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THE Citgo Oil Company Thread (merged)

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

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Re: Repub politician harassing Citgo for cheap oil deal to p

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Thu 02 Mar 2006, 00:09:30

You know, a great number of economists, business people, lawyers and politicians DO contribute their wealths to charities and non-profit organizations all the times. If you do your research more thoroughly and perhaps get to know some of them in real life, you would be surprised just how wrong you are.


Please read my post and the post I responded to, and you will see what I typed is tongue in cheek than anything, even if it may have some truth to it. Most of all, you need to have an ability to detect sarcasm. I was under the assumption that those here new what "A Modest Proposal" was...

Of course, there are always selfish bad apples in the society but believe it or not, those selfish bad apples could be someone like you.

What have you done so far in your life that you have contributed for the well-being of the society or the community?


For starters, I've helped re-build a burnt down town house so that a homeless family could move in it. But for me to delve into details on this would bring things too far off topic. It would be a good topic to ask in the Open Discussion.
The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the old growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder. ~Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Repub politician harassing Citgo for cheap oil deal to p

Unread postby rogerhb » Thu 02 Mar 2006, 03:25:43

The_Toecutter wrote:I've helped re-build a burnt down town house


I presume you did not burn it down for an insurance scam? :)
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers." - Henry Louis Mencken
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Re: Repub politician harassing Citgo for cheap oil deal to p

Unread postby HonestPessimist » Thu 02 Mar 2006, 22:20:59

The_Toecutter wrote:Please read my post and the post I responded to, and you will see what I typed is tongue in cheek than anything, even if it may have some truth to it.


Sorry, didn't see this emoticon :roll: somewhere there. It must be so tiny to see. Like the size of a period?

The_Toecutter wrote:Most of all, you need to have an ability to detect sarcasm. I was under the assumption that those here new what "A Modest Proposal" was...


I was under the assumption that you were just being mean-spirited. My sarcasm-detector is at the repair shop.

The_Toecutter wrote:For starters, I've helped re-build a burnt down town house so that a homeless family could move in it.


Well, that's good to know. ;)
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Re: Repub politician harassing Citgo for cheap oil deal to p

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Thu 02 Mar 2006, 22:24:48

I was under the assumption that you were just being mean-spirited. My sarcasm-detector is at the repair shop.


Your assumption was also correct to an extent. :twisted:
The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the old growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder. ~Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Repub politician harassing Citgo for cheap oil deal to p

Unread postby Revi » Fri 03 Mar 2006, 10:14:51

Corpsicle wrote:
Zardoz wrote:Right on, Spec.


It is about time we realized people are resources. A lot of the problems we are facing today could be easily solved by restricting the underproductive surplus population's access to scarce resources such as gas and oil.
Let's face it, if Joe Blow working down at the local McDonalds isn't needed anymore, any rational society would accept his demise as a small loss. And in that vein, I'd like to suggest - if I may - a modest proposal...


I live in one of the states that recieves the cheaper oil from Citgo. Our Governor made this deal to keep his people from freezing this winter. Say what you like, but I'm glad that there are people who can heat their houses. I don't see them as unproductive surplus population, I see them as my neighbors. They have already used up any federal money towards heating oil. LIHEAP funds were cut, and they don't go as far as they did last year because of price rises. I think what our Governor did was sensible. We are all trying to get through this.
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Citgo Will Stop Selling Gasoline to 1800 Stations

Unread postby DantesPeak » Wed 12 Jul 2006, 12:29:04

While technically the gasoline Citgo sells to these 1800 stations is purchased from other companies and should not affect overall supply, it is another step in the wrong direction between the continuing conflict betwen Chavez of Venezuela and the US.

At a later date, Venezuela may either sell Citgo outright - if that was to be allowed by the US, which is problematic - or reduce gasoline supplies to the US because of new contracts it has with other countries.

