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THE Biodiversity thread Pt. 2(merged)

Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby dohboi » Sat 16 May 2015, 09:01:33

Newfie wrote:
I dislike blaming "OTHERS"


Just to point out, I put myself squarely in the top 20% who are using 80%+ of the world's resources. So that's not quite blaming 'others.' Just pointing out that some have more blame than do other people.

If you are totally allergic to ever placing any blame on anyone for anything, that's great.

I have a funny feeling that you do not apply this principle consistently, though.

Meanwhile, back on the theme of the thread:

http://www.vox.com/2015/5/15/8612113/tr ... ate-change

The awful truth about climate change no one wants to admit

There has always been an odd tenor to discussions among climate scientists, policy wonks, and politicians, a passive-aggressive quality, and I think it can be traced to the fact that everyone involved has to dance around the obvious truth, at risk of losing their status and influence.

The obvious truth about global warming is this:

barring miracles, humanity is in for some awful shit.

Here is a plotting of dozens of climate modeling scenarios out to 2100, from the IPCC:
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 16 May 2015, 09:08:27

Truly great post showing just how hopeless the situation is AP. Not mentioned was the state of the ocean, big possibility of pandemic other existential threats. We are pass the point of no return. A huge die-off is inevitable. The climate, land air and sea are now at such as state that die-off is imminent. When exactly? Certainly appears that huge die-off with the next 35 years or before 2050. Ability to maintain anywhere near current population size and our current modern civilization is doomed. As modern civilization wanes so will modern medicine and modern forms of transportation to transport vital goods. So any objective and thorough analysis cannot deny this reality. Thank you so much for this information.
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby Apneaman » Sat 16 May 2015, 11:11:06

Your welcome onlooker, but all the credit goes to Robert Callaghan (The other crazy Doomer Canuck) who has been putting informative lists together for a number of years. I pity the poor newbie who runs into one of Roberts lists when just starting out ;)
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 16 May 2015, 11:32:29

haha, so true. I for one slowly and uncomfortably have digested all this doom. Certainly not for the squeamish or faint of heart. haha
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 16 May 2015, 15:55:12

pstarr wrote:
Lore wrote:The U.S. ranks 36th in life expectancy. Right behind Costa Rica and a jump ahead of Cuba. Nothing to be proud of if you rate advantage by years.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ ... expectancy

I was just responding to KJ and his dominionistic dismissal of us doomsayers.


The US ranks 36th in life expectancy because of heart disease and diabetes and other conditions brought on by too much rich food and too little exercise. Our environment is cleaner than most - and way cleaner than any industrialized country a fraction of our size. Our country is secure from foreign invaders and (however transitory this last is) at the moment actually making good progress on a long held energy self-sufficiency goal.

You as a US citizen also have the right to go live in Costa Rica or Cuba. Whether they will have you is something you have to handle yourself.

I just thought that I would point out - again - that as a US citizen, you are a whole lot less F'd than most other peoples. In Africa they are starving and willing to try to escape in overcrowded boats. In Central and South America they are coming North and the US is still absorbing millions of refugees.

Here many people have the both the right - and the means - to relocate to whatever hidey hole or doomstead or extended family compound or wherever - without being placed on a death list, subjected to ethnic cleansing, or being attacked because you are a member of the wrong Middle Eastern or African or SouthEastern European tribe.

Here you have the perfect right to complain about the government. Here you can dis the USA every day and twice on Sunday and we won't kill you or even imprison you for it.

Here we have bleeding hearts who will pick you up and set you on your feet and try yet again to make you a contributing member of the society you are endlessly complaining about, while comfortably ensconced in your suburban hidey-hole in that most prototypical example of the inflated and pretentious and uniquely American lifestyle, a Californian behind the "Redwood Curtain". :mrgreen:
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby ennui2 » Sun 17 May 2015, 01:02:49

On that point, KJ, I agree with you.

Some of the anti-US bashing is really out of touch and hypocritical.
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby Quinny » Sun 17 May 2015, 03:57:40

I agree you shouldn't be bashing the anti-US. They need support ;)
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby Lore » Sun 17 May 2015, 05:01:30

ennui2 wrote:On that point, KJ, I agree with you.

