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THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

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THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Cog » Wed 17 May 2017, 04:24:01

Most people are not going to munch their granola and do back-packing into the more remote parts of the NPS. But those areas are there and protected largely due to the soccer moms and dads who are able to access the parks by vehicle to see some of the natural beauty contained within. Its a balance, but one that the NPS has done a fairly good job of maintaining.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread pt 4

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 17 May 2017, 07:01:47

Midnight Oil wrote: But the chief victims of the system are the motorized tourists. They are being robbed and robbing themselves. So long as they are unwilling to crawl out of their cars they will not discover the treasures of the national parks and will never escape the stress and turmoil of the urban-suburban complexes which they had hoped, presumably, to leave behind for a while.”
Desert Solitaire


You cannot be robbed of something you never had. You can not be robbed of depth if shallow is all you know. The NPS receives 275 million visitors a year, of which 99% only know the infrastructure of industrial tourism. In many parks traffic jams are the daily norm and the huge infrastructure to support this industrial tourism has expanded way beyond what Edward Abbey wrote about years ago.

I had a major epiphany around this topic years ago. I used to hold with the utmost disdain this industrial tourism until one day when deep in the Everglades NP I realized that the vast majority living artificial and superficial lives awarded me with access to tremendous solitude. If everyone else had my values the backwoods would be crowded. So I dropped the despair.

The vast majority love to clusterfxxk together bathing in mediocrity. This is the reality of our times. If you do not follow the herd you have many opportunities to create a separate reality. The national parks, forests, BLM land and many state parks offer many magic and empty spaces.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread pt 4

Unread postby Midnight Oil » Wed 17 May 2017, 07:43:09

You Guys don't have a clue what "Catus Ed" is saying.
my god! i'm thinking, what incredible shit we've put up with most of our lives - the domestic routine (same old jobs, insufferable arrogance of elected officials, the crafty cheating and the slimy advertising of the businessman, the tedious wars in which we kill our buddies instead of our real enemies back home in the capital, the foul diseased and hideous cities and towns we live in, the constant petty tyranny of automatic washers and automobiles and tv machines and telephones -! ah christ!, i'm thinking, at the same time that i'm waving goodby to that hollering idiot on shore, what intolerable garbage and what utterly useless crap we bury ourselves in day by day, while patiently enduring at the same time the creeping strangulation of the clean white collar and the rich but modest four-in-hand garrote)”
― Edward Abbey, Desert Solitaire
“Wilderness and motors are incompatible and the former can best be experienced, understood and enjoyed when the machines are left behind where they belong -- on the superhighways and in the parking lots, on the reservoirs and in the marinas.”
― Edward Abbey, Desert Solitaire / A Season in the Wilderness
https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/2 ... -solitaire

And MY Guess, You All NEVER will!
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread pt 4

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Wed 17 May 2017, 09:19:52

My guess is, that you will also grow old, unable to backpack, paddle, or even walk a lengthy trail. Such things happen or don't, mostly dependant upon your genes. There are relatively few able to access the remote areas in advanced age. I suppose that many will be reduced to virtual access, via remote sensor platforms, better than nothing. I have seen many things in both Yosemite and Yellowstone that I never saw in person, on the National Geographic channel.

At last count, I have fished 22 states and Canada, with 28 states remaining. Call it a personal goal.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread pt 4

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Wed 17 May 2017, 10:48:56

Midnight Oil wrote:You Guys don't have a clue what "Catus Ed" is saying.
--------------------------------
And MY Guess, You All NEVER will!

I'm pretty sure that I have more than a clue.
But I'm also pretty sure that condescension won't give anyone a clue.
Maybe you should go to the desert and reflect on your attitude.
"It don't make no sense that common sense don't make no sense no more"
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Wed 17 May 2017, 10:53:58

KJ said
Arches NP is a destination in itself, and not a through road. There are no lodges or hotels or campsites there. The park is seen, appreciated, and protected. If "Catus Ed Abby" says different, he is wrong.

Actually there is quite a nice campground at the end of that road. Available for RV's and tents.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Wed 17 May 2017, 11:24:17

Hawkcreek wrote:
KJ said
Arches NP is a destination in itself, and not a through road. There are no lodges or hotels or campsites there. The park is seen, appreciated, and protected. If "Catus Ed Abby" says different, he is wrong.

Actually there is quite a nice campground at the end of that road. Available for RV's and tents.


