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THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: GRAPHENE to the Rescue!

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 11 Nov 2015, 06:58:51

As to scaling up, the passage that I quoted from the article claims:

Inability to produce graphene on an industrial scale initially limited development of technology into an ever-growing range of applications.

These problems have now been overcome, even to the extent that a graphene ink has been developed enabling the printing of graphene sheets and other items containing graphene.


Are people doubting that this is true? If so, perhaps some evidence would be in order. I have no particular skin in this game, but it seems unlikely that the author is just making this up. (On the other hand, he does make the rather amazing claim that, coated with Lithium, it makes a superconductor at room temperature--a claim disputed by two of the commenters--the temperature at which it acts this way is 5.9 K = -267.25 C ! So maybe the whole rest of the article is bs, too?)
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Re: GRAPHENE to the Rescue!

Unread postby pstarr » Wed 11 Nov 2015, 11:51:47

possibly within a decade? Possibly a battery using this nano-wonder material might possibly be developed in a decade. Then manufacturing processes, industrial systems (and sub-systems) would be developed to scale-up to commercial manufacturing. Then charging devices, form factors suitable for automobiles etc. Whoopie! Can I let my breath out now? I was so excited!
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Re: GRAPHENE to the Rescue!

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Wed 11 Nov 2015, 19:59:50

This article must be referring to the use of graphene in super capacitors. Super caps (without graphene) are already being used in some buses to capture regen braking power, and I have always thought that if caps are given a upgrade, they would become useful in storing power for the grid or EV's.
It looks like that graphene caps would give at least a 10X increase in power density, so this may be a bigger breakthrough than it appears. The graphene caps are a real thing, but the R & D required to make them useful is probably a ways off.
I do believe this may take off faster than you think, however. I think it will provide a cheap way to store power for a short period of time - probably more useful in transportation than anything else.
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Re: GRAPHENE to the Rescue!

Unread postby JV153 » Fri 20 Nov 2015, 09:22:16

Hawkcreek wrote:This article must be referring to the use of graphene in super capacitors. Super caps (without graphene) are already being used in some buses to capture regen braking power, and I have always thought that if caps are given a upgrade, they would become useful in storing power for the grid or EV's.
It looks like that graphene caps would give at least a 10X increase in power density, so this may be a bigger breakthrough than it appears. The graphene caps are a real thing, but the R & D required to make them useful is probably a ways off.
I do believe this may take off faster than you think, however. I think it will provide a cheap way to store power for a short period of time - probably more useful in transportation than anything else.


Yup. The supercaps have a high energy storage per unit weight but not per unit volume, but the charge/discharge curve isn't suitable for battery storage..that is they charge and discharge rapidly.
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Re: GRAPHENE to the Rescue!

Unread postby dohboi » Fri 20 Nov 2015, 11:01:53

The linked article reports on a recent breakthrough for batteries using graphene that would (among other things) improve cellphones, superfast computing and advanced prosthetics:

http://www.techradar.com/news/world-of- ... ek-1309253

Extract: "Graphene is typically made via a process called 'chemical vapour deposition', which combines gases in a reaction chamber to result in a film of graphene being deposited on a surface known as a substrate.
The Glasgow boffins, led by Dr Ravinder Dahiya, apparently used a similar process to create graphene on the surface of commercially available copper foils (which are relatively cheap, and often used in the manufacture of lithium-ion batteries for gadgets)."
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 21 May 2016, 03:53:52

This seems to be the place to discuss the Tesla Powerwall, which did in fact go into production early this year, has been shipping since Mid-January 2016 using Panasonic batteries, and produced in Fremont CA near the Tesla automobile factory. Note that the early production units were all of the smaller residential unit, earlier described as the "7 kwh" model. The "10 kwh" residential unit did not ship and was later cancelled. The "100 kwh Powerpack" commercial version has yet to ship.

Tesla appears to be producing these units at a loss at the present time, and using Panasonic batteries exclusively. Plans for revised products are already announced from the Gigafactory in 2nd half of 2016.

In April, 12 months after the product announcement, unflattering reviews of the Powerwall Version 1 were published:

What's more, a detailed reading of the Powerwall manufacturer’s warranty reveals that Tesla guarantees a lot less storage than originally advertised for its 7-kilowatt-hour daily cycling battery system.

Specifically, the warranty covers 740 cycles or 85 percent of 6.4 kilowatt-hours (so 5.4 kilowatt-hours) of capacity for the first two years -- whichever comes first. Then it covers 4.6 kilowatt-hours for three years or 1,087 cycles. And finally, it covers 3.8 kilowatt-hours for five years or 2,368 cycles.

Based on these figures, SolarQuotes estimated that each kilowatt-hour delivered from a Powerwall would end up costing an average of AUD$0.50 (US$0.39), making it more expensive than the residential storage offerings from Aquion, Redflow and Sunverge.

The calculations do not include the cost of an inverter, which would push the upfront bill to AUD$12,000 ($9,265) and the per-kilowatt-hour cost to AUD$0.75 ($0.58).