Some of the anti-US bashing is really out of touch and hypocritical.


None of what KJ mentioned is unique to the U.S. It's all pretty relative. In fact what wer're doing to the planet's happiness ranks us near the bottom. It's nothing more than propagandist hubris that makes us believe in our exceptionalism. As a country we're doing more to destroy the very world we live on then most any other nation.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Planet_Index

The U.S. Consumer

The United States, with less than 5 % of the global population, uses about a quarter of the world’s fossil fuel resources—burning up nearly 25 % of the coal, 26 % of the oil, and 27 % of the world’s natural gas.

As of 2003, the U.S. had more private cars than licensed drivers, and gas-guzzling sport utility vehicles were among the best-selling vehicles.
New houses in the U.S. were 38 % bigger in 2002 than in 1975, despite having fewer people per household on average.

http://www.worldwatch.org/node/810
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 17 May 2015, 11:56:52

KJ, I would rather live in the US than Somalia. But is that a fair comparison?
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 17 May 2015, 12:56:01

"But is that a fair comparison?"

Presumably that was a rhetorical question.

The proper comparison is with other mature industrialized countries.

And when you put us up against them, we are dead last in healthcare availability, public transportation spending and safety, rates of infant mortality, and nearly every other measure of general public well being. For many of those we actually rank below many third world countries. We have, essentially become a third world country.

But we do rank first in military spending as well as for spending on our utterly sh!tty healthcare system! :) [smilie=eusa_clap.gif] [smilie=eusa_dance.gif] [smilie=confused3.gif] [smilie=confused5.gif] [smilie=crybaby2.gif] [smilie=cwm10.gif] [smilie=cussing.gif]
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby onlooker » Sun 17 May 2015, 13:05:43

None of what KJ mentioned is unique to the U.S. It's all pretty relative. In fact what wer're doing to the planet's happiness ranks us near the bottom. It's nothing more than propagandist hubris that makes us believe in our exceptionalism. As a country we're doing more to destroy the very world we live on then most any other nation.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Planet_Index

The U.S. Consumer

The United States, with less than 5 % of the global population, uses about a quarter of the world’s fossil fuel resources—burning up nearly 25 % of the coal, 26 % of the oil, and 27 % of the world’s natural gas.

As of 2003, the U.S. had more private cars than licensed drivers, and gas-guzzling sport utility vehicles were among the best-selling vehicles.
New houses in the U.S. were 38 % bigger in 2002 than in 1975, despite having fewer people per household on average.

http://www.worldwatch.org/node/810
[/quote]
So true, the US since WWII by far has been the country with the most impact in terms of consumption and the subsequent environmental consequences of said consumption.
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 17 May 2015, 13:13:49

Yes dohboi, it was rhetorical. KJ is fun to debate. But for your serious consideration:

The solution to our peak-oil/AGW/ecosystem crisis should be obvious; we need to return to the land. We know have to land, tools, energy, and information such that we would all truly be Lords and Ladies of our Domain. Without the need for on-farm/transport processing (drying, boxing, refrigeration), packaging, warehousing, retail and home storage our nation's largest energy expenditure would plummet prodigiously. Simple-minded permaculture practices combined with high technology and modern chemistry would grant us heaven on earth. This is actually how most modern civilized folks live all over the world. 5% of the world's population, 25% of energy use. That's us.

All that stands in the way is that insurmountable problem: ownership. Too many very wealthy very powerful members of congress (especially senators) and their donor corporations benefit mightily from concentrated monocrop agriculture on vast acreage in the Midwest and California's Central Valley. Get rid of those parasite and you have your solution. But then we would also have to get rid of suburbia also. Not-so-simple violent revolution and land-redistribution will come after much hardship anyway. Why not start now? Who wants to donate to my Revolution Fund. Screw USDA! Bring on Communism.

