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THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby Graeme » Wed 10 Dec 2014, 17:17:33

Danish ministry announces biomass sustainability agreement

The Danish Ministry of Climate, Energy and Building recently posted a notice to its website announcing a new voluntary agreement formed with members of its domestic energy industry on sustainable biomass.

According to the notice, published Dec. 4, Dansk Energi and Dansk Fjernvarme entered into the sustainability agreement in response to Climate, Energy and Building Minister Rasmus Peterse’s request that only sustainably produced biomass be purchased.

The notice indicates biomass is expected to play an important role in Denmark’s energy and transportation industries. It also cites the ability store biomass and use it when needed as an obvious advantage when compared to other renewable resources. As a result, the government has predicted that the consumption of wood pellets and wood chips will increase in the future.

According to information released by Danish government, the agreement makes ambitious requirements for the entire biomass supply chain and requires that forests that supply biomass for energy production will be replanted.

A full copy of the announcement can be downloaded from the Ministry of Climate and Building website.


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Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby pstarr » Wed 10 Dec 2014, 19:06:27

Graeme wrote:See Reforestation thread for latest announcement by Indonesian government on their reforestation plan.
The plan stinks, and it is a band aide on global natural-capital liquidation. A mature tropical forest (capable of hosting endangered species) will take hundreds of years to re-appear. Cosmetic replanting is a joke, and is no excuse for past or future environmental/social depredations in the name of green biomass b#llsh@t.
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Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby Graeme » Mon 22 Dec 2014, 15:34:45

How Much Renewable Natural Gas Can Be Produced?

Renewable natural gas (RNG) is methane produced from biomass that is cleaned to pipeline quality standards and blended with fossil natural gas. RNG, also known as biomethane, is carbon-neutral and chemically identical to fossil natural gas allowing it to be blended without restriction. Renewable natural gas is produced from a variety of (mostly waste) resources including landfills, sewage, farm waste and food waste. Biomass energy crops could be cultivated for RNG production, but currently those resources tend to be used for liquid fuels.

The major benefits of RNG production are that it takes methane already naturally produced from waste and prevents it from going into the atmosphere as a potent greenhouse gas, instead turning it into a valuable carbon-neutral fuel. RNG also helps address energy security because it is a locally-produced fuel available in every community. RNG is also a universal fuel certified for use in existing infrastructure without technical issues and it can be used for heat, power and transportation.

A series of studies from government research agencies and industry in the last few years have found that anywhere from 5% to 20% of today’s natural gas demand could be met with RNG. These studies have attempted to quantify the resource by sector and region that are available for RNG production. The studies covered in this article do not include power to gas, nor synthetic natural gas which is produced from other fossil fuels such as coal.


Image

Conclusions

Though estimates vary for how much renewable natural gas can be produced, depending on how aggressively analysts calculate the resource base, and whether energy crops are included, there is a broad consensus that RNG can make a substantive and valuable contribution to global renewable energy production.

RNG offers multiple benefits. First, methane emissions from natural sources that would otherwise be going into the atmosphere as a potent greenhouse gas are converted into a valuable asset.

Second, RNG is a universal fuel that can be used for heat, power and transportation, meaning that it can be directed into sectors in greatest need of greenhouse gas emission reduction.


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Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 22 Dec 2014, 16:13:18

Graeme, haven't I already lectured you on the fallacy of "renewable" biogas?

Conversion of landfills, sewage, farm waste and food waste into fuel is at best a waste-mitigation strategy, a way to avoid garbage disposal costs. The energy collection/processing btus are greater than output btus. Zero energy returned.

More carbon is released into the atmosphere than before. And no energy remains to drive Mom, Dad, Biff, and Babs on their shopping trips to the Mall. It is a GREEN LOSER. :x
/sarc
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Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby Graeme » Mon 22 Dec 2014, 17:32:24

On the contrary, it's quite the opposite as explained in the article. It's a winner!
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Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 22 Dec 2014, 18:11:53

Graeme wrote:On the contrary, it's quite the opposite as explained in the article. It's a winner!
No Graeme, the net-energy analysis is lacking, not a minor oversight.
9. A rigorous economic and environmental life-cycle assessment is needed to determine the best pathway for biogas and biomass feedstocks.
So the study is bogus. It ignores the actual embodied energy cost to build/maintain the processing facilities. It only looks at the electricity needed to run the operations. Not the energy cost of building the operation. You know, EROEI. The methane output is tiny compared to the energy-cost to build the concrete/steel fermenters, paddles, pipeline collection system, compressors etc.

