The Bloom Box: An Energy Breakthrough?

[AirlinePilot]

15 years of supply arriving last month.

And the logic you choose completely fails because there is no measure of what the production rate of those 15 years of resource will be. It IS about flow rates and production capability, you just haven't been hit upside the head with it yet..not quite....but it's coming.

[TheAntiDoomer]

15 years of supply arriving last month.

And the logic you choose completely fails because there is no measure of what the production rate of those 15 years of resource will be. It IS about flow rates and production capability, you just haven't been hit upside the head with it yet..not quite....but it's coming.

such hubris AP, meanwhile, back on topic, thiks link has the video embedded for those who have not seen the report yet:


Bloom Box could be the magical fuel cell that saves the world

http://dvice.com/archives/2010/02/bloom-box-could.php

Five to ten years from now, you could have a $3000 fuel cell power generator the size of a clock radio in your basement, turning natural gas into electrical power at twice the efficiency possible today. That's the promise of the Bloom Box, a tiny power plant that combines oxygen and natural gas, a biogas or solar energy, and creates electricity.

So far, Bloom Boxes are the size of about four refrigerators, costing $700,000 to $800,000. Early adopters are companies such as eBay and Google, already saving money using these boxes. But the founder of the secretive Bloom Energy, K.R. Sridhar, says that the cheap materials inside and the inherent efficiency and his design could change the world, bringing cheap energy to everyone in a box that will cost less than $3000.

[yesplease]

i would think the bigger question is what are they made of? If it's another platinum deal like other fuel cells then it's not going to fly. If they are made of common materials then they will soar. Look forward to the answers.

No platinum AFAIK, just ceramics, some sort of cheapish alloy, and a proprietary ink.

[pstarr]

15 years of supply arriving last month.

And the logic you choose completely fails because there is no measure of what the production rate of those 15 years of resource will be. It IS about flow rates and production capability, you just haven't been hit upside the head with it yet..not quite....but it's coming.

such hubris AP,

Hubris? That's funny. You have it bass-ackwards.

hu·bris (hybrs) also hy·bris (h-)
n.
Overbearing pride or presumption; arrogance: "There is no safety in unlimited technological hubris" (McGeorge Bundy).

meanwhile, back on topic, thiks link has the video embedded for those who have not seen the report yet:


Bloom Box could be the magical fuel cell that saves the world

http://dvice.com/archives/2010/02/bloom-box-could.php

Five to ten years from now, you could have a $3000 fuel cell power generator the size of a clock radio in your basement, turning natural gas into electrical power at twice the efficiency possible today. That's the promise of the Bloom Box, a tiny power plant that combines oxygen and natural gas, a biogas or solar energy, and creates electricity.

So far, Bloom Boxes are the size of about four refrigerators, costing $700,000 to $800,000. Early adopters are companies such as eBay and Google, already saving money using these boxes. But the founder of the secretive Bloom Energy, K.R. Sridhar, says that the cheap materials inside and the inherent efficiency and his design could change the world, bringing cheap energy to everyone in a box that will cost less than $3000.

That is a hole lot of promise.

[yesplease]

You still have utilities, in the form of natural gas suppliers. Or do you think everybody's going to have high-pressure hydrogen tanks on premises, filled by lossy electrolysis driven by wind and solar?

It depends on how much these things cost versus what batteries would cost, assuming the people went w/o a grid connection. If this FC is cheap enough, say $3000 like they mentioned, and will last a couple decades, then even if the levelized cost of energy from solar panels is doubled or tripled due to converting electricity to hydrogen and back to electricity, it may still be cheaper than batteries. Time will tell.

[TheAntiDoomer]

i would think the bigger question is what are they made of? If it's another platinum deal like other fuel cells then it's not going to fly. If they are made of common materials then they will soar. Look forward to the answers.

No platinum AFAIK, just ceramics, some sort of cheapish alloy, and a proprietary ink.

That is what I have read/heard as well. The core is made entirely of a ceramic made from beach sand, while both sides are coated with a propeitary ink. All ingrediates are available in abundance. What a concept

[pstarr]

i would think the bigger question is what are they made of? If it's another platinum deal like other fuel cells then it's not going to fly. If they are made of common materials then they will soar. Look forward to the answers.

No platinum AFAIK, just ceramics, some sort of cheapish alloy, and a proprietary ink.

That is what I have read/heard as well. The core is made entirely of a ceramic made from beach sand, while both sides are coated with a propeitary ink. All ingrediates are available in abundance. What a concept

Maybe propeitary is a secret word for platinum? You didn't mean proprietary?

