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THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby asg70 » Wed 24 May 2017, 21:28:45

Anyone who thinks that merely switching to another -ism (like communism) will solve limits to growth is an idiot, plain and simple. The environmental record of the soviet union or china is abysmal (Chernobyl anyone?) Just because they didn't have Wal-Marts doesn't mean communism wouldn't kill the planet. Maybe it would take longer, but we'd get there eventually.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 25 May 2017, 02:00:05

asg70 is correct. We are screwed, blued, and tattooed because apes do not restrain their reproduction rates. There are far far too many people and not enough stuff. The presence of our food species, both animal and plant, is even more disruptive than the human animals themselves.

There will be war. Possibly an apocalyptic war.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 25 May 2017, 07:50:09

KaiserJeep wrote:asg70 is correct. We are screwed, blued, and tattooed because apes do not restrain their reproduction rates. There are far far too many people and not enough stuff. The presence of our food species, both animal and plant, is even more disruptive than the human animals themselves.


I still grapple with this question about our fecundity and ever being able to self regulate our numbers. We evolved where our reproductive limits where set by nature so all we ever did was reproduce when the times were good and contract and die-off during lean times. This ebb and flow was the rhythm set by nature. It is fundamental to our species and all species.

Now we our masters of the universe so we believe, harnessing power and extracting the planets resources in every nook and cranny, this wholesale recycling plundering natural ecosystems and their biomass and converting it over to humans and their crops and livestock. With no sense of balance or set of limits as to what and how much we consume and to what limits we breed.

Take a moment and look at this fresh from an ecological perspective and forget a moment about communism or capitalism and just sit still and meditate on this conundrum of our biology for awhile and give yourself permission in an unbiased way to imagine a way that we could ever one day self regulate within a cultural, religious, economic and governing system that would somehow keep us in a steady state so that we can break these bonds that have held us in these endless cycles of population bloom and then die-off and decline. Over and over again this cycle has repeated itself in all the civilizations to date. Ours seems to be no different. Only the scale is different.

With secular science and reason and the age of enlightenment one would think that we could regulate ourselves in the same way as we regulate our environment. We cannot apply to ourselves the management skills that we use when managing crops or industrial processes or technology.

We can design and program in the most sophisticated way intelligent devices and yet fail completely to recognize that we need to do the same for managing our own species.

This failure will be our demise and force us once again to be plowed under in this cycle of rise and decline. I don't see us breaking this bond this time around. I don't have any idea what will rise out of the ashes of our declining civilization.

Sometimes I hold out still that the consequences of this decline may plant the seeds of some new spiritual or religious foundation that would hold us to a set of sustainable commandments.

I just don't know any more and have gotten to a place that I accept this.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Cog » Thu 25 May 2017, 08:17:50

We aren't limited to the environment we happen to find ourselves in like the lower animals of the field. We can harvest things, like oil, gas, and coal and improve our abilities to reproduce in large quantities. Stop trying to make humans just like any other animal. We are special and unique on the whole planet and we can manipulate the environment and exploit resources to suit ourselves.

I'm not blind to the fact there are actual physical limits to human's ability to exploit the planet but we aren't there yet and likely won't be for quite some time.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 25 May 2017, 09:17:14

Cog wrote:We aren't limited to the environment we happen to find ourselves in like the lower animals of the field. We can harvest things, like oil, gas, and coal and improve our abilities to reproduce in large quantities. Stop trying to make humans just like any other animal. We are special and unique on the whole planet and we can manipulate the environment and exploit resources to suit ourselves.


The exploitation part is clear. It is in our inability to self regulate that we are like all other species.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 25 May 2017, 10:41:55

EXACTLY! Stop trying to make out how exceptional we are, humans are just a SLIGHTLY smarter ape. All the rules that apply to all the rest of the animal species apply to us as well.

Cog, you are very much in touch with our instinctual animal behavioir. Probably the poster most in tune with the animal urges. The one who sees the world most clearly through instinctual eyes.

You of all folks should deeply understand just how animal we are. Just how unexceptional. How instinctual.

That's what makes your posts refreshing, and disturbing, you channel the survival instinct within us all.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby onlooker » Thu 25 May 2017, 10:46:21

Stop trying to make humans just like any other animal.--We are like other animals in the sense of being biological beings who require are certain parameter range of conditions on this planet to survive. And we are in the process of destabilizing those conditions.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby asg70 » Thu 25 May 2017, 13:30:57

onlooker wrote:Stop trying to make humans just like any other animal.


