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THE Biodiversity thread Pt. 2(merged)

Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby jedrider » Fri 08 May 2015, 19:24:30

Well, I wanted to start a Good News thread, but I have none :lol:
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sat 09 May 2015, 08:37:54

Newfie - Maybe this is in the same vein as you and your friend running from a hungry bear: which of you runs faster is what's really important. Everyone may be f*cked but some are more f*cked then others. Thus the less f*cked are the "winners". Yeah...we've won!!!
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 09 May 2015, 12:46:10

Roc,

I get Your point, but I don't think that, at the end of the day, there will be any winners. Short term perhaps. Long term? No way.

Unless you call the Titanic survivors "winners." Yes they did better than their less fortunate travelers, but I suspect none of them felt particularlly enriched by the experience.

But more to my point, I was trying to take the view point of what WE have done to Earth. Saying "OK, we are TOTALLY F'D" can be construed to be an anthropomorphic new point. I.e., humanity is screwed. Which has a "Oh woe is me!" component, at least potentially.

My point was more HU-f'ing-MANITY MADE the mess. We, collectively, have no right to bemoan the crop we sowed, tended and are about to harvest.

Humanity DID THIS. It was not a random act of nature.

Humanity is responsible.
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 09 May 2015, 12:56:02

jedrider wrote:Well, I wanted to start a Good News thread, but I have none :lol:


Jed,

This begs the question "What is good news?"

Have you seen the Bartlett lecture on exponential growth? If you have yu may recall the point where he holds up the board comparing thins we consider "good" with those we consider "bad."

All the "good" things led to greater population growth, all the "bad" things led to decreasing population.

So, if one holds that we need to reduce population then.....
That the Ebola epidemic fizzled was bad news
That Brazil and California are suffering droughts is good news
Isis is also good news for they kill a lot of folks and will eventually cause much more death
The Mediterian refuge news, that thousands are drowning is good news.

So you see, it's all a matter of perspective and priorities. :-D
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 09 May 2015, 13:48:46

Newfie wrote:
So, if one holds that we need to reduce population then.....
That the Ebola epidemic fizzled was bad news
That Brazil and California are suffering droughts is good news
Isis is also good news for they kill a lot of folks and will eventually cause much more death
The Mediterian refuge news, that thousands are drowning is good news.

So you see, it's all a matter of perspective and priorities. :-D


I wonder to what degree these sentiments will one day become mainstream and replace the politically correct humanism that treats all 7.3 billion humans along with their 20 billion domestic dogs and cats as sacred souls all deserving the right of a long and abundant life.

You tighten the constraints through droughts and famine and allow environmental instabilities to release pandemics and it wont take much for bioregions, nations, continents, races, religions, to start putting up their fences.
Patiently awaiting the pathogens. Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sat 09 May 2015, 15:07:47

"Unless you call the Titanic survivors "winners." Exactly my point: "winners" or survivors? You say potato and I say tomato. But we can't call the whole thing off...we're all stuck on this planet. LOL. Now carry the "Titanic" movie theme to a much older movie..."Lifeboat": X number of survivors (winners) in the life boat but only enough provisions for less the X to hang on until rescued. So the boat captain has to decide on who to put over the side. An ill elderly man is cut loose but they hang on to his dog: if it comes to it they can eat the dog.

So who in this world would you "logically" cut loose, El Capitan, and who would be worth saving? Maybe keep the US farmers fed and let the Somalis perish? Makes logical sense, doesn't it? Keep the Saudi economy functioning so their oil fields keep producing and let the Japanese economy collapse because they only produce 5,000 bopd while they consume 4.5 million bopd?

Of course it's just a theoretical question: survivors will be determined by their ability to control the circumstances to some degree. BTW: do you know about Japan’s “Aircraft Carrier in Disguise”:

Japan officially unveiled its long-awaited Izumo-class helicopter destroyer (22DDH-class destroyer) on Wednesday, the Associated Press reports. At 820 feet long and displacing 24,000 tons, the ship can carry 14 helicopters. It is the largest warship Japan has fielded since WWII, and about 50 percent bigger than Japan’s current largest ship, the Hyuga-class helicopter destroyer. The unveiling of the vessel, which will be the third helicopter carrier in the Japan Maritime Self Defense Forces’ (JMSDF) fleet, coincides with the 68th anniversary of the atomic bombing of Hiroshima. The 22DDH-Class Destroyer was first order in 2009 and is expected to be commissioned into the fleet in 2015. Tokyo has said the Izumo-class destroyer will be used for anti-submarine warfare, border-area surveillance missions and to transport personnel to the sites of natural disasters.

