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THE Brent Crude Thread (merged)

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Moderator: Pops

Re: THE Brent Crude Thread (merged)

Unread postby Daniel_Plainview » Tue 14 Jun 2011, 06:44:54

Outcast_Searcher wrote:Recently someone mentioned how weak the US economy seems to be acting and the likely negative impact on WTI. I agree.


Yes, the US economy is weak, while Asian economies are strong, exacerbating the spread between WTI and Brent:

Reuters: "China's implied oil demand in May rose above the 9 million barrel-per-day mark for the seventh month in a row, suggesting brisk consumption persisted ... Any oil price strength has been concentrated on the Brent contract, which has notched up record premiums to its U.S. counterpart. Early on Tuesday, Brent's premium to U.S. crude reached a record $22.22 a barrel, reflecting oversupply in the U.S. market and relatively tight supplies in Europe, analysts said."
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Why is Brent trading at such a premium?

Unread postby dorlomin » Mon 01 Aug 2011, 07:40:48

You'd think it would be worth the money to load up some WTI and ship it across the pond given your getting so much more for your barrel over this side.
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Re: Why is Brent trading at such a premium?

Unread postby dissident » Mon 01 Aug 2011, 08:18:13

The real question is why is WTI trading at such a discount. If the world economy has recovered then 2008 conditions are here again since production has not increased enough. This has been predicted. Under supply constraints the oil price will spike during "boom" phases of the economic cycle, kicking the economy into recession.

It appears Canadian tar sands syncrude is a major reason why WTI is low.
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Re: Why is Brent trading at such a premium?

Unread postby Pops » Mon 01 Aug 2011, 08:56:52

Because the increased shale and sand oil don't have a cheap route to the ocean, but they will next year.

http://www.platts.com/weblog/oilblog/20 ... ude_o.html
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Re: Why is Brent trading at such a premium?

Unread postby Sixstrings » Mon 01 Aug 2011, 11:12:14

Pops wrote:Because the increased shale and sand oil don't have a cheap route to the ocean, but they will next year.

http://www.platts.com/weblog/oilblog/20 ... ude_o.html


Is shale oil in production? I didn't know that.
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Re: Why is Brent trading at such a premium?

Unread postby kublikhan » Mon 01 Aug 2011, 14:39:13

Sixstrings wrote:Is shale oil in production? I didn't know that.
I was curious about this too. I think the "shale oil" pops is referring to is Tight Oil, liquid oil found trapped in shale formations. It is not Oil shale, the solid stuff that needs to be heated or mined.
The oil barrel is half-full.
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Re: Why is Brent trading at such a premium?

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 01 Aug 2011, 17:37:46

kublikhan wrote:
Sixstrings wrote:Is shale oil in production? I didn't know that.
I was curious about this too. I think the "shale oil" pops is referring to is Tight Oil, liquid oil found trapped in shale formations. It is not Oil shale, the solid stuff that needs to be heated or mined.


Everything I read says that's the case.

What I find fascinating is that even trucking arbitrage can't seem to dent the fairly steady $20.00 premuim. As I understand it from reading various blogs/articles on this, one problem is that there aren't lots of spare big rigs around to rent cheap. A new big rig costs around $200,000 if memory serves.

So, that's a HELL of a risk for some big-money outfit to try and arbitrage away that premium by the truckload. Since over time, gasoline and oil stocks seem to have followed the Brent price, WTI is seen as largely irrelevant globally until a new pipeline or sufficient storage resolves the issue.
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Re: Why is Brent trading at such a premium?

Unread postby peeker01 » Mon 01 Aug 2011, 17:45:24

OK guys, what am I missing here? If the US imports 50 percent of it's crude, why are we discussing
the export of wti. Do we export our own crude so we can import saudi? Esplain it to me please?
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Re: Why is Brent trading at such a premium?

Unread postby Pops » Mon 01 Aug 2011, 17:51:16

Tough crowd :-D

Sorry, I did mean oil from Bakken Shale - not oil from shale bakin'
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Re: Why is Brent trading at such a premium?

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 01 Aug 2011, 18:00:39

peeker01 wrote:OK guys, what am I missing here? If the US imports 50 percent of it's crude, why are we discussing
the export of wti. Do we export our own crude so we can import saudi? Esplain it to me please?

Short answer:

It's not that we're necessarily exporting it. It's pure price arbitrage, since it's hard to get it to ANY refinery.

Longer answer:

There is a LOT of crude at Cushing, OK, where WTI is priced (by the rules of the contract). More comes in than can economically be moved out, since Cushing is:

1). Landlocked (no existing OUTGOING pipelines to major ports.
2). Receiving major new supply from the Tar Sands production in Canada.
3). Trucking, using trains, barges, etc. is woefully inadequate to close the gap and is also expensive, as a linked article in a couple of posts from Pops (thanks Pops) above points out.

In 2012, when the new outgoing pipeline is produced (and I think new storage is due in 2013, and other pipelines may come onstream later) -- this situation will dissipate. The oil can go to a port, where it can be cheaply shipped to, say, US refineries.

Since WTI is lighter/sweeter then Brent, it might even go back to its traditional premium price, in time, since it is easier to refine. This probably depends on how the refineries are tuned, for one thing.