The scheme is a dream.
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Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby Graeme » Mon 22 Dec 2014, 18:16:45

Well then, you can't regard it as "bogus" until the assessment is done! Dah.
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Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 22 Dec 2014, 18:29:15

Graeme wrote:Well then, you can't regard it as "bogus" until the assessment is done! Dah.
I didn't mean to fool you Graeme, I promise. :razz:

But the lacking 'rigorous economic and environmental life-cycle assessment' is really quite beside-the-point, meaningless. What is needed is the all-important energy life-cycle assessment. There is none. There is no intention to create one. The study remains bogus.
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Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 22 Dec 2014, 18:35:07

Anyway, the study is funded by the National Petroleum Council. :shock: Those horrible lying cheating corrupt evil oil men couldn't possibly come up with a truthful report. /sarc
/sarc
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Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby Graeme » Mon 22 Dec 2014, 18:58:09

Regardless of what you say, biogas is going to be used as a source of energy in future. There is nothing you can do about it. I endorse the conclusions, and I'm also providing information:

The World Bioenergy Association from Stockholm, Sweden issued a fact sheet titled Biogas – An Important Energy Source, in which they state that 25% of global natural gas demand or 6% of global primary energy use could be met with biogas.
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Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 22 Dec 2014, 19:04:31

Graeme wrote:Regardless of what you say, biogas is going to be used as a source of energy in future. There is nothing you can do about it. I endorse the conclusions, and I'm also providing information:

The World Bioenergy Association from Stockholm, Sweden issued a fact sheet titled Biogas – An Important Energy Source, in which they state that 25% of global natural gas demand or 6% of global primary energy use could be met with biogas.

So I take that as a confirmation of the National Petroleum Council study?
I am shocked! I tell you . . . shocked :?
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Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby Tanada » Tue 23 Dec 2014, 06:31:07

Peak Oil, how a village in Austria converted to Biomass and saved themselves.

http://youtu.be/5ltymAhoNsw
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby isgota » Tue 23 Dec 2014, 10:25:36

pstarr wrote:Graeme, haven't I already lectured you on the fallacy of "renewable" biogas?

Conversion of landfills, sewage, farm waste and food waste into fuel is at best a waste-mitigation strategy, a way to avoid garbage disposal costs. The energy collection/processing btus are greater than output btus. Zero energy returned.

More carbon is released into the atmosphere than before. And no energy remains to drive Mom, Dad, Biff, and Babs on their shopping trips to the Mall. It is a GREEN LOSER. :x


Any sources? Because a quick "biogas EROEI" search yields this paper showing exactly the opposite.
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Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 23 Dec 2014, 11:34:11

isgota wrote:
pstarr wrote:Graeme, haven't I already lectured you on the fallacy of "renewable" biogas?

Conversion of landfills, sewage, farm waste and food waste into fuel is at best a waste-mitigation strategy, a way to avoid garbage disposal costs. The energy collection/processing btus are greater than output btus. Zero energy returned.

More carbon is released into the atmosphere than before. And no energy remains to drive Mom, Dad, Biff, and Babs on their shopping trips to the Mall. It is a GREEN LOSER. :x


Any sources? Because a quick "biogas EROEI" search yields this paper showing exactly the opposite.
Same problem with the paper. The paper sited is very detailed explaining the energy costs for processing, transporting, and digesting various farm products (grasses, residue, and manure) but fails to include the very important cost of methane collection, compression, and distribution. Methane is not like diesel. You can not just simply pour it into a red jerry can, or a big shiny fuel truck. One must build the digester/pipeline infrastructure and compressing system.

The study is correct in one simple aspect; there is plenty of agriculture waste, especially manure, that requires disposal. Disposal by digestion makes sense, it is a simple perfected methodology that is mostly self-operational . . . the stuff rots and gives off stinky gas. However the gas must be trapped.

Here's a though experiment. We already collect animal manure in vast quantities and convert it into methane. The collection/transport exists, is maintained. The methane digestors are operational, have been for generations, the energy-cost (in expensive concrete/steel) amortized decades ago. No need to study or quantify the EROEI for the resulting methane because it is FREE. Yet we continue to power the digestors with expensive fossil-fuel electricity. WHY? We continue to flare off the methane daily. WHY? We don't use the methane to run our cars. WHY?