... the Houston-based company has decided to sell to retailers only the 750,000 barrels a day that it produces at three U.S. refineries in Lake Charles, La., Corpus Christi, Texas and Lemont, Ill., according to a statement late Tuesday.

That will mean that over the next year Citgo will cease distributing gasoline in 10 states and stop supplying some stations in four additional states, Citgo spokesman Fernando Garay said Wednesday.

Chavez has long claimed that parts of Citgo's business produce losses for Venezuela and constitute a subsidy for the U.S. economy.

Oil Minister Rafael Ramirez has also charged that Citgo isn't profitable enough and that its parent, state-owned Petroleos de Venezuela SA, or PDVSA, could at some point sell off some of the company's refineries.


Houston Chronicle

In a statement released after the close of business Monday, Citgo CEO Felix Rodriguez said the company's customers had until next March to find other suppliers.

Mr. Rodriguez said the purchase of outside gasoline had the impact of "straining our resources and potentially compromising our ability to provide optimum service to our customers."

Because of their proximity, the U.S. and Venezuela rely on each other in the oil market. Venezuela supplies 14% of the U.S. oil supply, and the U.S. buys half of Venezuela's oil exports. Venezuela has reserves of about 80 billion barrels of conventional oil and as many as 270 billion barrels of extra-heavy oil that must be substantially upgraded before it can be refined.

But the Venezuelan oil company has become highly politicized under the country's president, Hugo Chavez, a vocal critic of the U.S. Because of poor field management and political choices, Venezuela has reduced its oil production since Mr. Chavez took power in 1998 to about 2.6 million barrels a day from a peak of 3.1 million barrels a day.


Wall Street Journal
Last edited by DantesPeak on Wed 12 Jul 2006, 12:45:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Citgo Will Stop Selling Gasoline to 1800 Stations

Unread postby Spideykid » Wed 12 Jul 2006, 12:43:53

<<While technically the gasoline Citgo sells to these 1800 stations is purchased from other companies and should not affect overall supply, it is another step in the wrong direction between the continuing conflict betwen Chavez of Venezuela and the US>>

OMG it's a business move, why buy oil or gas to meet contracts that are not profitable, simply don't do it. They are still going to supply oil and gas but basically from their own oil.
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Re: Citgo Will Stop Selling Gasoline to 1800 Stations

Unread postby DantesPeak » Wed 12 Jul 2006, 12:50:26

It's not clear that Citgo is actually losing money, as claimed. Normally companies in their position would not be losing money as distributors.

In any case, Citgo is a highly valuable asset - maybe worth $10 billion - if it could be sold to a buyer acceptable to the US.
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Re: Citgo Will Stop Selling Gasoline to 1800 Stations

Unread postby Leanan » Wed 12 Jul 2006, 12:54:10

Sounds to me like Venezuela is having production problems. Earlier this year, they were forced to buy petroleum from Russia to fullfil their contracts. Now this.
"The problems of today will not be solved by the same thinking that produced the problems in the first place." - Albert Einstein
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Re: Citgo Will Stop Selling Gasoline to 1800 Stations

Unread postby XOVERX » Wed 12 Jul 2006, 13:51:15

Well, it's either production problems or it's political.

Either way, this Citgo development is not good news for the USA.

Prepare for the sound of more sabre-rattling.
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Re: Citgo Will Stop Selling Gasoline to 1800 Stations

Unread postby DantesPeak » Wed 12 Jul 2006, 14:00:37

Leanan wrote:Sounds to me like Venezuela is having production problems. Earlier this year, they were forced to buy petroleum from Russia to fullfil their contracts. Now this.


Other reports state that this does relate to the production they are buying from Russia.

If you keep in mind that Citgo is a seperate compnay with contracts with Venezuela, technically this will not affect US operations or profits greatly. However it does affect Venezuela by relieving them of buying the Russian oil to make up lost production thay had planned to sell to Citgo.

