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THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

THE Battery Technology Thread pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby TheAntiDoomer » Sun 28 Mar 2010, 22:37:53

Nano-scale Ultra Capacitors Challenge the Lithium-Ion Batter
Does your laptop battery die out right before you hit send on that important email? With scientists at MIT, Intel and other facilities researching microstructures (i.e. micro- or nano-scale pieces of computing hardware) it may be only a matter of time before nano-scale ultra-powerful capacitors challenge lithium-ion batteries.
"The human ability to innovate out of a jam is profound.That’s why Darwin will always be right, and Malthus will always be wrong.” -K.R. Sridhar


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Re: Nano-scale Ultra Capacitors Challenge the Lithium-Ion Batter

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Mon 29 Mar 2010, 00:33:04

TheAntiDoomer wrote:http://www.pcworld.com/article/192300/nanoscale_ultra_capacitors_challenge_the_lithiumion_battery.html

Does your laptop battery die out right before you hit send on that important email? With scientists at MIT, Intel and other facilities researching microstructures (i.e. micro- or nano-scale pieces of computing hardware) it may be only a matter of time before nano-scale ultra-powerful capacitors challenge lithium-ion batteries.

The pcworld article is based on an EETimes article which quotes the researcher:
"It's way too early to announce any results, but we are taking what we think is a fresh look at building ultracapacitors using our expertise in nanomaterials fabrication and high volume manufacturing," said Aldridge. "The research targets are to exceed energy storage of battery technology in terms of energy density and figure out how to assemble these nano-capacitors into ultracapacitors that have useful voltage ranges," he added.

So they have a shiny new lab and they're planning to invent whiz-bang hi-tech stuff.

"only a matter of time"
"I could go on, but let’s veer off in another direction instead."

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Re: Nano-scale Ultra Capacitors Challenge the Lithium-Ion Ba

Unread postby Googolplex » Tue 04 May 2010, 02:20:40

And where are the amazing nano-capacitors that were about to be made available years ago? Wasn't the world supposed to be changed forever by now?

I actually had some hope that these might be the real thing for a short time. Oh well.
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Re: Nano-scale Ultra Capacitors Challenge the Lithium-Ion Ba

Unread postby markjay50 » Tue 13 Jul 2010, 22:55:12

Googolplex wrote:And where are the amazing nano-capacitors that were about to be made available years ago? Wasn't the world supposed to be changed forever by now?

I actually had some hope that these might be the real thing for a short time. Oh well.


That's very good thanks for that that's very helpful!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Nano-scale Ultra Capacitors Challenge the Lithium-Ion Ba

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Tue 13 Jul 2010, 23:50:31

TheAntiDoomer wrote:http://www.pcworld.com/article/192300/nanoscale_ultra_capacitors_challenge_the_lithiumion_battery.html

Does your laptop battery die out right before you hit send on that important email? With scientists at MIT, Intel and other facilities researching microstructures (i.e. micro- or nano-scale pieces of computing hardware) it may be only a matter of time before nano-scale ultra-powerful capacitors challenge lithium-ion batteries.

I thought that EEStorey is over...
Maybe another scam...
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Re: Nano-scale Ultra Capacitors Challenge the Lithium-Ion Ba

Unread postby pstarr » Wed 14 Jul 2010, 01:14:40

EnergyUnlimited wrote:
TheAntiDoomer wrote:http://www.pcworld.com/article/192300/nanoscale_ultra_capacitors_challenge_the_lithiumion_battery.html

Does your laptop battery die out right before you hit send on that important email? With scientists at MIT, Intel and other facilities researching microstructures (i.e. micro- or nano-scale pieces of computing hardware) it may be only a matter of time before nano-scale ultra-powerful capacitors challenge lithium-ion batteries.

I thought that EEStorey is over...
Maybe another scam...
Whatever happened to Anti and Shorty and all the ghosts of Cornies past?

2010-03-28, 20:37:53
Haven't you heard? I'm a doomer!
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Re: Nano-scale Ultra Capacitors Challenge the Lithium-Ion Ba

Unread postby Ayoob » Wed 14 Jul 2010, 04:41:11

pstarr wrote:
EnergyUnlimited wrote:
TheAntiDoomer wrote:http://www.pcworld.com/article/192300/nanoscale_ultra_capacitors_challenge_the_lithiumion_battery.html

Does your laptop battery die out right before you hit send on that important email? With scientists at MIT, Intel and other facilities researching microstructures (i.e. micro- or nano-scale pieces of computing hardware) it may be only a matter of time before nano-scale ultra-powerful capacitors challenge lithium-ion batteries.

I thought that EEStorey is over...
Maybe another scam...
Whatever happened to Anti and Shorty and all the ghosts of Cornies past?

