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THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 03 Dec 2017, 09:15:40

With the recent revelations about dominant ie. rich and powerful, males forcing themselves on young breeding age females it becomes apparent that education and culture have made little inroads in our apelike instinctive behaviors.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby ralfy » Sun 03 Dec 2017, 20:12:58

The irony is that that public education system was set up by industrialists.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 04 Dec 2017, 01:27:19

ralfy wrote:The irony is that that public education system was set up by industrialists.

I see the present education system as an evolution from the New England style one room school house system put in place by Jeffersonian subsistence farmers. The industrialists just took it to a higher level to provide the educated work force they needed. Unfortunately today robots are removing the need for masses of skilled workers. How much can we afford to spend on educating people that have no job prospect in front of them?
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby ralfy » Mon 04 Dec 2017, 05:49:49

vtsnowedin wrote: I see the present education system as an evolution from the New England style one room school house system put in place by Jeffersonian subsistence farmers. The industrialists just took it to a higher level to provide the educated work force they needed. Unfortunately today robots are removing the need for masses of skilled workers. How much can we afford to spend on educating people that have no job prospect in front of them?


It may have been more than just a higher level. The premise is that the public education system followed the Prussian model:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_ ... ted_States

Such that the system eventually followed what was seen in industries and even in the military, i.e., hierarchies, credentials, and quantification of performance. In short, factory model schools:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factory_model_school

which works very well with capitalist systems.

As for robots, not only do they need the opposite of peak oil and generally limits to growth, they also reveal more internal flaws concerning capitalist systems. In this case, it's not so much justifying the need for spending more on education for consumers with no job prospects but who will be buying goods produced by robots.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 04 Dec 2017, 08:19:04

ralfy wrote:
As for robots, not only do they need the opposite of peak oil and generally limits to growth, they also reveal more internal flaws concerning capitalist systems. In this case, it's not so much justifying the need for spending more on education for consumers with no job prospects but who will be buying goods produced by robots.

Perhaps we will find a way to tax each robot so it supports a displaced worker and his family.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby asg70 » Mon 04 Dec 2017, 09:10:42

While I thought this site had met its doom I watched some recent documentaries on AI/robotics. I really think doomers should stay informed about what's going on in this realm because the world simply is not the same as it was when the PeakOil meme was in its heyday. Rather than clinging to the narrative of technology failing and powerdown being our doom you're gonna have to factor in the disruption of AI/robotics on society.

I think the biggest weak-spot in the analysis here is in technology as most here are retirement-age (or near retirement-age) ex-hippie types who haven't kept up on technology and have luddite tendencies.
Therefore a lot of what passes for predictions here are just wishful thinking on the part of those with large axes to grind against BAU.

The AI Race
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLeuCj0ZFo4

Rise of the Robots 1 & 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiRCX9t4Qrg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zR6-bzi6a_k
Hubbert's curve, meet S-curve: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b3ttqYDwF0
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby ralfy » Mon 04 Dec 2017, 20:33:55

vtsnowedin wrote: Perhaps we will find a way to tax each robot so it supports a displaced worker and his family.


But won't that tax be passed on to the consumer, who also happens to be the displaced worker?
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 05 Dec 2017, 00:57:14

ralfy wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote: Perhaps we will find a way to tax each robot so it supports a displaced worker and his family.


But won't that tax be passed on to the consumer, who also happens to be the displaced worker?

Yes just like the assembly line workers wages and taxes were passed on in the value of a '57 chevy only the displaced worker won't have to commute to work or purchase day care for his children so the support level needed will be less.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby baha » Tue 05 Dec 2017, 06:25:00

AI is like electric cars...It will only happen when it can pay for itself.

A robot is a slave. The only way I will buy one is if it can make me money (so I can build things for fun) :) It will cook and clean, work the garden, and hold a full time job that pays me. Otherwise, why buy it?
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby baha » Tue 05 Dec 2017, 07:59:02

It makes me think of Isaac Asimov's Foundation series of books. There was a (self aware) robot that unquestionably served his master his entire life. When the master died he declared the robot to be free.

The robot lived for 1000's of years, wandered the galaxy, analysed and reported on the faults of the human race. It's a good series.

ASG - If you haven't read it, you should...ever heard of the three laws of robotics? If I remember right...1 is never harm a human, 2 is never allow a human to be harmed, 3 is self preservation. In order of importance...
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Cog » Tue 05 Dec 2017, 08:05:00

The three laws:

1.A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
2.A robot must obey the orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3.A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Laws.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 05 Dec 2017, 08:19:24

An article from our front page.

Much to ponder here.

http://cassandralegacy.blogspot.com/201 ... y.html?m=1
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Cog » Tue 05 Dec 2017, 08:41:36

From your link Newfie:

I can be rich only if you are poor; wealth is a relation: there has to be poverty in order to have wealth.

