THE Biofuel Thread pt 3 (merged)

[vtsnowedin]

Some interesting reading there. His ranking is fine for personal vehicles but he doesn't mention heavy trucks and trains. You can electrifiy rail lines of course at enormous costs but battery powered tractor trailor units just do not work. Being able to zip down to the mall in your new chevota volt is fine but if the shelves are bare because the truck didn't get there it will be pointless.

[yesplease]

HD diesels can be run off of refined biogas/biomethane just like they can be run off of propane, although at that point they technically aren't diesels anymore. There's also waste veggie oil. which could supply about a third of all the fuel trucking uses, probably more if rigs had better aerodynamics than bricks.

[3aidlillahi]

HD diesels can be run off of refined biogas/biomethane just like they can be run off of propane, although at that point they technically aren't diesels anymore. There's also waste veggie oil. which could supply about a third of all the fuel trucking uses, probably more if rigs had better aerodynamics than bricks.

From what I've read, the larger vehicles (SUV's and up) are impacted less by drag than smaller vehicles.

One of the interesting things I found out during my fluids class this semester on drag is that cyclists have a larger coefficient of drag (upon which drag is proportional) than Hummers and SUVs .

I'm sure you could work through the math but it'd be pretty pointless to show that larger vehicles are impacted less by drag. Look at their designs. They don't have much room for improvement. You can't be sleek and stylish when hauling several tons worth of goods. Otherwise, you'd lose the amount of goods you can carry which would increase the number of miles needed to be driven.

[outcast]

This guy is an idiot. In most places in the world hydro is tapped out, plus wind and solar are both low density and very intermittent.


EDIT: On top of all that aren't wind farms a hazard for birds?

[yesplease]

From what I've read, the larger vehicles (SUV's and up) are impacted less by drag than smaller vehicles.

One of the interesting things I found out during my fluids class this semester on drag is that cyclists have a larger coefficient of drag (upon which drag is proportional) than Hummers and SUVs .

Depends on the speeds really, but since most trucking is at ~65-80mph on the highways and they have Cds around .8, there are definitely improvements to be made. Here's a good read.

Reduced fuel consumption for heavy vehicles can be achieved by altering truck shapes to decrease the aerodynamic resistance (drag). It is conceivable that present day truck drag coefficients can be reduced by as much as 50%, which represents a fuel savings of three billion gallons of diesel fuel per year of the roughly 10 billion gallons now consumed for truck highway travel at speeds of 60 mph.

I'm sure you could work through the math but it'd be pretty pointless to show that larger vehicles are impacted less by drag. Look at their designs. They don't have much room for improvement. You can't be sleek and stylish when hauling several tons worth of goods. Otherwise, you'd lose the amount of goods you can carry which would increase the number of miles needed to be driven.

They have tons of room for improvement. The question is whether or not people are willing to improve them. Adding aero improvments to rigs would not reduce carrying capacity in the least. The most it would do would be to increase the time spent loading/unloading by maybe 10-15 minutes since a dockworker would have to move a boat tail out of the way for loading/unloading.

[vtsnowedin]

HD diesels can be run off of refined biogas/biomethane just like they can be run off of propane, although at that point they technically aren't diesels anymore. There's also waste veggie oil. which could supply about a third of all the fuel trucking uses, probably more if rigs had better aerodynamics than bricks.

Lets see, a typical TT rig has 200 gallons of fuel tanks and gets 4 mpg. 5% of traffic is heavy trucks so that would be about 2 million trucks driving 500 miles a day 250 days a year about 28 billion gallons a year. wow thats a lot of french fry oil? I don't think there are that many Burger kings out there.

[yesplease]

Lets see, a typical TT rig has 200 gallons of fuel tanks and gets 4 mpg. 5% of traffic is heavy trucks so that would be about 2 million trucks driving 500 miles a day 250 days a year about 28 billion gallons a year. wow thats a lot of french fry oil? I don't think there are that many Burger kings out there.

It is conceivable that present day truck drag coefficients can be reduced by as much as 50%, which represents a fuel savings of three billion gallons of diesel fuel per year of the roughly 10 billion gallons now consumed for truck highway travel at speeds of 60 mph.

As of 2000[update], the United States was producing in excess of 11 billion liters (2.9 billion U.S. gallons) of waste vegetable oil annually, mainly from industrial deep fryers in potato processing plants, snack food factories and fast food restaurants.

That's the problem w/ only using Burger King as a source of oil and inflating the consumption of tractor trailers. You won't have enough of something you can't possibly use that much of.

[frankthetank]

No they don't.

edit: Only one that works is hydro. Wind and sun are so reliant on location (windy spots, sunny spots) that they can't possibly even come NEAR competing with nuclear. Nuclear is the only thing that will come near to "saving" us. Coal should be used to heat homes Beats burning down the forests.

[yesplease]

Yes they do.

[the48thronin]

HD diesels can be run off of refined biogas/biomethane just like they can be run off of propane, although at that point they technically aren't diesels anymore. There's also waste veggie oil. which could supply about a third of all the fuel trucking uses, probably more if rigs had better aerodynamics than bricks.