I suppose somehow, US refiners will want that Russian oil to continue coming to the US, but I do not know now if it will or won't. I would tend to think not all of it will.
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Re: Citgo Will Stop Selling Gasoline to 1800 Stations

Unread postby DantesPeak » Wed 12 Jul 2006, 18:06:13

Venezuela's Oil Sales to U.S. Drop as Chavez Sends More to Asia

July 12 (Bloomberg) -- Venezuelan oil shipments to the U.S. fell 6 percent in the first four months of the year as President Hugo Chavez followed through on his plan to find new markets for his crude, according to data from the U.S. Energy Department.

State-run Petroleos de Venezuela SA has been sending more tankers of oil and fuel to India and China, markets that are up to seven times more distant than the U.S. customers that traditionally take most of the country's exports. Venezuela was the third-biggest OPEC producer last month, with output of about 2.6 million barrels.

``Two things are clear,'' said Roger Tissot, an oil analyst with PFC Energy, a consulting firm in Washington. ``Venezuela wants to reduce its dependence on the U.S., and it wants to position itself in the world's fastest growing markets, such as India and China.''

Venezuela is particularly targeting Asia. Petroleos de Venezuela signed a long-term sales agreement with India in April for 2 million barrels a month. The company is also in talks with Reliance Industries Ltd., India's largest non-state oil refiner, for additional shipments.

Sales to China have steadily risen. They totaled 14,000 barrels a day in 2004, and 80,000 barrels a day last year.

``By the end of this year, we should be sending 300,000 barrels a day of oil to China,'' Chavez said. China, which exported crude oil as recently as the early 1990s, has become the world's third-largest oil importer.


Bloomberg
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Re: Citgo Will Stop Selling Gasoline to 1800 Stations

Unread postby seahorse » Wed 12 Jul 2006, 20:10:03

How is the US making up for the drop of imports from Venezuela? Is this why inventories have dropped recently? Citgo is also announcing the closing of 1500 US service stations to reduce, I guess further, the amount of fuel it imports to the US. Can the US make up for all this?
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Re: Citgo Will Stop Selling Gasoline to 1800 Stations

Unread postby pedalling_faster » Wed 12 Jul 2006, 20:24:18

not sure how to take this.

no big deal, or ...

"we're cutting off your food (oil) supply, but, don't panic, everything's going to be all right" - a genuine reduction in fossil fuel supply, a real live manifestation of the production declines associated with early Peak Oil, with a little sugar-coating added.
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Re: Citgo Will Stop Selling Gasoline to 1800 Stations

Unread postby DantesPeak » Wed 12 Jul 2006, 20:35:09

Citgo is profitable and the dividend payments roughly confirm it worth somewhere about $10 billlion:

BNamericas.com
Copyright 2006 BNamericas.com
July 12, 2006

IN BRIEF: Citgo to pay US$280mn in dividends

US refining and fuels company Citgo will pay US$280mn in dividends to its parent company, Venezuela's state oil firm PDVSA, bringing total dividend payments this year to US$400mn, the latter said in a statement.

"This dividend payment reflects the company's solid results and the continued ties between Citgo and PDVSA," Citgo chairman Alejandro Granado said. "Citgo is positioned for another year of excellent results due to its focus on its core business and strategy."


Canada has replaced some of the missing Venezuela oil, but not much. Apparently even Citgo is seeking Canadian oil.

Houston, we have a problem.

Oil Daily
COPYRIGHT 2006 Energy Intelligence Group
June 19, 2006

Volume 56; Issue 117

Canadian crudes displace Latin blends in shift in US spot market.
Orwel, George

Following the reversal of two crude oil pipelines to the US Midcontinent region, Canadian heavy crudes are moving to displace sour crudes from Latin America in the US Gulf Coast spot market.