However, the vessel has clearly unnerved China, where it has received extensive coverage in the state media. Commenting on the 22DDH on Wednesday, China’s Defense Ministry said, “We are concerned over Japan's constant expansion of its military equipment. Japan's Asian neighbors and the international community need to be highly vigilant about this trend. Japan should learn from history, adhere to its policy of self-defense and abide by its promise to take the road of peaceful development.” Li Daguang, a professor at the PLA’s National Defense University, similarly called the vessel an “aircraft carrier in disguise.”

Japan’s pacifist constitution would seemingly prohibit it from operating aircraft carriers. However, Li is not alone in having these suspicions. Commentators have been warning for years that this is a destroyer in name only and is built so that it is could theoretically later be equipped with combat aircraft such as the F-35B, the short takeoff and vertical landing variant of the Joint Strike Fighter. Sources in Japan have countered this speculation by suggesting that the reason for the increase in the 22DDH’s size over the Hyuga-class is that Japan intends to use the V22 Osprey as the main aircraft it flies off the vessel. There is no official confirmation on this; however, it is notable that Japan is now looking at buying the V22 Osprey.

In reality, it seems likely that how Japan uses the 22DDH will depend on how the regional security situation develops. By building a pseudo-carrier, and maintaining a fleet of combat aircraft, Tokyo will preserve the option of deploying an aircraft carrier after a certain amount of training, which could potentially be reduced by practicing take-off and landing exercises from U.S. carriers.

In this sense, the 22DDH might not be so different from Japan’s breakout nuclear capacity.
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby dohboi » Sat 09 May 2015, 15:55:16

"survivors will be determined by their ability to control the circumstances to some degree"

Exactly, so mainly the wealthy and, as you point out, those with the greatest gun power, will prevail--or rather, the wealthiest in the countries with the greatest gun power will prevail.

Since the US spends more on defense than then next, what is it now, 180 countries combined, the US elites (but not necessarily most of the rest of us) will mostly survive. Hence perhaps their general reluctance mostly to take any of these things particularly seriously.

I do agree with Newf here that we are much more solidly f'ing the rest of the planet, especially the other large mammals without which the ecosystems they inhabit pretty much fall apart (the main point of the linked article in my post at the top of the thread).
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 09 May 2015, 15:59:59

Ibon wrote:
Newfie wrote:
So, if one holds that we need to reduce population then.....
That the Ebola epidemic fizzled was bad news
That Brazil and California are suffering droughts is good news
Isis is also good news for they kill a lot of folks and will eventually cause much more death
The Mediterian refuge news, that thousands are drowning is good news.

So you see, it's all a matter of perspective and priorities. :-D


I wonder to what degree these sentiments will one day become mainstream and replace the politically correct humanism that treats all 7.3 billion humans along with their 20 billion domestic dogs and cats as sacred souls all deserving the right of a long and abundant life.

You tighten the constraints through droughts and famine and allow environmental instabilities to release pandemics and it wont take much for bioregions, nations, continents, races, religions, to start putting up their fences.


They will NEVER become mainstream. But they will lie underneath the rational we will construct to allow one another to die. The mainstream will always paint the pig with lipstick, that's their job. We will vilify and rationalize our way forward, always protecting our hypocritical self image of righteousness and freedom.

Is my Wife a German? Or a Hun?
Is my friend Jewish? Or a Kike?
Black or ?
Homosexual or ?

I am just trying to point out some naked truth that the mainstream will never admit.
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 09 May 2015, 16:09:05

ROCMAN wrote "So who in this world would you "logically" cut loose, El Capitan, and who would....."

Roc,

Beyond saving my own self and family I have no idea. Why should I know? How could anyone possibly know?

There is an old saying also got the lines of .... "Don't bring up a problem unless you know the fix." I always though that was pretty stupid. I don't know the fix, but I can see the problem.

The problems before, even though they are of our own making, are not within our power to fix. There is no human "logic" capable of the task. :cry:

But that doesn't mean we should not speak of them frankly. If only to try to individually cope.
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby dohboi » Sat 09 May 2015, 16:15:32

"So who in this world would you "logically" cut loose"

The logical answer is the ~20% of the global population who is doing and has done ~80% of the harm.

But it is the 20% (or really, the .01%) at the top who are mostly calling the shots.

It's the old problem of belling the cat, as usual. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belling_the_cat
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 09 May 2015, 16:17:55

dohboi wrote:"survivors will be determined by their ability to control the circumstances to some degree"

Exactly, so mainly the wealthy and, as you point out, those with the greatest gun power, will prevail--or rather, the wealthiest in the countries with the greatest gun power will prevail.