Lets see, a typical TT rig has 200 gallons of fuel tanks and gets 4 mpg. 5% of traffic is heavy trucks so that would be about 2 million trucks driving 500 miles a day 250 days a year about 28 billion gallons a year. wow thats a lot of french fry oil? I don't think there are that many Burger kings out there.

Typical tractor trailer rig. 300 gallons of fuel capacity 500 HP
80,000 pound gross weight loaded max (and will be as close as can be to that)

A typical 2002 truck and trailer got 7 MPG, after 2007 that dropped to 5.5 but it is slowly rising.

The aero coefficiency of trucks has actually been a major part of truck model changes. From the peterbilt 387 to the kenworth 660 to the freightliner century etc.

Trailer drag is being adjusted DOWN by add ons like the airtabs I have ( www.airtab.com ) and the below the floor extenders ( I use belly boxes to the same effect).

There are hot selling snake oil engine add ons, and fuel additives everywhere.

My own average for the last 300,000 miles is 7.5 but I have friends over 8 also.

super wide super single tires, also are increasing fuel mileage.

Battery hybrid trucks are just now coming into the market as test beds. Electric lines over long haul roadways are certainly feasible to eliminate even the hybrid and go to total electric. Compare the costs and invest in the best alternatives.

[vtsnowedin]

Lets see, a typical TT rig has 200 gallons of fuel tanks and gets 4 mpg. 5% of traffic is heavy trucks so that would be about 2 million trucks driving 500 miles a day 250 days a year about 28 billion gallons a year. wow thats a lot of french fry oil? I don't think there are that many Burger kings out there.

It is conceivable that present day truck drag coefficients can be reduced by as much as 50%, which represents a fuel savings of three billion gallons of diesel fuel per year of the roughly 10 billion gallons now consumed for truck highway travel at speeds of 60 mph.

As of 2000[update], the United States was producing in excess of 11 billion liters (2.9 billion U.S. gallons) of waste vegetable oil annually, mainly from industrial deep fryers in potato processing plants, snack food factories and fast food restaurants.

That's the problem w/ only using Burger King as a source of oil and inflating the consumption of tractor trailers. You won't have enough of something you can't possibly use that much of.

Actually the 28 billion gallons was the actual used in 2006 from us gov. statistic charts. Thats 106 billion liters so a third of that would be 35 billion liters minus your 11 if that was available ,which it is not ,and you are still quite a bit short. And what are you going to do about the other 2/3s?

[yesplease]

Actually the 28 billion gallons was the actuall used in 2006 from us gov. statistic charts.

Source? The only thing I can find is that all U.S. diesel production is 28 billion gallons/year, but since there are quite a few users besides OTR rigs we can't (seriously) think that they use all 28 billion gallons. According to the researchers from Nasa, LLNL, and a few Unis, OTR rigs use about 10 billion gallons per year.

Thats 106 billion liters so a third of that would be 35 billion liters minus your 11 if that was available ,which it is not ,and you are still quite a bit short. And what are you going to do about the other 2/3s?

That's 10 billion gallons per year used by OTR rigs according to the paper I linked above, so WVO could satisfy about a third of current OTR consumption and more w/ aero improvements. As for the rest...

HD diesels can be run off of refined biogas/biomethane just like they can be run off of propane

[vtsnowedin]

Table 4-14: Combination Truck Fuel Consumption and Travela
Excel | CSV

1965 1970 1975 1980 1985 1990 1991 1992 1993 1994 1995 1996 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006
Number registered (thousands) 787 905 1,131 1,417 1,403 1,709 1,691 1,675 1,680 1,682 1,696 1,747 1,790 1,997 2,029 2,097 2,154 2,277 1,908 2,010 2,087 2,170
Vehicle-miles traveled (millions) 31,700 35,100 46,700 68,700 78,100 94,300 96,600 99,500 103,100 108,900 115,500 118,899 124,584 128,359 132,384 135,020 136,584 138,737 140,160 142,370 (R) 144,028 142,706
Fuel consumed (million gallons) 6,658 7,348 9,177 13,037 14,005 16,133 16,809 17,216 17,748 18,653 19,777 20,193 20,302 25,158 24,537 25,666 25,512 26,480 23,815 24,191 (R) 27,689 28,075
Average miles traveled per vehicle (thousands) 40.3 38.8 41.3 48.5 55.7 55.2 57.1 59.4 61.4 64.8 68.1 68.1 69.6 64.3 65.3 64.4 63.4 60.9 73.4 70.8 (R) 69.0 65.8
Average miles traveled per gallon 4.8 4.8 5.1 5.3 5.6 5.8 5.7 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.9 6.1 5.1 5.4 5.3 5.4 5.2 5.9 5.9 (R) 5.2 5.1
Average fuel consumed per vehicle (gallons) 8,465 8,119 8,116 9,201 9,980 9,441 9,938 10,276 10,562 11,093 11,663 11,561 11,342 12,596 12,096 12,241 11,843 11,631 12,479 12,033.3 (R) 13,269 12,940

KEY: R = revised.

a Beginning in 1998, the Federal Highway Administration (FHWA) used the Census Bureau's 1997 Vehicle Inventory and Use Survey (VIUS) for its baseline estimate of combination trucks. Prior to 1998, the FHWA used the Census Bureau's 1992 Transportation Inventory and Use Survey (TIUS) for its baseline estimates. Therefore, post-1997 data may not be comparable to 1997 and earlier years.