We must be NUTZ. :? Do we hate the environment? Have the evil oil companies poisoned our minds? Should we rise up and destroy the evil oil companies? Graeme, help me here. Do they control our minds? :idea:
/sarc
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Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby Graeme » Tue 23 Dec 2014, 15:31:43

No they don't. Gas is better than oil and coal. Ideally we shouldn't be using any FF at all. But until solar is universally cheaper than gas sometimes in next decade, gas is the lesser "evil".

However, I've just seen this as an application for biogas:

Equipment Profile: Biogas-powered Fuel Cells

Biogas-powered fuel cells hold great promise for their ability to transform waste streams directly into electricity, with zero emissions. Far from new technology, dating back to 1839, fuel cells are becoming one of the popular methods of generating cleaner energy not only for automobiles and space craft, but also for residential, commercial and industrial sites. Today, companies such as AT&T, Coca-Cola Co., Apple and The Kroger Co. are utilizing biogas-powered fuel cells to generate energy for television studios, data hubs, distribution centers and administration offices.

Tony Leo, vice president of application engineering and new technology development of FuelCell Energy, says the top benefit of biogas-powered fuel cells is the ability to transform a waste stream directly into electricity to offset grid purchases. Even for facilities that are flaring biogas for electricity or powering a combustion-engine generator, fuel cells produce more electricity per unit of biogas with zero emissions, he says.

In addition to utilizing waste for energy, Leo says other benefits include heat generation and self-sufficiency. The exhaust of a fuel cell is roughly 750 degrees Fahrenheit, and can be fed back into a digester to maintain heat or support faster material breakdown. Additionally, the heat may be used for hot water systems, absorption chilling systems or sold to neighboring facilities. Fuel cells enable a facility to become energy self-sufficient, Leo says. “We like to describe this as building one’s own micro-grid, where in instances the grid goes down, you can keep your facility operational.”


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Renewable Biogas

Our Direct FuelCell® (DFC®) power plants efficiently convert hydrogen and oxygen into ultra-clean electricity and usable high quality heat suitable for making steam. The hydrogen is obtained from a fuel source such as renewable biogas, and is reformed within the fuel cell itself. This unique internal reforming technology provides fuel flexibility, for DFC power plants, including on-site renewable biogas or directed biogas generated at a distant location.


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Last edited by Graeme on Tue 23 Dec 2014, 16:14:42, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 23 Dec 2014, 16:10:49

Graeme wrote:No they don't. Gas is better than oil and coal. Ideally we shouldn't be using any FF at all. But until solar is universally cheaper than gas sometimes in next decade, gas is the lesser "evil".
The gas described in those papers is equally "evil" because of the additional (ie MORE) fossil-fuels used to produce the gas.

After all these years Graeme, do you still honestly claim not to understand EROEI? Please do tell.
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Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby Graeme » Tue 23 Dec 2014, 16:18:38

What do you think of fuel cells powered by biogas?
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Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 23 Dec 2014, 16:23:22

--Haven't responded to my critique of the two studies you posted (without comment in violation of the COC).
--Haven't answered my question regarding EROEI.
/sarc
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Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby Graeme » Tue 23 Dec 2014, 16:33:27

From your link:

Taking the Overijssel province in the Netherlands as a case study, we showed that 66.01 PJ can be contributed from by-products, with an additional 3.34 TJ coming from more conventional pasturelands. The NEG from biogas can potentially take care of Overijssel’s entire renewable energy target for the year 2030. When producing bioenergy from by-products, the EROEI is quite high (7e17), indicating that there is a big potential for by-products to provide energy without compromising the ecological or agricultural functions of the landscapes
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Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 23 Dec 2014, 16:42:33

Graeme wrote:From your link:

Taking the Overijssel province in the Netherlands as a case study, we showed that 66.01 PJ can be contributed from by-products, with an additional 3.34 TJ coming from more conventional pasturelands. The NEG from biogas can potentially take care of Overijssel’s entire renewable energy target for the year 2030. When producing bioenergy from by-products, the EROEI is quite high (7e17), indicating that there is a big potential for by-products to provide energy without compromising the ecological or agricultural functions of the landscapes
But the EROEI numbers are bogus because they don't account for collecting the biogas. Either natural gas pipelines would have to be extended, or compressors installed at each dairy barn, every farm town. This is bogus. Bogus. Junk analysis. No response of any use from you. Are you a bot Graeme?
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