2010-03-28, 20:37:53


I'm cheering the technology crowd on, I just don't necessarily believe they're going to win the race against time. I think the American middle class is going to flounder and become the poor, they'll never be able to afford a Nissan Leaf with micronanosuperconductor batteries because that car's going to be 90 grand. You just can't make that kind of money running a price scanner at Costco.

The few will still be rich and will have Tesla supercars, the poor will continue to take it up the ass and drop down the social structure and satisfy themselves with homemade wheat germ moonshine and a certain amount of freedom.
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Re: Nano-scale Ultra Capacitors Challenge the Lithium-Ion Ba

Unread postby efarmer » Wed 14 Jul 2010, 09:59:39

The quest electrical power storage reminds me of the situation before the Wright Brothers flew at Kitty Hawk, Samuel Langley and all of distinguished poohbahs in academia had all the government and military backing to make flying machines, they started with dinky rubber powered machines and then attempted to scale up. I think the nanoparticle and bucky ball folks are going to scale up to laptop batteries and cordless tools and the electric vehicle folks will wait for the battery tech equivalent of the Wright brothers.
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Re: Nano-scale Ultra Capacitors Challenge the Lithium-Ion Ba

Unread postby JRP3 » Mon 19 Jul 2010, 20:46:34

I built a 50 mile max EV conversion using existing LiFePO4 large scale prismatic cells, three phase AC induction motor, for about $13K. Handles 99% of my driving needs. I wish the automakers would focus less on battery technology and more on weight savings and aerodynamics. 15 years ago the Solectria Sunrise went over 300 miles on a charge with a 26KWH pack, only slightly larger than the Leaf pack. That pack would cost me as an individual about $10K, obviously OEM's could do a lot better. The technology is here, all that is needed is the will to optimize it.
Oh, and the Leaf is being priced around $33K, $25K after rebates.
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Re: Nano-scale Ultra Capacitors Challenge the Lithium-Ion Ba

Unread postby Aging gypsy » Sat 21 Aug 2010, 07:26:06

I`ve looked into utilising LiFePO4 batteries on my motorcycles but they require specific regimes of use and charging so are not really suitable for my use:

http://www.lifebatt.co.uk/faq.html

What we must remember folks is the availability of lithium, as an element it`s quite rare:

http://education.jlab.org/itselemental/ele003.html

Now, we are talking of utilising battery technology encompassing lithium in the battle of `weaning` mankind off his reliance on fossil fuels for the future good of the planet are we not?
Most lithium is obtained from Spodumene:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spodumene

Primarily because it`s by far the cheapest way to get the purity required, remember some lithium is used medicinally to help stabilise bi-polar conditions.
There`s always a price to pay for technology, the Chinese are folowing the Canadians in gearing up to deep ocean floor mining of minerals, their sights are set upon mining around hydrothermal vents which are already very sensitive areas to mess with, De Beers and others are already mining diamonds from the ocean floor.I`m not in any way convinced about the `minimal` environmental damage claims being banded about, the marine environment is already under intense pressure from pollution, warming and industrial fishing activities:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepsea_mining

Use vehicles LESS, that`s the real way forward.
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Re: Nano-scale Ultra Capacitors Challenge the Lithium-Ion Ba

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 21 Aug 2010, 12:47:19

markjay50 wrote:
Googolplex wrote:And where are the amazing nano-capacitors that were about to be made available years ago? Wasn't the world supposed to be changed forever by now?

I actually had some hope that these might be the real thing for a short time. Oh well.


That's very good thanks for that that's very helpful!!!!!!!!!!


The WSJ had a decent article on this in Thursday's or Friday's paper. The context was clearly that this is in the pure research stage, and will be a long term thing, IF anything comes of it.

OTOH, nary a word about the recent EESTORE failure in the "capacitors are going to radically transform cars soon" area, which seemed like a gross oversight to me.

Maybe since they're a hard right wing paper editorially, they don't want to appear too negative on green issues in news articles, but this, per multiple recollections, certainly hasn't prevented that numerous times in the past year or so.
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Re: Nano-scale Ultra Capacitors Challenge the Lithium-Ion Ba

Unread postby JRP3 » Sat 28 Aug 2010, 08:19:56

Aging gypsy wrote:I`ve looked into utilising LiFePO4 batteries on my motorcycles but they require specific regimes of use and charging so are not really suitable for my use:

http://www.lifebatt.co.uk/faq.html

What we must remember folks is the availability of lithium, as an element it`s quite rare:

http://education.jlab.org/itselemental/ele003.html

Now, we are talking of utilising battery technology encompassing lithium in the battle of `weaning` mankind off his reliance on fossil fuels for the future good of the planet are we not?
Most lithium is obtained from Spodumene:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spodumene

Primarily because it`s by far the cheapest way to get the purity required, remember some lithium is used medicinally to help stabilise bi-polar conditions.
There`s always a price to pay for technology, the Chinese are folowing the Canadians in gearing up to deep ocean floor mining of minerals, their sights are set upon mining around hydrothermal vents which are already very sensitive areas to mess with, De Beers and others are already mining diamonds from the ocean floor.I`m not in any way convinced about the `minimal` environmental damage claims being banded about, the marine environment is already under intense pressure from pollution, warming and industrial fishing activities:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepsea_mining

Use vehicles LESS, that`s the real way forward.