Where you come in is there is a moral tinge to your ideology. Man's inhumanity to man. The powerful subjugating the weak. Well, sorry to break it to you, but that's the natural order of things too. Everything down to deer locking antlers to compete for mating. Nature is amoral. Morality is a construct of the human brain mostly designed to facilitate cooperation within the narrow constraints of family and tribe which is why prejudice exists, why wars happen, why Manchester happened. I don't LIKE this state of affairs, but it it is what it is. We're not designed to live in harmony on this planet, billions strong, highly diverse, elbow to elbow. We're designed to function in little tribal bands that kick the shit out of each other every time we cross paths, like chimpanzees.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby onlooker » Thu 25 May 2017, 14:23:59

In fact, modern anthropology and neuroscience show that cooperation, group identity, and a sense of fair play are defining features of humanity

In contrast to chimpanzees, who are obsessed with competing against each other, humans evolved to become the most cooperative of primates through our ability to share intentions with each other, while recognizing that others see the world from different perspectives. This enabled early humans to work collaboratively on complex tasks, creating communities with shared values and practices that became the basis for culture and civilization.

Genes are fundamentally selfish:
New foundation: Nature is a network
This has been extensively discredited as a simplistic interpretation of evolution. In its place, biologists are developing a more sophisticated view of evolution as a series of complex, interlocking systems, where the gene, organism, community, species, and environment all interact with each other, both competitively and cooperatively

[quote]Rather than a battleground of “selfish genes” competing to outperform one another, modern biologists offer a new view of nature as a web of networked systems, dynamically optimizing at different levels of evolutionary selection. This recognition that cooperative networking is an essential part of sustainable ecosystems can inspire new ways to structure human technology and social organization for future flourishing.[/quote
Asg, people I presume have been debating morality since we mastered language and I assume we will continue for as long as we exist
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 26 May 2017, 09:08:03

onlooker wrote:cooperation, group identity, and a sense of fair play are defining features of humanity


You mean like we see in suicide bombers and serial killers?

This enabled early humans to work collaboratively on complex tasks, creating communities with shared values and practices that became the basis for culture and civilization.


Keyword = early civilization. Tribalism, a two-edged sword.

web of networked systems


You mean like ISIS cells?
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Cog » Fri 07 Jul 2017, 07:57:40

Trump economy still booming away. Jobs added and wages up too.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/07/busi ... yment.html

The labor market roared back in June, with a hefty monthly gain in jobs, and revisions that added 47,000 more jobs to April and May than previously reported. Over the past three months, job gains have averaged 194,000 a month.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 23 Sep 2017, 11:43:19

Brought over from another thread as suggested.
Postby onlooker » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:30 am
In responsee to VTS and his assertion that Capitalism has been such a success. Well, maybe for a relatively few on this planet for a brief time. Otherwise, Capitalism is nothing more than economic Survival of the fittest. So, that throughout time a small minority of people have benefitted from this market economic system and usually those same have exploited all the rest of the people as slaves, feudal peasants, in invasions for monetary/resource gain etc.
So in the modern age it is no different. The masses of the third world have neutered to helplessness while the rich countries and its citizens have benefitted. Sorry, to veer away from topic but thought I would set the record straight. If anyone wishes to debate about this, we can on the "Capitaism is Evil" thread in the Economics and Finance forum

This "relatively few" people keep talking about. Dose that include the 330 million Americans that have a median household income over $50K? How about the millions in the EU? Japan? China? I'm a very average American and I wouldn't consider myself a slave or even an economic slave. The poor third world is poor most often because they have socialist and dictatorial governments and economies.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 23 Sep 2017, 13:03:52

"Socially and economically, we have created great disparities of wealth. A minority of the world's population (17%) consume most of the world's resources (80%), leaving almost 5 billion people to live on the remaining 20%. As a result, billions of people are living without the very basic necessities of life - food, water, housing and sanitation."
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 23 Sep 2017, 13:18:24

Capitalism began before writing in the form of merchant caravans, travelling from village to village and trading goods. The invention of money, accounting, securities and commodity markets, all folllowed. Far from being a disease on humanity, capitalism is responsible for civilization as we know it. That it is so successful in it's present form has unfortunately allowed 7.3+ billions of Kudzu Apes to exist. We are crowding out other species on the planet, those without Capitaliism.

It is only when one re-defines the age-old definition of success to include the environment around us that one can even begin to claim that Capitalism is flawed. However, in reality Capitalism is at best an enabler of natural primate proclivities.

As others have noted, there exists natural curbs to growth in the Western World. The USA for example would have a shrinking population less immigration from Second and Third World countries. But the globe will be troubled by overpopulation as long as the Third World exists, as long as people struggle to survive, as long as ignorance exists, as long as oppression exists.

Without a doubt the presence of Communism, Socialism, Marxism, etc. comprise the very essence of evil. Those who promote such things to replace Capitalism are themselves evil. But most of all, they are abysmally ignorant. In the midst of the greatest civilization and the most prosperity that has ever existed for the most people, they preach a theory that totally lacks merit because they refuse to acknowledge that basic primate behavior is the center of Capitalism.