SOURCES

1965-94: U.S. Department of Transportation, Federal Highway Administration, Highway Statistics Summary to 1995, FHWA-PL-97-009 (Washington, DC: July 1997), table VM-201A.

1995-2006: Ibid., Highway Statistics (Washington, DC: Annual issues), table VM-1.

[yesplease]

Well there ya go then, 28 billion gallons, so WVO could supply about 10% of that currently, and ~15% of it if rigs had decent aero. I'm pretty sure that's more than enough since either way the majority would still need to come from biogas/biomethane. All the WVO/biodiesel is needed for is pilot ignition.

[vtsnowedin]

HD diesels can be run off of refined biogas/biomethane just like they can be run off of propane, although at that point they technically aren't diesels anymore. There's also waste veggie oil. which could supply about a third of all the fuel trucking uses, probably more if rigs had better aerodynamics than bricks.

You are a nogo at this station. You said one third from veggie oil. You are wrong. Admit it. Then go to your Biogas station and fill your truck up. When you have corrected yourself at this station return and try again.

[yesplease]

HD diesels can be run off of refined biogas/biomethane just like they can be run off of propane, although at that point they technically aren't diesels anymore. There's also waste veggie oil. which could supply about a third of all the fuel trucking uses, probably more if rigs had better aerodynamics than bricks.

You are a nogo at this station. You said one third from veggie oil. You are wrong. Admit it.

I just did. Tell me that at the very least you can read?

Well there ya go then, 28 billion gallons, so WVO could supply about 10% of that currently, and ~15% of it if rigs had decent aero. I'm pretty sure that's more than enough since either way the majority would still need to come from biogas/biomethane. All the WVO/biodiesel is needed for is pilot ignition.

[vtsnowedin]

Well there ya go then, 28 billion gallons, so WVO could supply about 10% of that currently, and ~15% of it if rigs had decent aero. I'm pretty sure that's more than enough since either way the majority would still need to come from biogas/biomethane. All the WVO/biodiesel is needed for is pilot ignition.

That does not sound like reality has set in to me but if that is what you meant Ok .
Now what are you going to ferment to get the biogas and how are you going to get it to the truck stops?

[yesplease]

Well there ya go then, 28 billion gallons, so WVO could supply about 10% of that currently, and ~15% of it if rigs had decent aero. I'm pretty sure that's more than enough since either way the majority would still need to come from biogas/biomethane. All the WVO/biodiesel is needed for is pilot ignition.

That does not sound like reality has set in to me but if that is what you meant Ok .

Uh, hello, reality check on isle three. It doesn't sound like anything, it's something ya read, not heard!

Now what are you going to ferment to get the biogas and how are you going to get it to the truck stops?

You probably won't ferment anything, at least if ya want decent yields, and it's going to get to truck stops the same way CNG/LPG gets to filling stations or diesel gets to trucks stops depending on the end product. There are also a couple ways to go, synthetic diesel or biogas/methane, and IIRC the yield in terms of energy per ton of msw for biogas is higher but naturally a liquid fuel is easier to deal w/ since we already have the infrastructure. That said, compression might reduce any advantage so synthetic diesel might be the way to go.

[vtsnowedin]

The last time I checked there were zero CNG filling stations around here and the only trucks running on LP were the gas companys. Also several biodiesel plants planned to use waste veggie oil or animal fats are on hold due to a shortage of feed stocks. I won't make any plans that rely on the next load of wheaties coming to Walmart in a CNC/ biodiesel truck. I would get very hungry before it arrives. They may get there eventually but I think biodiesel from algae oil will come in faster and not require refitting the distribtion system.

[kublikhan]

A typical 2002 truck and trailer got 7 MPG, after 2007 that dropped to 5.5 but it is slowly rising.
The aero coefficiency of trucks has actually been a major part of truck model changes. From the peterbilt 387 to the kenworth 660 to the freightliner century etc.
Trailer drag is being adjusted DOWN by add ons like the airtabs I have ( www.airtab.com ) and the below the floor extenders ( I use belly boxes to the same effect).
My own average for the last 300,000 miles is 7.5 but I have friends over 8 also.
super wide super single tires, also are increasing fuel mileage.

What kind of mileage did you get before you added the airtabs? The video on their website said they guarantee at least a 4% increase in fuel efficiency. Did your results confirm that? Why the hell did MPG drop from 7 to 5.5 between 2002 and 2007? Bigger trucks? Faster speeds?