There is plenty of lithium for a long long time:
http://www.sequence-omega.net/2009/05/1 ... es-abound/
http://www.chemetalllithium.com/index.php?id=7
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World's Most Powerful Industrial Lithium-Ion Battery

Unread postby TheAntiDoomer » Thu 04 Nov 2010, 15:14:20

http://www.energy-daily.com/reports/Wor ... y_999.html

Corvus Energy is transforming the marine, transportation and energy industries with its release of an advanced lithium-ion battery technology that is able to store and distribute energy in megawatt sizes and has the capacity to output sustained power comparable to diesel engines in hybrid and full-electric vessels and vehicles.
"The human ability to innovate out of a jam is profound.That’s why Darwin will always be right, and Malthus will always be wrong.” -K.R. Sridhar


Do I make you Corny? :)

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"Printing" Solid State Lithium Ion Batteries

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 31 Jan 2011, 14:36:28

An "Economist" rticle discusses a company (Planar Energy of Orlando) developing a way to "print" solid state Lithium Ion Batteries.

Looks potentially promising, doesn't seem to be overly hyped, and the timeframe is moderate (6ish years) forecast to get up to the point to start potentially producing electric car sized batteries.

If it works, they're talking about a Volt with a 120 KM range on battery, a very long life (tens of thousands of charge / discharge cycles, and durable parts) and hopefully a cost more like a third of today's Volt or Leaf sized LI batteries.

http://www.economist.com/node/18007516?story_id=18007516&fsrc=rss

As a moderate, this is the kind of process improvement (IMO) that hopefully helps society gradually replace its ICE fleet with an electric or hybrid fleet in the next 20 to 30 years, without destroying the economy.

Far better ultracapacitors were mentioned as another likely benefit of this sort of production process, which of course, improves regenerative braking potential.
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Re: "Printing" Solid State Lithium Ion Batteries

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 31 Jan 2011, 14:54:18

Great post. Thanks.
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Re: "Printing" Solid State Lithium Ion Batteries

Unread postby Arthur75 » Mon 31 Jan 2011, 15:14:18

Indeed, another singularity airhead trepanated moron I guess ...
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Re: "Printing" Solid State Lithium Ion Batteries

Unread postby JRP3 » Mon 07 Feb 2011, 09:43:05

Outcast_Searcher wrote:

Far better ultracapacitors were mentioned as another likely benefit of this sort of production process, which of course, improves regenerative braking potential.

Not really. Existing batteries are capable of taking enough current to stop a vehicle quite quickly, caps won't improve that. Caps never have enough storage density to make it worthwhile to take up space and weight that could be used to carry more batteries.
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Re: "Printing" Solid State Lithium Ion Batteries

Unread postby ian807 » Mon 07 Feb 2011, 12:35:10

How well does lithium recycling work, and how limited are our current supplies of lithium? I'd hate to have Bolivia be the next country we're in hock to.
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Re: "Printing" Solid State Lithium Ion Batteries

Unread postby JRP3 » Mon 07 Feb 2011, 14:00:58

By all accounts there is plenty of lithium worldwide. There is actually very little lithium in most lithium batteries, they are mostly aluminum, copper, electrolyte, and plastic separators. The US has lithium mines sitting idle because right now the price of lithium is too low. Lithium recycling probably isn't profitable right now for the same reason, though Toxco and Umicore are both working on recycling lithium batteries, more for the other components than the lithium.
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THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby AgentR11 » Mon 28 Mar 2011, 08:25:11

Front page article asks the question about whether economies of scale will effect the cost of the battery pack necessary for an electric car to be, electric.

I'd like to point you to the laptop battery market, and the UPS (uninterruptible power supply) battery markets. These things are produced in enormous quantities; and the price is as high as it always has been. Scaling reduces cost when the biggest portion of cost is labor or production molding type stuff. When the biggest portion of the cost is simply the raw materials; it doesn't really matter whether you produce 100 or 100,000; and in fact, if you produce enough of them, you'll hit the demand side button on those raw materials, and it'll end up being even more expensive per unit to make 1,000,000 than it will to make 100.

Scaling can not save us on the economics of batteries. New tech could, but so far nothing has come along to prove that it will.
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