Take your word on it, I have only been there once, years ago.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Wed 17 May 2017, 11:42:13

You are kind of right. The campground is closed now due to major construction on "the road".
It re-opens in November of this year, though.
About 50 spaces, and a real nice place. I've seen lots of RV's there with a jeep behind as a toad.
"It don't make no sense that common sense don't make no sense no more"
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Midnight Oil » Wed 17 May 2017, 12:00:11

Ahh, ATTITUDE.... That's what ILOVE about Catus Ed....ATTITUDE...
Like this...
Damnit ...get out of those metal boxes and walk until your barely are about to crawl...maybe then we will actually see something.....probably not...
Now is that what you're talking about?
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Wed 17 May 2017, 12:06:05

Nope, I understood the call of solitude and the wide open spaces probably before you were born.
I'm talking about this attitude:
con·de·scen·sion
ˌkändəˈsen(t)SH(ə)n/Submit
noun
an attitude of patronizing superiority; disdain.
"a tone of condescension"
"It don't make no sense that common sense don't make no sense no more"
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Midnight Oil » Wed 17 May 2017, 12:10:33

Yep, that's Cactus Ed alright! Spot ON!
You'll really enjoy his ATTITUDE...Hey Duke...move along now...
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread pt 4

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 17 May 2017, 12:23:32

Midnight Oil wrote:
And MY Guess, You All NEVER will!


Edward Abbey's words are as salient today as they were 40 years ago when I read them the first time and resonated with them. Midnight, this is no longer relevant today. The great vast majority because they never knew anything different, choose to stay deeply embedded in the malaise Edward Abbey writes about. They have no interest to go beyond the superficial experience of motoring down a black asphalt road looking at arches and scenery out their window. They are unfamiliar with a Canyon Wren calling in the acoustics of a slot canyon with the percussion of water dropping down from a seep on the canyon walls.

I have zero interest these days in educating the masses to be more sensitive to the natural world. I prefer the vast ignorance that affords me more solitude in wilderness places. We have built an infrastructure here at Mount Totumas that limits the number of guests and this is by design. There is no adrenalized zip lines through the forest, no Disneyland nature experience here. This is all by design. Just 40km of trails through the Cloud Forest. I get inquiries from folks asking me what are the activities they can do when they come. I send them on to Boquete nearby where they can wait in long lines to zipline through the canopy like fools. Fortunately we still have enough folks who do want to merge with the hum of wilderness, who come here to enter into habitat dominated by the ecosystem with no signs of man outside a trail hardly bigger than a game trail. These are the guests we serve. But again, why try to educate the masses differently? To what end?

Leave the masses to their mediocrity. It opens up plenty of cracks and space for those of us who know better to create our own separate reality.

Edward Abbey was well embedded back then in the 70's that there was still hope to implant in the shallow suburbanites a deeper wilderness ethic. His books were well read and he did succeed as a writer to put prose to these deeper wilderness spaces.

Sorry Edward, we have moved way beyond where you left off. We have a vast sea of shallow fools who have no interest any longer in your prose. A vast sea of humanity where nature is such an abstraction that Edward's words no longer have a hook on to where they can tether. These references are gone among the vast population today.

I like the masses ignorant. They cluster together in places with no future, with values that have no future, with aspirations that remain shallow and indolent. They are not adaptive to the changes coming our way.

Since we have to get back down to a billion or so anyway why not just write them off. Why attempt to educate?

Damn, am I feeling cynical today as I watch the clouds drifting up the valley and enshrouding us in a blanket of mist.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Midnight Oil » Wed 17 May 2017, 12:42:38

Relax, Guy, don't get all bent out of shape! Damn, folks here got a hair up their ars*
Catus Ed wrote it all was disappearing fast, so best run out to see it all before it gets turned into "profits". Still remember reading throw something that is a bit bright and shiny...at what...I really don't remember...no matter...too far along now for it to really change the outcome.
Something like those German Generals in July of 1944 knocking off Der Führer to change the outcome. Come on, got to be pretty darn blind and dumb to not see the handwriting on the wall.
As far as being relevant today, who cares? Let the reader alone decide.
What was it someone said, Books are like bananas, best when somewhat fresh and not too overripe.
Anyway, sorry to have caused any brushingly of feelings...
Ahh, you Guys are big boys now....you'll get over it, if not call Mama
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Wed 17 May 2017, 12:45:34

Midnight Oil wrote:Yep, that's Cactus Ed alright! Spot ON!
You'll really enjoy his ATTITUDE...Hey Duke...move along now...

I missed the whole "Hey Duke" thing. Is that a line from one of your Sponge Bob shows, or something? :-D
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Midnight Oil » Wed 17 May 2017, 13:02:59

Hayduke is an ex-Green Beret, one-time explosives expert and medic in the Vietnam War; and an American environmentalist hero. The specific cultural use of the term Hayduke is derived from this character.

Origins Edit

The character of Hayduke was based on his friend and author, Doug Peacock, a Vietnam vet that Abbey befriended and traveled with in the Southwest United States. He is most likely named after the Haiduks, rebels in the Ottoman Empire, and one of Eric Hobsbawm's archetypal bandits.