In case you are wondering, the Capitalist countries did nothing to oppress the Third World. In seeking to spread prosperity, they spread agriculture, medicine, and cheap fossil-fuelled energy. Then in less than four generations, the Third World population swelled to unsustainable numbers. The First World enabled this, with the best of intentions. Now there are too many people to allow for First World lifestyles for all.

Marx and Engels were ignorant fools whose ridiculous fantasies have killed far more people than anything else in this world. If you think that is desireable, you could go on admiring them. If you believe in freedom and self determination, you are a Capitalist.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 23 Sep 2017, 14:08:07

Again, Kaiser, I have displayed links to experts who attest that Primate behaviors are a miixed bag and some are quite virtuous and altruistic. Second, we humans have evolved beyond primates and have cognitive and emotions that reflect our more advanced evolution. So, Capitalism is not inevitable. It simply reflects that Capitalism by its nature being an aggressive nature, invaded and subjugated whole areas of land and peoples and indoctrinated them into a formal Capitalism not just trade and profit as you tend to equate it ALL as part of Capitlaism. As for rich countries have done nothing to oppress poorer countries gosh give me a break. The modus operandi has been exploitation which is the essense of modern Capitalism as practiced by Empires. As for uplifting poor people hardly. To this day billions without electricity, with hardly any access to the markeplace of goods and services because of lack of money. 3 Billion live on $2 dollars or less per day. Whole countries and economies stunted not necessarily because of lack of intelligent people or hard working people but because they have been at the mery of exploitative practices whereby their Economices as conditions to receive loans were forced to be adapted to import and export and thus never developed their local economies or enabled people to sustain themselves with small businesses. Not to mention the pillaging of resources. As for killing no greater testament can exist to the dead end of the Capitalistic mindset than the fact that in the earnestness for profit and material gain which the Capitalism system embodies, the entire Earth is set up now for ridding billions of us. And so your very argument bolsters my case. The modern lifestyle enabled by the pursuers of wealth, itself enabled so many people to come to exist via medicines, fossil fuel exploitation, worldwide transport, the Green Revolution etc. So overpopulation enabled by Capitalism.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 23 Sep 2017, 14:47:37

Overpopulation is caused by ape instincts. But for tens of thousands of years, "good" was whatever enabled more people, more wealth, more liesure, more material goods, more of everything.

Now, within my lifespan, we are starting to run up against natural limits. Too many people, not enough stuff. So, you propose changing the definition of "good" - as if that would help the situation at all.

One possible re-definition would be to say that a man who bashes newborn infants on the head with a hammer is a "good man". After all, he is directly and efficiently addressing the underlying problem of too many people.

China flirted with the idea, when they enacted a "one child" policy. Nothing wrong with the policy, it was how they went about enforcing it. Women who had a single child were forced to abort another pregnancy. If they successfully hid the pregnancy, and it was discovered late in the third trimester, the abortion method was to induce labor, and when the infant's head began to "crown", to inject formaldehyde into the infant's head so that it died before being fully birthed. Performed by midwives and doctors, the moral equivalent of bashing with a hammer.

In any less oppressive society than Chinese Communism, it would have resulted in the extermination of the government. Why don't you take a stab at justifying such behavior, being a good little Marxist?
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 23 Sep 2017, 15:06:34

No, I do not justify that behavior. Oh and by the way I am not a Marxist. I consider myself an Anarchist. But anyway I think we need to separate this debate from what has occurred from what should or will occur. I see no happy ending. Millions and billions of people will probably die in the wind down of Civilization and the ensuing more drastic effects of AGW. I only hope that throughout all this period, people will channel their more noble instincts and have compassion for each other and behave as such.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby asg70 » Sat 23 Sep 2017, 15:11:07

onlooker wrote:Millions and billions of people will probably die in the wind down of Civilization and the ensuing more drastic effects of AGW. I only hope that throughout all this period, people will channel their more noble instincts and have compassion for each other and behave as such.


Good luck with that. People tend not to go silently into that good night.

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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 23 Sep 2017, 15:36:08

If anarchy is your goal, you are at heart a Capitalist. That is the system that spontaneously replaces everything else after the alternatives fail.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 23 Sep 2017, 16:39:40

onlooker wrote:... As a result, billions of people are living without the very basic necessities of life - food, water, housing and sanitation."
Obviously the people that repeatedly write and say this are wrong. If it is a "necessity of life" and a person lacks it they will soon be dead. So there are two choices, one that people can live with much less food ,water , shelter and clothing then the authors think is "necessary"or two these people, that keep on living and increasing in population, have found ways to acquire adequate amounts of these" necessities "that the authors can't understand or measure.
At any rate the mere fact that the authors have declared these people if not dead doomed to soon be dead when they if fact persist and multiply proves that the authors are idiots.
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