[JJ]

test

[TheAntiDoomer]

i would think the bigger question is what are they made of? If it's another platinum deal like other fuel cells then it's not going to fly. If they are made of common materials then they will soar. Look forward to the answers.

No platinum AFAIK, just ceramics, some sort of cheapish alloy, and a proprietary ink.

That is what I have read/heard as well. The core is made entirely of a ceramic made from beach sand, while both sides are coated with a propeitary ink. All ingrediates are available in abundance. What a concept

Maybe propeitary is a secret word for platinum? You didn't mean proprietary?

Sorry Pee, the inventor specifically said absolutly no platinum or any other precious or rare metals are involved.

[pstarr]

Sorry Pee, the inventor specifically said absolutly no platinum or any other precious or rare metals are involved.

I see. I have been hoping for something like this for quite a while and I was excited and I wasn't thinking. It's probably the oxygen deficit from holding my breath sooo long.

[yesplease]

You sure it wasn't the Zyklon-B you seem so fond of?

[lper100km]

Bloom Box could be the magical fuel cell that saves the world

You’re not too sure about that, are you? Anything that has magic as an adjective has an air of desperation about it.

I see all the current interest in this product and I’m not sure why this one is any better than any other fuel cell although it is better than using elemental hydrogen. There’s at least 21 different types according to Wikipedia. Bloom has raised a lot of money – $400m – which may or may not mean something. There are some high profile users, which may or may not mean something. Did Google, Amazon, eBay etc but them or were they delivered as test stations? What about the others cell manufacturers?

On the other hand, there’s remarkably little hard information. For instance, what is the energy conversion efficiency? Is it more efficient to convert the inherent energy in the gas to electricity or will the gas generate more energy by burning it? The cell still consumes oxygen so must emit some other form of carbon/oxygen gaseous compound. What voltage is being delivered? AC or DC? Why is it even a consideration that people can manage something as complex as an electrical generator in their backyard? There’s this talk of trashing the electrical distribution grid. Fat chance. You’ll get a gas grid though.

Uses sand? What kind? There are many variations - check Wiki

All little bits of information, but nothing cohesive that any one can make an informed opinion on what this product is all about much less prognosticate about it's future.

[SeaGypsy]

i would think the bigger question is what are they made of? If it's another platinum deal like other fuel cells then it's not going to fly. If they are made of common materials then they will soar. Look forward to the answers.

No platinum AFAIK, just ceramics, some sort of cheapish alloy, and a proprietary ink.

I am a glassmaker by profession, I know a lot about sand/ silica. The highest grade silica in the world is mined in Cape York on the northernmost tip of Australia, it is 99.9%+ pure. There are many other sites around the world with 98% plus pure silica sands. To make a very pure silica wafer like in the bloom box, is not particularly difficult. Pyrex is the most pure silica glass made commonly, It has less than 1% residual flux and is over 98% pure silica. It is made by melting silica powder at almost double the temperature of flux glass (the stuff we use for most things glass is used for). From the appearance of Bloom's wafer, it may be the next level of purity up from Pyrex glass, which does require some flux to allow translucense. As translucense appears not to be necessary, I am guessing this is what the wafers are.
If indeed these people are being honest, this will change the world dramaticly, there is no shortage of 98% pure silica or of common metals in the amounts it appears would be required for this system. The savings in terms of grid manufacture and maintenance would easily displace this use.
In 1984 my high school paid $15,000 for an IBM computer with a 256 meg memory that one had to communicate in code with. A teachers wage back then was $30,000.
I bought a new laptop a few weeks ago with 260 gig memory for a weeks pay.
That's not rocket science.

[TheAntiDoomer]

^good post seagypsey thanks!

What is the Bloom Box? Does it work? Bloom Energy Could Change the World

http://blog.mapawatt.com/2010/02/20/wha ... the-world/

What are the Challenges of the Bloom Box?

Sridhar claims to have found an affordable way to manufacture his technology. Traditional fuel cells require the use of rare-earth metals such as platinum or palladium for the catalyst that helps drive the reaction. In order to make his system affordable and prolific, he must come up with a new type of catalyst that is abundant and affordable.

If Sridhar has found the “holy grail” of energy storage and generation, how will he keep it from being duplicated by anyone and every one in the world? Hopefully, Bloom has patents on the technology. I have to believe that Doerr would not have made such a large investment in the company if he didn’t believe they would be able to capitalize on the technology at least for a long enough period of time to make his investment worthwhile.

In a Nutshell?

