Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby Graeme » Mon 22 Dec 2014, 19:16:45

Well then, you can't regard it as "bogus" until the assessment is done! Dah.
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe. H. G. Wells.
Fatih Birol's motto: leave oil before it leaves us.
User avatar
Graeme
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 13258
Joined: Fri 04 Mar 2005, 04:00:00
Location: New Zealand

Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby Graeme » Mon 22 Dec 2014, 19:58:09

Regardless of what you say, biogas is going to be used as a source of energy in future. There is nothing you can do about it. I endorse the conclusions, and I'm also providing information:

The World Bioenergy Association from Stockholm, Sweden issued a fact sheet titled Biogas – An Important Energy Source, in which they state that 25% of global natural gas demand or 6% of global primary energy use could be met with biogas.
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe. H. G. Wells.
Fatih Birol's motto: leave oil before it leaves us.
User avatar
Graeme
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 13258
Joined: Fri 04 Mar 2005, 04:00:00
Location: New Zealand

Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby Tanada » Tue 23 Dec 2014, 07:31:07

Peak Oil, how a village in Austria converted to Biomass and saved themselves.

http://youtu.be/5ltymAhoNsw
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
User avatar
Tanada
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 17048
Joined: Thu 28 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Location: South West shore Lake Erie, OH, USA

Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby isgota » Tue 23 Dec 2014, 11:25:36

pstarr wrote:Graeme, haven't I already lectured you on the fallacy of "renewable" biogas?

Conversion of landfills, sewage, farm waste and food waste into fuel is at best a waste-mitigation strategy, a way to avoid garbage disposal costs. The energy collection/processing btus are greater than output btus. Zero energy returned.

More carbon is released into the atmosphere than before. And no energy remains to drive Mom, Dad, Biff, and Babs on their shopping trips to the Mall. It is a GREEN LOSER. :x


Any sources? Because a quick "biogas EROEI" search yields this paper showing exactly the opposite.
User avatar
isgota
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 62
Joined: Sat 31 May 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Spain

Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby Graeme » Tue 23 Dec 2014, 16:31:43

No they don't. Gas is better than oil and coal. Ideally we shouldn't be using any FF at all. But until solar is universally cheaper than gas sometimes in next decade, gas is the lesser "evil".

However, I've just seen this as an application for biogas:

Equipment Profile: Biogas-powered Fuel Cells

Biogas-powered fuel cells hold great promise for their ability to transform waste streams directly into electricity, with zero emissions. Far from new technology, dating back to 1839, fuel cells are becoming one of the popular methods of generating cleaner energy not only for automobiles and space craft, but also for residential, commercial and industrial sites. Today, companies such as AT&T, Coca-Cola Co., Apple and The Kroger Co. are utilizing biogas-powered fuel cells to generate energy for television studios, data hubs, distribution centers and administration offices.

Tony Leo, vice president of application engineering and new technology development of FuelCell Energy, says the top benefit of biogas-powered fuel cells is the ability to transform a waste stream directly into electricity to offset grid purchases. Even for facilities that are flaring biogas for electricity or powering a combustion-engine generator, fuel cells produce more electricity per unit of biogas with zero emissions, he says.

In addition to utilizing waste for energy, Leo says other benefits include heat generation and self-sufficiency. The exhaust of a fuel cell is roughly 750 degrees Fahrenheit, and can be fed back into a digester to maintain heat or support faster material breakdown. Additionally, the heat may be used for hot water systems, absorption chilling systems or sold to neighboring facilities. Fuel cells enable a facility to become energy self-sufficient, Leo says. “We like to describe this as building one’s own micro-grid, where in instances the grid goes down, you can keep your facility operational.”


biomassmagazine

Renewable Biogas

Our Direct FuelCell® (DFC®) power plants efficiently convert hydrogen and oxygen into ultra-clean electricity and usable high quality heat suitable for making steam. The hydrogen is obtained from a fuel source such as renewable biogas, and is reformed within the fuel cell itself. This unique internal reforming technology provides fuel flexibility, for DFC power plants, including on-site renewable biogas or directed biogas generated at a distant location.


fuelcellenergy
Last edited by Graeme on Tue 23 Dec 2014, 17:14:42, edited 2 times in total.
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe. H. G. Wells.
Fatih Birol's motto: leave oil before it leaves us.
User avatar
Graeme
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 13258
Joined: Fri 04 Mar 2005, 04:00:00
Location: New Zealand

Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby Graeme » Tue 23 Dec 2014, 17:18:38

What do you think of fuel cells powered by biogas?
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe. H. G. Wells.
Fatih Birol's motto: leave oil before it leaves us.
User avatar
Graeme
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 13258
Joined: Fri 04 Mar 2005, 04:00:00
Location: New Zealand

Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby Graeme » Tue 23 Dec 2014, 17:33:27

From your link:

Taking the Overijssel province in the Netherlands as a case study, we showed that 66.01 PJ can be contributed from by-products, with an additional 3.34 TJ coming from more conventional pasturelands. The NEG from biogas can potentially take care of Overijssel’s entire renewable energy target for the year 2030. When producing bioenergy from by-products, the EROEI is quite high (7e17), indicating that there is a big potential for by-products to provide energy without compromising the ecological or agricultural functions of the landscapes
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe. H. G. Wells.
Fatih Birol's motto: leave oil before it leaves us.
User avatar
Graeme
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 13258
Joined: Fri 04 Mar 2005, 04:00:00
Location: New Zealand

Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby Graeme » Tue 23 Dec 2014, 18:23:23

Here are their conclusions:

Using the EROEI index together with the NEG (a NEG-EROEI approach) further adds scientific rigour to the energy inputeoutput analysis given room for a broader spectrum
of analysis for improvement of the efficiency of energy production chains as done by this study (energy sources on one hand and energy production technologies on the other hand).
This study further underlines the importance of the NEG EROEI approach as a valuable impact assessment indicator and tool, as was discussed in a separate publication [69]. Most
of the coefficients and the methodology in general can be easily adapted beyond the province of Overijssel, for the Netherlands as a whole and the EU as long as the basic agricultural practices and energy conversion technologies are the same.
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe. H. G. Wells.
Fatih Birol's motto: leave oil before it leaves us.
User avatar
Graeme
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 13258
Joined: Fri 04 Mar 2005, 04:00:00
Location: New Zealand

Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby Ulenspiegel » Tue 23 Dec 2014, 18:28:35

isgota wrote:Any sources? Because a quick "biogas EROEI" search yields this paper showing exactly the opposite.


I have followed the discussion in Germany and Austria, and there the argument indeed is that methane from waste or direct thermal usage of waste only provides the energy that is now consumed for waste processing, the overall effect is near zero.

Only very few countries, e.g. Sweden and very likely Austria, can provide a significant percentage of primary energy demand with biomass, most countries are very limited.
Ulenspiegel
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 260
Joined: Thu 04 Jul 2013, 03:15:29

Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby Graeme » Tue 23 Dec 2014, 19:05:52

FuelCell Energy Reports Fourth Quarter and Fiscal Year 2014 Results and Business Highlights

Continued gross margin expansion supported by cost reductions and sales mix

Record 70 megawatts of production sold during the year

Utility sale of 3.4 megawatt high efficiency power plant for gas pipeline application

Six fuel cell modules totaling 8.4 megawatts sold to POSCO Energy to meet Asian demand

Multiple projects selected as Finalists for consideration under utility RFP for Long Island, New York


DANBURY, Conn., Dec. 15, 2014 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) -- FuelCell Energy, Inc. (Nasdaq:FCEL), a global leader in the design, manufacture, operation and service of ultra-clean, efficient and reliable fuel cell power plants, today reported results for its fourth quarter and fiscal year ended October 31, 2014 along with an update on key business highlights.

Financial Results

FuelCell Energy (the Company) reported total revenues for the fourth quarter of 2014 of $54.4 million compared to $55.2 million for the fourth quarter of 2013.

Product sales for the fourth quarter of 2014 totaled $42.4 million, comprising $35.8 million of power plant revenue, fuel cell module and fuel cell kit sales, and $6.6 million of power plant component sales and site engineering and construction services. Product sales for the comparable prior year period totaled $36.2 million.

Service and license revenues for the fourth quarter of 2014 totaled $6.7 million. Service and license revenues totaled $15.4 million for the fourth quarter of 2013 or $5.2 million excluding $10.2 million of revenue recognized in conjunction with the execution of a revised multi-year service agreement with Asian partner POSCO Energy.

Advanced technologies contract revenue was $5.3 million for the fourth quarter of 2014 compared to $3.6 million for the prior year period.

The gross profit generated in the fourth quarter of 2014 totaled $6.0 million compared to $2.6 million in the fourth quarter of 2013. The fourth quarter 2014 gross margin was 10.9 percent compared to 4.7 percent for the prior year period. The current period gross margin of 10.9 percent reflects continued sequential margin expansion, improving from the 9.2 percent gross margin of the third quarter of 2014, and is a record gross margin since the Company began commercializing fuel cells. Margin expansion is reflective of a sales mix transitioning to a larger percentage of revenues from turn-key projects in the United States as well as lower product costs from sustained production at 70 megawatts annually combined with continued manufacturing efficiencies.


shareholder
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe. H. G. Wells.
Fatih Birol's motto: leave oil before it leaves us.
User avatar
Graeme
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 13258
Joined: Fri 04 Mar 2005, 04:00:00
Location: New Zealand

Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby Ulenspiegel » Wed 24 Dec 2014, 15:30:32

pstarr wrote:No one has responded to my though experiment? Okay, it is a bit challenging, intellectually puzzling, so let's add a hint: we collect biomass (actually human crap) at municipal waste-treatment plants. Yet we throw it all away making doody in our streams and beaches, instead of making our prius's be even more green! :-x What's with that?


Here I do not get you: The processing of human sewerage in municipal facilities is a very energy intensive process, the methane used for co-generation of electricity and heat covers more or less the demand, there is no real plus. As the facilities operate in a baseload mode, the on site consumption of the electricity makes perfect sense for me, but again, there is no net gain which could be used for cars, the demand is "only" reduced.

A different situation is found for other organic waste, e.g. farms have huge amounts of liquid manure which have to be stored as manuring is only allowed for some weeks a year but the liquid manure OTOH can usually be converted into methane with a good net energy gain. The energy density of liquid manure is low, therefore, a little bit planning is due in order to reduce transport costs.

Or organic waste from households or industry can be converted into methane or liquid fuel which of course can and is used to power vehicles.
Ulenspiegel
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 260
Joined: Thu 04 Jul 2013, 03:15:29

PreviousNext

Return to Energy Technology

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 18 guests