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THE Carbon Dioxide (CO2) Thread Pt. 6

Re: THE Carbon Dioxide (CO2) Thread Pt. 6

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 03 Apr 2017, 10:34:02

April 02: 408.07 ppm
April 01: 408.48 ppm
March 31: 409.08 ppm
March 30: 408.86 ppm
March 29: 409.28 ppm
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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Re: THE Carbon Dioxide (CO2) Thread Pt. 6

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Mon 03 Apr 2017, 16:18:27

Those are some scary numbers. Seems only yesterday we were looking at 400.
"For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst and provide for it." - Patrick Henry

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Re: THE Carbon Dioxide (CO2) Thread Pt. 6

Unread postby Squilliam » Mon 03 Apr 2017, 17:09:06

On the bright side the numbers are getting smaller ;-)
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Re: THE Carbon Dioxide (CO2) Thread Pt. 6

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Mon 03 Apr 2017, 17:33:43

This gives a little info on the accuracy of typical CO2 measurements.
https://www.skepticalscience.com/co2-measurements-uncertainty.htm
http://www.atmos-meas-tech.net/3/375/2010/amt-3-375-2010.pdf
https://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/about/co2_measurements.html

Looks to me that it would not be difficult to have errors of plus/minus .2 ppm, depending on water vapor correction methods and the type of device used to make the measurements.
Many years ago I worked on lab analytical instruments, and know for a fact that they are constantly being re-calibrated because of errors popping up for one cause or another.
Consistency and repeatability of measurements should be one of the most important things to look for, but actual accuracy to the hundredth of a ppm would be surprising to me.
Even the station at Mauna Loa claims only an accuracy to .2 ppm.
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Re: THE Carbon Dioxide (CO2) Thread Pt. 6

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 05 Apr 2017, 01:46:17

The actual wording says "...better than .2ppm."
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Re: THE Carbon Dioxide (CO2) Thread Pt. 6

Unread postby dissident » Wed 05 Apr 2017, 08:18:05

If the Hawaiian data is published with two decimal places then the accuracy must be 0.01 ppmv and not 0.2 ppmv. No proper data reporting would add an extra digit. Also, 0.2 ppmv accuracy is for crappy instruments. Trace gases are measured down to fractions of a pptv and 0.2 ppmv is 200000 pptv. I am sure they have better equipment at Mauna Loa.
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Re: THE Carbon Dioxide (CO2) Thread Pt. 6

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 05 Apr 2017, 08:26:20

April 04: 408.07 ppm
April 03: 407.82 ppm
April 02: 408.07 ppm
April 01: 408.48 ppm
March 31: 409.08 ppm
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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Re: THE Carbon Dioxide (CO2) Thread Pt. 6

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Wed 05 Apr 2017, 16:30:48

dohboi wrote:The actual wording says "...better than .2ppm."

I believe it says - "generally better than .2 ppm."
Which is what someone "generally" says when that is their running average for accuracy.

They also go on to say that they split the sample stream and send it to another lab in Colorado, and they are typically within .11 of the same measurement on the same stream.

They really should drop the last digit. It makes people think that every hundredth of a ppm is important, and then they waste time talking about hundredths like now.
Rounding to the next significant digit would probably be better science, considering what they publish for their typical accuracy.
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Re: THE Carbon Dioxide (CO2) Thread Pt. 6

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Wed 05 Apr 2017, 16:33:27

dissident wrote:If the Hawaiian data is published with two decimal places then the accuracy must be 0.01 ppmv and not 0.2 ppmv. No proper data reporting would add an extra digit. Also, 0.2 ppmv accuracy is for crappy instruments. Trace gases are measured down to fractions of a pptv and 0.2 ppmv is 200000 pptv. I am sure they have better equipment at Mauna Loa.


Read the link. They list their own accuracy standards.
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Re: THE Carbon Dioxide (CO2) Thread Pt. 6

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 05 Apr 2017, 21:30:32


March 2017: 407.18 ppm
March 2016: 404.83 ppm
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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Re: THE Carbon Dioxide (CO2) Thread Pt. 6

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 05 Apr 2017, 21:46:41

Can we agree that the hundredth of a part per million is not enormously important.

But let's not police T about what he can and can't report. Keep giving the full number. I don't think anyone here has ever made too big of a deal about whether the the last digit was 3/100ths of a part per million or 6/100ths of a part per million. Or did I miss something??
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Re: THE Carbon Dioxide (CO2) Thread Pt. 6

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 05 Apr 2017, 22:01:01

I will make it real simple folks, I post the numbers NOAA or Scripts puts out on their website, no more no less. You don't like the numbers take it up with the source, not the messenger.
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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Re: THE Carbon Dioxide (CO2) Thread Pt. 6

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Thu 06 Apr 2017, 09:43:54

dohboi wrote:Can we agree that the hundredth of a part per million is not enormously important.