The man is either an idiot or a communist to believe such a thing. Typical progressive trash. I know this is a common thought process of those who are jealous of other's wealth and seek to destroy it by confiscation, but its not true now and never has been. A wealth redistributionist is a criminal, no better than a mugger except he has government do that which he won't do himself. No need to fancy it up. That is what they do.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby GHung » Tue 05 Dec 2017, 09:08:20

Cog wrote:From your link Newfie:

I can be rich only if you are poor; wealth is a relation: there has to be poverty in order to have wealth.

The man is either an idiot or a communist to believe such a thing. Typical progressive trash. I know this is a common thought process of those who are jealous of other's wealth and seek to destroy it by confiscation, but its not true now and never has been. A wealth redistributionist is a criminal, no better than a mugger except he has government do that which he won't do himself. No need to fancy it up. That is what they do.


Warren Buffet says the only true wealth can be counted by the number of people who love you. Of course, you wouldn't know anything about that, Cog, since you define wealth as having more money than the next guy.
Helluva way to waste a life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIDMqq_fH8U
Blessed are the Meek, for they shall inherit nothing but their Souls. - Anonymous Ghung Person
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby asg70 » Tue 05 Dec 2017, 12:30:50

baha wrote:ASG - If you haven't read it, you should...


Have not read Foundation but have seen just about anything related to AI/Robots on TV and movies.

Again, as far as this topic's relevance, the important thing to note is the disconnect between those who feel we've reached a point of diminishing returns on innovation (which is the classic peak oil doom position) and those who feel we have a ways to go before LTG kicks in. I feel the latter reflects the current reality much closer whereas classic doomers come across as uninformed and biased.

It's also important to note that just because one sees the rise of AI doesn't make one a cornucopian as this sort of future could pose its own existential threat to the status quo as we know it. It's just a DIFFERENT kind of existential threat than end-of-Rome style collapse. So I don't like the attempt by luddites to strawman those who are anticipating technology as cornucopians.
Hubbert's curve, meet S-curve: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b3ttqYDwF0
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 05 Dec 2017, 20:50:21

Cog,

Somehow I think you missed the main points of the article.

Never mind, in my own humble words, Calitalisim is an outgrowth of the Puritan Work Ethic, which had its merits. It worked as long as we had expansive lands to develop. Ben Franklin knew this and argued that the colonies would be no manufacturing threat to England as long as land remained cheap.

But those days are long gone, the manufacturing phase too passed, now land is dear and humanity is cheap due to a super abundance and automation and fossils fuel slaves.

Capitalisim is in trouble because it is locked into the myth of continuous growth. The mantra of Capitalisim has lead us to the state we experience, for good and evil. But it is not able to transition to a new flat growth, much less defrosts, state. This is clearly evident to anyone who can do basic math or just understands you really don’t want your wife to “grow” 10% per annum.

In fact that might be a good metaphore. Capitalisim is a religion where each adherent strives to”grow” as much and as fast as possible, so the greatest outward expression of success is gross obesity. In this religion holding ones weight steady over years is see as sinning, and to diet, to reduce, well that’s blasphemy.

I’m sure Capitalisim will eventually emerge as intercine struggles between smaller and smaller political units. Each unit reveling in the virtue of eating another’s lunch, while in total the whole mess devolves into chaos.

We are a short sighted creature.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby ralfy » Tue 05 Dec 2017, 23:55:30

vtsnowedin wrote: Yes just like the assembly line workers wages and taxes were passed on in the value of a '57 chevy only the displaced worker won't have to commute to work or purchase day care for his children so the support level needed will be less.


Most family expenditures do not involve day care.
http://sites.google.com/site/peakoilreports/
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby radon1 » Wed 06 Dec 2017, 02:45:45

Cog wrote:From your link Newfie:

I can be rich only if you are poor; wealth is a relation: there has to be poverty in order to have wealth.

The man is either an idiot or a communist to believe such a thing.


The flaw is glaring, but it has nothing to do with communists and idiots. Wealth is stated to be a relation, but the poverty is viewed in absolute terms, while it should be treated as relative too. It should not be considered wealth-poverty relationship, it should be considered as that of higher-lower in a hierarchy.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 06 Dec 2017, 08:17:13

Radon

Interesting point.

Where Communisim comes in (using the religion metaphore) is as the foil. Capitalist/consumerist (but I’m getting ahead of myself) need a foil like Our monomthesistic religions need a foil. Communisim is the DEVIL.

So it’s quite reasonable for a modern religious adherent (Capitalist/consumerist) to reflectively point to a nonbeliever and call them a communist. It’s like finding witches in Salem.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Cog » Wed 06 Dec 2017, 08:47:22

Redistribution of wealth, capital controls, etc are in fact what communists do. So its not an error to call them what they are.
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