Hayduke is Abbey's codification of the wants, longings, and desires of the average male environmentalist awash in the frustrations of corporate greed and corruption where the voice of the little people remain unheard—until the little people rise up and take direct action because, as Abbey's Monkey Wrench Gang puts it, "somebody has to do it."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_ ... (character )

Yep, Sponge head Bob...you could say
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Wed 17 May 2017, 13:31:33

Sounds like my kind of guy, cause nobody hates corporations and the government more than me. While not an explosives expert, I did use C4 to heat up my C rations a few times.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Wed 17 May 2017, 13:32:50

Damn, Ibon. You played the condescending elitest exclusionary know-it-all card with exquisite skill.

Some of us have handicaps like a crippling auto-immune disease that causes my joints to inflame and turning cartilage into low density bone, breaking apart as I move, requiring surgical relief. I was diagnosed at age 28 and it's 37 years later. I did my share of backpacking and day-hiking in the wilderness for 15+ years after being diagnosed, and I have frequently spent days at a time away from the works of man.

But I can't do it any more, I take prescription-strength NSAIDs for constant skeletal pain, and some day I'll be forced to switch to opioids, when my liver can't take the lesser painkillers anymore. I can still enjoy the wilderness, I find, as long as some beaureacrat doesn't block the Jeep trails.

The wilderness areas are for everyone to enjoy, not just the Catus Ed crowd. Like it or not, since he wrote his prose and expressed his own condescending BS, the country has grown to 330 million people, each with an equal right to access those same places he treasured. I happen to think that the NPS does a good job balancing access for all with protection.

Some day, the slash and burn border may pass through Mt. Totumas. What is now inconceivable to you may become all too real in decades to come, as Panama begins to starve. It's good that you are documenting something that may disappear entirely.

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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Wed 17 May 2017, 13:35:41

KaiserJeep wrote:Damn, Ibon. You played the condescending elitest exclusionary know-it-all card with exquisite skill.

Exxackally!
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 17 May 2017, 15:32:05

KaiserJeep wrote:Damn, Ibon. You played the condescending elitest exclusionary know-it-all card with exquisite skill.


Thanks. I am honest about my elitism. I try to be anyway.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 17 May 2017, 16:37:47

KaiserJeep wrote: I happen to think that the NPS does a good job balancing access for all with protection.


35 years ago I was pretty hard core into wilderness trips and expeditions. We didn't even go into national parks which we regarded as parks. We were pretty intense about this, getting a back country permit in a national park meant we were being monitored and controlled of where we had to camp each night etc. We choose not to visit most national parks for this reason.

In the desert southwest we did a lot of back packing trips for 7-10 days into slot canyons on BLM land. Some of those magic spots have become upgraded to national parks or monuments in the meantime. Escalante Canyons and Great Staircase are now monuments, back then in the 70's this was all still BLM land were a few of us knew the access points to some wilderness canyon areas that were completely unknown by the general public. We considered these spots secrets and very few knew about these spots. It was word of mouth and hand drawn maps back then, nothing published. This added to the allure of these places.

I worked back then for several years as a therapeutic wilderness counselor working with problem kids and all our spare time me and my buddies were off on crazy expeditions, back packs, one time 600 km canoeing the Churchhill River in northern Saskatchewan for the whole month of September.

We were hard core. Looking back now as a 60 year old I admit we were kind of arrogant and cocky but at the same time wilderness flowed through our veins and nothing less than unregulated huge wilderness areas off the map would excite us. As I said National Parks were just parks for us.

I am still the same in many ways, I still hold myself somewhat exclusive over most of my fellow humans. This all started back then. Like KJ I have physical limitations but our 400 acres that borders 1.5 million acres still provides me that sense of wilderness, walking our trails that touch directly a vast upland wilderness where tapirs and jaguars still roam.

I am grateful to wilderness for exposing me to a deeper sensibility to the natural world and yes I admit that this perspective makes me consider most humans as having quite diminished lives. Call me elitist if you like, I am just being honest. I consider most of humanity to be shallow & superficial, cowardly, indolent, lazy, mostly trash actually. Takers not givers. Wanting the good life which means big cars and houses and all the works.

This is related to why I support the growing disparity of wealth. Most of humanity makes bad use of wealth. Given the chance they consume away as much as possible, even more than they should as you can see by the debt levels. That's not to say I support the 1%. They are mostly trash as well. I support the growing disparity of wealth in order to restrict wealth to the 99% not because I am aligned with the 1% which I am not. I just know that in aggregate we would be consuming a lot more if we more evenly distributed the wealth. Humans don't handle opulence well, better to restrict access.

I am an elitist.....yep. definitely.
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