But let's not police T about what he can and can't report. Keep giving the full number. I don't think anyone here has ever made too big of a deal about whether the the last digit was 3/100ths of a part per million or 6/100ths of a part per million. Or did I miss something??

I totally agree that the last digit is not important. That is what I was saying. And no one was trying to police anyone. I don't care what numbers anyone puts up. I was just stating the facts, cause I believe in free speech. :-D
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Re: THE Carbon Dioxide (CO2) Thread Pt. 6

Unread postby Tanada » Fri 07 Apr 2017, 09:56:13

Hawkcreek wrote:
dohboi wrote:Can we agree that the hundredth of a part per million is not enormously important.

But let's not police T about what he can and can't report. Keep giving the full number. I don't think anyone here has ever made too big of a deal about whether the the last digit was 3/100ths of a part per million or 6/100ths of a part per million. Or did I miss something??

I totally agree that the last digit is not important. That is what I was saying. And no one was trying to police anyone. I don't care what numbers anyone puts up. I was just stating the facts, cause I believe in free speech. :-D


Certainly on a daily and weekly basis it is academic, only useful for categorizing which day or week in particular was highest or lowest for the week or month. I used to post the entire daily record for each month and then point out the highest and lowest daily and weekly values for the year based upon those numbers. In year over year terms the precise day or week is of little importance unless that day starts shifting around the calendar, like the peak falling earlier in the year because of earlier greening in Spring. Someone may still be doing that, after five years which is too short a period to determine anything I got tired of spending so much time doing it, mostly because I never saw such a pattern showing up even though when tracking Arctic Sea Ice changes were obvious.
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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Re: THE Carbon Dioxide (CO2) Thread Pt. 6

Unread postby dohboi » Fri 07 Apr 2017, 21:54:53

Thanks for all you work keeping us posted on arguably the most important numbers... not just in 'history' but in the last half billion years or so, T.

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Re: THE Carbon Dioxide (CO2) Thread Pt. 6

Unread postby Squilliam » Sat 08 Apr 2017, 02:26:16

Don't let the bastards grind you down (translation)
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Re: THE Carbon Dioxide (CO2) Thread Pt. 6

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sat 08 Apr 2017, 07:48:06

T - Nothing wrong with posting numbers. But as is the case of studying most dynamic situations charting the numbers tend to give a much clearer picture of the TREND. And it has been the trend of atmospheric CO2 concentration that's been more alarming then the absolute numbers IMHO.

And the nice aspect of charting values from 0 to say 600: that vertical axis won't be scaled to the 1/100 of a ppm. Probably not even in 10 ppm units. LOL.
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Re: THE Carbon Dioxide (CO2) Thread Pt. 6

Unread postby dissident » Sat 08 Apr 2017, 08:20:03

ROCKMAN wrote:T - Nothing wrong with posting numbers. But as is the case of studying most dynamic situations charting the numbers tend to give a much clearer picture of the TREND. And it has been the trend of atmospheric CO2 concentration that's been more alarming then the absolute numbers IMHO.

And the nice aspect of charting values from 0 to say 600: that vertical axis won't be scaled to the 1/100 of a ppm. Probably not even in 10 ppm units. LOL.


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Re: THE Carbon Dioxide (CO2) Thread Pt. 6

Unread postby Midnight Oil » Sat 08 Apr 2017, 08:36:54

Let's ALL laugh out loud at this, real funny, tears in my eyes

At no point in human history have CO2 levels been this high.
For the past 800,000 years, at least, CO2 levels have fluctuated between 180 and 300 ppm.
The last time atmospheric CO2 was at 400 parts per million was during the ancient Pliocene Era, three to five million years ago, and humans didn’t exist.
- Global average temperatures were 3 to 4 degrees C warmer than today (5.4 to 7.2 degrees F).
- Polar temperatures were as much as 10 degrees C warmer than today (18 degrees F).
- The Arctic was ice free.
- Sea level was between five and 40 meters higher (16 to 130 feet) than today.
- Coral reefs suffered mass die-offs.
“The extreme speed at which carbon dioxide concentrations are increasing is unprecedented. An increase of 10 parts per million might have needed 1,000 years or more to come to pass during ancient climate change events. Now the planet is poised to reach the 1,000 ppm level in only 100 years if emissions trajectories remain at their present level

This out does that silly graph and the lines
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Re: THE Carbon Dioxide (CO2) Thread Pt. 6

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 08 Apr 2017, 09:03:02

April 07: 406.95 ppm
April 06: 406.92 ppm
April 05: Unavailable
April 04: 408.07 ppm
April 03: 407.82 ppm
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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