Since the US spends more on defense than then next, what is it now, 180 countries combined, the US elites (but not necessarily most of the rest of us) will mostly survive. Hence perhaps their general reluctance mostly to take any of these things particularly seriously.

I do agree with Newf here that we are much more solidly f'ing the rest of the planet, especially the other large mammals without which the ecosystems they inhabit pretty much fall apart (the main point of the linked article in my post at the top of the thread).


Agreed, but here is the irony.....does any of us here truly desire to move to some lessor country? Are not not all secretly glad that we derive comfort and protection from the very forces we despise?

"We sleep soundly in or beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

Attributed to both Churchill and Orwell.
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 09 May 2015, 16:19:45

dohboi wrote:"So who in this world would you "logically" cut loose"

The logical answer is the ~20% of the global population who is doing and has done ~80% of the harm.

But it is the 20% (or really, the .01%) at the top who are mostly calling the shots.

It's the old problem of belling the cat, as usual. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belling_the_cat
Image


You do realize that this is very racist and an example of the rationalization so was taking about?
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby jedrider » Sat 09 May 2015, 16:40:17

Yellowstone Super-Volcano, where are you when we need you so??

I truly hope the descent is rapid, because it seems far more horrible when drawn out. Just like we euthanize animals rather than let them suffer.
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby JuanP » Sat 09 May 2015, 16:56:57

Blaming the Chinese for global environmental destruction is ignorant and infantile.

As far as biological diversity in North America goes; all of North America has less biological diversity than just one hectare of Amazon jungle. From a biological diversity perspective North America is nothing more than empty space.

Some comments here are truly way out. People who think that people, dogs, and cows can make up a healthy ecosystem have no idea how the world works. The truth is we are f*cked, and the biosphere is f*cked, too.

I know spelling this out is pointless because most people are not willing to accept that we are f*cked. I had a Vasectomy and no children, and as far as I am concerned the future is other people's children's problem. Let's party on!
"Human stupidity has no limits" JuanP
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sat 09 May 2015, 17:20:56

Newfie - "Beyond saving my own self and family I have no idea. Why should I know? How could anyone possibly know?" My subtle point exactly. Hopefully one is never in a position of responsibility where they are forced to make such a call. You're familiar with putting a man on point in front of a patrol: better to lose one man if you get zapped and lose many more. So which grunt would you put on point: the sharpest who would have the best chance of survival or the f*ck up you could more afford to lose? No...it's not a trick question. Life ain't fair...just ruthlessly logical at times.

No sane person would want that responsibility. Fortunately we have had some who have taken it on. It might not be judged as fair but a choice has to be made.
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby dohboi » Sat 09 May 2015, 18:13:57

"does any of us here truly desire to move to some lessor country?"

Well it sounds like Ibon already has. And really, the elite's don't give a rat's a$$ about whether we sleep safe in our beds. They have done a pretty damn good job of depriving lots of people of their 'beds' by taking the homes the beds are in away from people in the last decade or so.

And the racist claim???? What freakin' definition of racism are you working from here, man?

(Here's a little primer to get you introduced to the subject if you're really interested: http://bytheirstrangefruit.blogspot.com ... tatum.html)

I'm talking about global elites who are now of all races.

And yeah, if what I say seems oppressive to some over-privileged white guys, I have not one bit of problem with that.
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 09 May 2015, 18:15:43

ROC,

I agree with one point of clarification.

We have already made our choice. Our choice is to ignore the problem and let Nature take its course.
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby Subjectivist » Sat 09 May 2015, 18:56:21

One death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic...
II Chronicles 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sat 09 May 2015, 21:36:28

"Our choice is to ignore the problem and let Nature take its course." Yes, as I was implying: so few actually chose to make the tough decisions. Especially those with the real power to possibly make a difference.

Same old saw: We have met the enemy...and he is us.
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby ennui2 » Sun 10 May 2015, 00:40:40

dohboi wrote:And yeah, if what I say seems oppressive to some over-privileged white guys, I have not one bit of problem with that.


Is there any real point to all this "elite" nonsense? Are any of you planning to blow up a cell phone tower or a dam like Derrick Jensen would like us to do? All this "elite" talk is just hypocritical. Close behind the 1% is anyone rich enough to be here on peakoil.com casually staring at a computer monitor typing about problems that are largely abstract right now. So lay off on the moral high-horse.
"If the oil price crosses above the Etp maximum oil price curve within the next month, I will leave the forum." --SumYunGai (9/21/2016)
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