets call it USX).

2. All Payments made by the Federal Government will be made using USX. Social Security, Government Pensions, Government Payrolls, Contract work, etc. etc.

3. All payments due the government can be made in either US dollars or USX. If the payment is made in dollars the government effectively "burns" them by pulling them out of circulation.

4. The government continues to honor it's current outstanding bonds (with payment made via USX). At the same time the US ceases to issue any new bonds.

5. The government issues all US citizens "Special Wallets" where various "coins" such as voting ballots can be airdropped to eliminate voter fraud etc. Of course the citizen, (or anybody else for that matter) can make their own walletts to transfer their funds to if they wish.

6. The federal reserve is eliminated and fractional reserve banking is outlawed in the US.

What do you say? Do we have a deal?
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Re: The Climate Wars to come

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 16 Dec 2018, 09:16:18

We have discovered here in California that reaching 50% of your power from renewables was fairly easy to achieve, versus 100%. We reached the 50% goal years ahead of schedule, using solar and wind and hydro power. But the remaining 50% of "baseload power" is much harder to achieve, because the sun doesn't shine nor does the wind blow all the time. We already have the renewables generating capacity installed, it is producing at under 50% most of the time. The baseload power is generated by FF's, nuclear energy, and hydropower - but hydropower capacity is constrained by both the geography and droughts.

Energy storage is the key, of course. But Lithium batteries are too expensive and large scale alternatives such as pumped hydropower are already running at capacity.
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Re: The Climate Wars to come

Unread postby AdTheNad » Sun 16 Dec 2018, 11:52:11

careinke wrote:I would accept that if they eliminated the Fed, taxes, Bond sales, and Fractional Reserve Banking. Of course you would have to phase it in over time, but I believe it could be done.

Get rid of the fed sure. Why would you want to get rid of taxes? Is wealth not concentrating into the 0.001% hands quick enough? Taxes are required to remove excess money from circulation and prevent massive inflation.

Why would you want to get rid of bond sales? As well as investing money or spending it people should also have access to a safe place to save money (for retirement etc) and the government should provide the service of borrower of last resort.

I can get rid of fractional reserve banking for you right now. Per the Bank of England, who knows more about money creation then you or me:

Bank of England wrote:One common misconception is that banks act simply as intermediaries, lending out the deposits that savers place with them.

Saving does not by itself increase the deposits or ‘funds available’ for banks to lend. Indeed, viewing banks simply as intermediaries ignores the fact that, in reality in the modern economy, commercial banks are the creators of deposit money. This article explains how, rather than banks lending out deposits that are placed with them, the act of lending creates deposits — the reverse of the sequence typically described in textbooks.


https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/-/media ... E476E01654

Banks don’t lend money from deposits, they create new money. The government can create money. A lack of money is no real constraint on a green new deal.
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Re: The Climate Wars to come

Unread postby onlooker » Sun 16 Dec 2018, 12:21:00


Banks don’t lend money from deposits, they create new money. The government can create money. A lack of money is no real constraint on a green new deal.

No, but what is a constraint is Net Energy. And the diminishing returns of accessing minerals and energy. Money is incapable of addressing these real natural limits. Money ultimately must be backed up by energy and other tangible resources. So, in scaling up this Green New Deal we are trading a more reliable concentrated source of energy for energy sources less concentrated and reliable. And to boot, we are doing it while trying to maintain a complex technological industrialized world economy. Ulimtately, money cannot subsitute for the energy and resources needed to realize a whole new way of living for modern humans.
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