Yikes! Oh shit. There I go . . . opening my fat trap. Well it was nice knowing everybody. I am in hiding in a secure undisclosed location behind the Redwood Curtain :razz:
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby onlooker » Sun 17 May 2015, 13:50:48

So true Dohboi about the US. You forgot the old and breaking down infrastructure which has been documented. :? 8O
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 17 May 2015, 16:42:41

pstarr wrote:Yes dohboi, it was rhetorical. KJ is fun to debate. But for your serious consideration:

The solution to our peak-oil/AGW/ecosystem crisis should be obvious; we need to return to the land. We know have to land, tools, energy, and information such that we would all truly be Lords and Ladies of our Domain. Without the need for on-farm/transport processing (drying, boxing, refrigeration), packaging, warehousing, retail and home storage our nation's largest energy expenditure would plummet prodigiously. Simple-minded permaculture practices combined with high technology and modern chemistry would grant us heaven on earth. This is actually how most modern civilized folks live all over the world. 5% of the world's population, 25% of energy use. That's us.

All that stands in the way is that insurmountable problem: ownership. Too many very wealthy very powerful members of congress (especially senators) and their donor corporations benefit mightily from concentrated monocrop agriculture on vast acreage in the Midwest and California's Central Valley. Get rid of those parasite and you have your solution. But then we would also have to get rid of suburbia also. Not-so-simple violent revolution and land-redistribution will come after much hardship anyway. Why not start now? Who wants to donate to my Revolution Fund. Screw USDA! Bring on Communism.

Yikes! Oh shit. There I go . . . opening my fat trap. Well it was nice knowing everybody. I am in hiding in a secure undisclosed location behind the Redwood Curtain :razz:

:P Ok Pstarr we have heard these points from you before. One question? What is the largest crop you have ever grown and what were the yields?
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 17 May 2015, 17:19:13

10 pounds from 99 plants in 150 sq. ft., under 6-8 lights is about right for the industry. Outdoor? The sky is the limit, literally and figuratively.
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 17 May 2015, 18:41:00

pstarr wrote:10 pounds from 99 plants in 150 sq. ft., under 6-8 lights is about right for the industry. Outdoor? The sky is the limit, literally and figuratively.


I bet you smoked so much of it yourself you failed to show a profit. :mrgreen:
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby careinke » Sun 17 May 2015, 21:10:39

KaiserJeep wrote:
pstarr wrote:10 pounds from 99 plants in 150 sq. ft., under 6-8 lights is about right for the industry. Outdoor? The sky is the limit, literally and figuratively.


I bet you smoked so much of it yourself you failed to show a profit. :mrgreen:


If he smoked enough of it to not make a profit, he would still be happy. :-D
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Mon 18 May 2015, 00:26:32

Apneaman wrote:Robert Callaghan Says:
► 50% of Human Sperm Counts gone since 1950.
That doesn't seem to have made much difference.

Apneaman wrote:► Humans and livestock eat 40% of earth’s annual land chlorophyll production.
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Re: THE Biodiversity thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 18 May 2015, 07:02:47

No doubt that humanity has screwed itself and much else.

Doh and I debated blame. I don't think I presented a very compelling reason why someone should not blame others. I would like to offer a theory on how we got where we are, sans blaming some one group. It's a partial explanation, not complete.

Humans are capable of operating, planning, over some time frame. Hunter gatherers need to work over a short time frame, maybe a few months, usually much less. As we developed agriculture we needed to work over longer time frames, at least one growing season so we could save harvests and seeds to start over. There is some evidence that we can work over longer time frames when we have a stable government, but these are extraordinary events.

There seems to be little evidence that we can, as a crowd, conceptualizer and plan over significant time frames, the kind of time frames required to deal with resource depletion and climate change.

I suggest that there is a natural impediment to this forward thinkingap and planning in the shortness of our life spans relative to the flow of the problem. Because children grow up in the world they grow up in they experience the degradation of their parents world as "normal." This each generation has a new normal, the time clock is reset. It naturally limits how far we, as a collective, can look into the future.

This is a true for the 1% as it is for the balance. They just can't see.
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Re: THE Biodiversity thread Pt. 2

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Mon 18 May 2015, 07:09:09

Keith - "That doesn't seem to have made much difference." That brings to mind a response from Gen. Scharzkopf when a reporter asked a seemingly critical question as to how many land mines were there in that field he ran across to save a wounded man. The general gave him a stare that would make you blood run cold: "It only takes one to kill you." He didn't say it but you could tell the last word of the comment would have been "...ass hole".

Likewise it only takes one sperm, just like one land mine, to get the job done. LOL.
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