The volume of Canadian crude reaching the Gulf Coast is still small at 60,000 barrels per day, but it represents a significant development in the US spot crude market, especially since Latin American crude is becoming more difficult to obtain on the spot market (OD Mar. 6, p6).

Some Gulf Coast refiners are simply looking to diversify their supply sources, but there are also concerns about the new wave of nationalism sweeping across Latin America's political spectrum, with Hugo Chavez entrenched in Venezuela, Evo Morales in Bolivia, and Alfredo Palacio in Ecuador, where US Occidental was kicked out last month (OD May 17, p1).

Lyondell-Citgo's refinery at Houston, one of the largest in the US and designed to process heavy, high sulfur crude oil, is now also reportedly taking some Canadian crude. The facility covers nearly 700 acres along the Houston Ship Channel and has a capacity of 268,000 b/d. The refinery, which was recently put up for sale, is owned by a joint venture of Lyondell Chemical and Citgo Petroleum, the US refining unit of Venezuelan state oil firm Petroleos de Venezuela (PDV).
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A token of

Unread postby pana_burda » Sat 22 Dec 2007, 04:56:22

.......... yet CITGO´s the fall guy
UPDATE 3-Citgo takes $1 bln loan for PDVSA debt; Fitch cuts
CARACAS/NEW YORK, Dec 19 (Reuters) - Citgo, a U.S. unit of Venezuelan state oil company PDVSA, has negotiated a $1 billion loan to repay debt held by an oil project that Venezuela recently wrested from Exxon Mobil, officials said on Wednesday.
The added burden of the loan on Citgo's books prompted Fitch Ratings on Wednesday to downgrade Citgo's credit rating a notch further into junk bond territory, lowering it to "BB-."
Venezuelan Energy Minister Rafael Ramirez told a newspaper that PDVSA plans to use the proceeds of the loan to buy back $630 million of bonds 156877AB8=156877AB8=RRPS issued for the Cerro Negro project, until recently majority owned by Exxon Mobil (XOM.N). A PDVSA press officer confirmed the story. …

Reuters

By the way, how do you spell "bankrupsy" (PDVSA´s) in revolutionary terms, uhh?
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Citgo cuts hundreds of Louisiana contractors

Unread postby KevO » Thu 17 Jan 2008, 15:33:58

HOUSTON, Jan 17 (Reuters) - Citgo Petroleum Corp cut more than 500 contract maintenance workers in late December at its Louisiana refinery as part of a program to increase returns to corporate parent Venezuelan state oil company PDVSA, according to sources familiar with the company's refinery operations.

Between 500 and 700 contractors were let go at the 430,000-barrel-per-day (bpd) Lake Charles plant, which the U.S. government lists as the nation's third largest, the sources said. A Citgo spokesman declined to discuss operations at the Lake Charles refinery.


more at
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Re: Citgo cuts hundreds of Louisiana contractors

Unread postby seahorse » Thu 17 Jan 2008, 16:22:39

Many years ago here at PO we brainstormed all the options of Chavez, basically, closing his refineries in the US was one of them, effectively collapsing the US. Simmons said as much also at the time. Even not maintaining his refineries leads to the same result, just slower torture. I need to find the old thread. It would be interesting to take a second look at it.
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Re: Citgo cuts hundreds of Louisiana contractors

Unread postby KevO » Thu 17 Jan 2008, 18:42:56

seahorse wrote:Many years ago here at PO we brainstormed all the options of Chavez, basically, closing his refineries in the US was one of them, effectively collapsing the US. Simmons said as much also at the time. Even not maintaining his refineries leads to the same result, just slower torture. I need to find the old thread. It would be interesting to take a second look at it.


please find it!
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Re: Citgo cuts hundreds of Louisiana contractors

Unread postby seahorse » Thu 17 Jan 2008, 21:19:05

Kevo,

Here's a link to a PO thread talking about the same thing.

PO Topic

You'll notice in this discussion I quoted myself from another discussion, which I can't find, but will keep looking.
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