I am optimistic. There appears to be a great mind behind the technology and it has been peer-reviewed by great minds in the technology investment industry. Not only was this peer-review positive, one of the greatest technology investors has backed up his review with a gargantuan investment of funds and resources.

[kublikhan]

There are some high profile users, which may or may not mean something. Did Google, Amazon, eBay etc but them or were they delivered as test stations? What about the others cell manufacturers?

On the other hand, there’s remarkably little hard information. For instance, what is the energy conversion efficiency? Is it more efficient to convert the inherent energy in the gas to electricity or will the gas generate more energy by burning it?

The customers bought them, they were not test units. However California provided substantial subsidies so they only had to pay half price for the units. As it stands now, these units are expensive, more expensive than solar. However they claim they can dramatically reduce the cost with economies of scale. They claim this unit can produce twice as much electricity as burning the equivalent amount of natural gas in a traditional natural gas power plant.

In order to make his system affordable and prolific, he must come up with a new type of catalyst that is abundant and affordable.

Ummm, hasn't this been the problem with fuel cells for decades, rare and expensive catalysts? So he's not using rare-earth metals but is using some other secret and expensive catalyst. Then this is not really the revolutionary breakthrough in fuel cells that we needed to make them affordable and mass produced.

[TheDude]

There’s this talk of trashing the electrical distribution grid. Fat chance. You’ll get a gas grid though.

What would happen to NG prices with widespread implementation, too? Presumably residential customers would still need gas for heating and some additional for the BBs, but the power generation sector would find itself kneecapped. I don't think they'll take something like that lying down.

But at any rate this could just be more of the same old euphoria. Is K.R. Sridhar’s 'magic box' ready for prime time? - Fortune Brainstorm Tech

Google told Fortune that it has a 400 kilowatt installation from Bloom at its headquarters in Mountain View, California. But the real test, analysts say, is whether Google feels confident enough to use Bloom boxes to power its vast server farms upon which its business depends.

“I definitely think Bloom is over-hyped,” says Jacob Grose, senior analyst at Lux Research, which specializes in emerging technologies, though he stresses that he hasn’t seen the soon-to-be-unveiled Bloom box. “What Bloom offers does not seem to be unique – other fuel-cell companies are doing very similar things. The real question is whether Bloom has unlocked the secret of how to make these things cheap, and I’m very skeptical of that.”

One company that Grose points to as offering a similar product – sans the media circus – is Fuel Cell Energy, Inc., a small firm based in Danbury, Connecticut that went public in 1992 and has over 60 fuel-cell installations worldwide at companies ranging from Pepperidge Farm to Westin Hotels. Like Bloom, it also hasn’t figured out how to make money, losing $71 million last year on revenues of $88 million.

Thanks for the 10 things link, TAD.

[shortonsense]

By the way shorty, the $100,000 dollar hydrogen setup I quote is only the residential version.

Thats the version this guy built.

[shortonsense]

15 years of supply arriving last month.

And the logic you choose completely fails because there is no measure of what the production rate of those 15 years of resource will be.

Absolutely true. I calculated it EXACTLY the same way the average Doomer does...I took the amount and divided by consumption.

Doomers proclaiming every time someone finds a billion barrels of oil that "its only 12 days of oil!!" almost never are chided for such a ridiculous calculation...I assumed it was just as much of a math calculation as the average Doomer could understand. Present company such as yourself obviously excluded.

It IS about flow rates and production capability, you just haven't been hit upside the head with it yet..not quite....but it's coming.

Hey..I'm with ya, I say we go on a rampage against ignorant Doomer calculations straight across the board. Start a thread and count me in!

[TheAntiDoomer]

In order to make his system affordable and prolific, he must come up with a new type of catalyst that is abundant and affordable.

Ummm, hasn't this been the problem with fuel cells for decades, rare and expensive catalysts? So he's not using rare-earth metals but is using some other secret and expensive catalyst. Then this is not really the revolutionary breakthrough in fuel cells that we needed to make them affordable and mass produced.[/quote]

Kub, Nowhere have I read has he said that the catalyst is expensive, in fact he hinted several times that it is plentiful. Of course this part he's going to keep somewhat secret, you don't expect him to give away his secret sauce???

[TheAntiDoomer]

What would happen to NG prices with widespread implementation, too? Presumably residential customers would still need gas for heating and some additional for the BBs, but the power generation sector would find itself kneecapped. I don't think they'll take something like that lying down.

Dude, this question was answered in the report. He said they see the utilities as customers not rivals. So the electrical distributors will buy bloom boxes, distribute then in neighborhoods and sell the electricity to customers.