(I read up on this on the net when the premium first zoomed toward $20 a barrel, wondering if there was a reasonable futures arbitrage speculation. After seeing how complex the whole thing was, that there was NO consensus, the behavior of Brent vs. WTI futures in further out months/years, and how supposed experts playing against WTI from a $7.00 premium were getting crushed like a BUG), I decided it was FAR too difficult a game to play).
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Re: Why is Brent trading at such a premium?

Unread postby peeker01 » Mon 01 Aug 2011, 18:16:24

OS I think this April article is more telling than the trucking issue. I have a hard time believing it
is piped in and only trucked out.

http://oilprice.com/Energy/Oil-Prices/C ... Month.html
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Re: Why is Brent trading at such a premium?

Unread postby peeker01 » Mon 01 Aug 2011, 18:27:34

Well color me wrong. However, I guess there was a refinery near cushing that valero shut down
which has also exasperated the problem.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/ ... 4920110426
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Re: Why is Brent trading at such a premium?

Unread postby peeker01 » Mon 01 Aug 2011, 18:47:49

Check out this quote.

"Conoco (COP) chief Jim Mulva shot down talk about reversing a pipeline that feeds oil to Cushing from the Gulf Coast, saying, "We don't really think that's in our interest."

It appears to me that Cushing is for stockpiling low priced oil until market forces (traders) find a way
to raise the price. (Am I being naive?) How about a two way pipeline? How hard can that be. I smell a rat!
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Re: THE Brent Crude Thread (merged)

Unread postby Daniel_Plainview » Thu 18 Aug 2011, 13:03:18

dolanbaker wrote:Over $21 right now...


Holy crap ... the divergence is now over $27 (109.49 - 82.08 = 27.41)
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Re: THE Brent Crude Thread (merged)

Unread postby sparky » Tue 23 Aug 2011, 04:54:25

.
it's not Brent which is out of whack , WTI is way out of line with the real world price
look at the biggest benchmark of them all
http://www.opec.org/opec_web/en/data_gr ... dTab=daily

benchmarks are only indicators without much oil behind them
for that matter WTI is not even West Texas crude , it's extinct
so is Brent and Tupis for that matter , those are nominal blends which have evolved for accounting reasons

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/news ... marks.html
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2011 Brent Price Challenge*

Unread postby Pops » Thu 15 Sep 2011, 08:12:10

Since PeakOiler sent me the spreadsheet I thought I'd see how we all are faring with the wti/brent spread so large. In deference to Anti-Doomer's sensibilities you need to understand this is just for fun, no one predicted the Brent price and AD leads in the official WTI challenge at this writing.
The first two columns show ranking with respect to brent and wti prices:

Image

No wonder I was interested! :-D


Here is another chart showing wti/brent and unleaded. WTI is relevant to mid-continent gas prices I suppose but probably not on any of the coasts because those refineries are trading on the world markets. Louisiana Light prices are just a few dollars less than brent right now. US unleaded prices look pretty well married to world prices now, the refiners that can take advantage of the cheaper Cushing crude are just pocketing the difference.

Image
Good article on wti vs brent and why gas in the US seems higher priced than it should be.
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Re: 2011 Brent Price Challenge*

Unread postby TheAntiDoomer » Thu 15 Sep 2011, 09:16:24

Those Rankings are completly silly pops, had I been asked to predict Brent I and all others would have provided completly different numbers. I don't see your point.
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Re: 2011 Brent Price Challenge*

Unread postby Pops » Thu 15 Sep 2011, 10:02:15

TheAntiDoomer wrote:Those Rankings are completly silly pops, had I been asked to predict Brent I and all others would have provided completly different numbers. I don't see your point.


Don't get your panties in a wad, I not stealing your thunder, note the asterisk :lol:

But if you knew the spread would develop like this you really do deserve an award! I wouldn't have and don't remember anyone predicting it - even as it happened. Historically wti and brent have been within just a few dollars of each other, right up till the first of this year in fact. So you and everyone else that knew such a situation would happen really do have clear-crystal balls and must be wealthy individuals!

Image

Anyway, I don't know how to explain my point better than I have and shown in the 2 charts posted, in previous challenges wti was a good benchmark for world oil price but it isn't this year, it's not even a good predictor of US unleaded price.


[dyslexia edit for]
“Quite simply, we are looking at the highest average price since the age of oil began.”
-- Daniel Yergin

The only substitute for cheap energy is expensive energy. -- Me
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Re: 2011 Brent Price Challenge*

Unread postby TheAntiDoomer » Thu 15 Sep 2011, 10:08:32

what on earth are you talking about pops, while not as big as it is now the spread when we made these predictions was around 15, so its not as if there was NO spread at all.
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Re: 2011 Brent Price Challenge*

Unread postby Pops » Thu 15 Sep 2011, 11:45:19

TheAntiDoomer wrote:what on earth are you talking about pops, while not as big as it is now the spread when we made these predictions was around 15, so its not as if there was NO spread at all.

Crimney AD, take a pill, I just thought it interesting.

BTW, the day you made your prediction, wti was $90.99 and brent was $93.08, a difference of $2.09
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