Rest of article: http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/is-teslas-powerwall-luster-already-fading

There were also detailed analysis of payback periods, using the installed cost of entire solar PV systems, including installations in Australia, Germany, and the USA:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2015/05/01/why-teslas-powerwall-is-just-another-toy-for-rich-green-people/#1730a2854879

http://instituteforenergyresearch.org/analysis/payback-on-teslas-powerwall-battery/

https://web.archive.org/web/20160108035235/http:/www.engadget.com/2016/01/07/study-a-tesla-powerwall-pays-for-itself-after-nearly-40-years/

Tesla got the above article changed, this is the current version:

http://www.engadget.com/2016/01/07/study-a-tesla-powerwall-pays-for-itself-after-nearly-40-years/

http://instituteforenergyresearch.org/analysis/tesla-fails-to-refute-iers-powerwall-article

Bottom Line: Although it makes sense when your house is off-the-grid, Powerwall is not an economical solution. For example, I produce power from my grid-tied rooftop solar PV at USD$0.31/kwh, using some pricey 6-year-old PV panels. But with today's cheaper PV and Powerwall, the price goes to USD$0.59/kwh. (Which analysis does not include the probability of replacing the Powerwall twice during the assumed 30-year life of the PV panels and inverters.) (You could choose to believe that Tesla can make 30-year batteries, but I would not, the warranty is 10 years.)
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby kublikhan » Sun 18 Sep 2016, 17:37:34

Tighter air-pollution regulations will cause utilities to shutter about 23 gigawatts of coal-fueled power plants this year. Leading this trend, Duke Energy replaced its recently retired Beckjord coal-fired plant in New Richmond, Ohio, with a 2-MW lithium-ion grid-storage battery and joined companies like AES Energy Services in the storage-to-frequency regulation market. Recycling a coal plant after pulling the plug on its operational life opens up a new business model for any independent power provider or utility with an unproductive coal plant on its hands.

Duke decided to shut down the boilers early and install battery storage. Immediately after decommissioning, work began on the battery storage system and it was on the grid by November 18, 2015. "Locating the storage system at our retired coal plant allowed us to take advantage of the grid infrastructure already in place with new, relevant technology.”

"Fast-responding energy storage can instantaneously absorb excess energy from the grid or release energy. Delivering that power in seconds, as opposed to a power plant that could take 10 minutes or more to ramp up, is the unique value the battery system provides." During any 24 hour period, the system responds more or less continuously either charging or discharging energy, depending on whether the system is above or below the target frequency. As battery storage finds a lucrative sweet spot in frequency regulation, costs are dropping in a very competitive battery market. "So we've benefited from price declines." Duke's latest installation joins a 2-MW demonstration system on the same site that has been in operation since January. “It lived up to our expectations, which is why we’re asking for another 2 megawatts.”
Retired Coal Plant Has Second Career as Lithium-ion Grid Storage

I never even thought of doing something like this. But it seem like a good idea. You save the cost of having to build new high voltage power lines, roads, and buildings. Just rip out the boilers and install the batteries. But then this isn't the first time grid energy storage took advantage of another industry's foundations. CAES does this and sometimes pumped hydro as well:

Advanced Underground CAES Project With Saline Porous Rock Formation - Compressed air storage, in-ground - A 300 MW A-CAES demonstration plant will use an underground storage container (depleted gas reservoir) and turbine generators.

Silver Creek Pumped Storage Project - Pumped hydro storage, closed loop - A project created from reclamation of coal-mining pits. The lower reservoir is formed from an existing coal-mining excavation; the upper reservoir's dam is constructed from excavated material of surface mining (overburden). Recovery of over 4 million tons of anthracite coal will help subsidize project costs.
List of energy storage projects
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby vox_mundi » Wed 02 Nov 2016, 14:01:49

Making high-performance batteries from junkyard scraps

Image

"Imagine that the tons of metal waste discarded every year could be used to provide energy storage for the renewable energy grid of the future, instead of becoming a burden for waste processing plants and the environment," said Cary Pint, assistant professor of mechanical engineering at Vanderbilt University.

To make such a future possible, Pint headed a research team that used scraps of steel and brass - two of the most commonly discarded materials - to create the world's first steel-brass battery that can store energy at levels comparable to lead-acid batteries while charging and discharging at rates comparable to ultra-fast charging supercapacitors.

The secret to unlocking this performance is anodization, a common chemical treatment used to give aluminum a durable and decorative finish. When scraps of steel and brass are anodized using a common household chemical and residential electrical current, the researchers found that the metal surfaces are restructured into nanometer-sized networks of metal oxide that can store and release energy when reacting with a water-based liquid electrolyte.

The team determined that these nanometer domains explain the fast charging behavior that they observed, as well as the battery's exceptional stability. They tested it for 5,000 consecutive charging cycles - the equivalent of over 13 years of daily charging and discharging - and found that it retained more than 90 percent of its capacity.

Unlike the recent bout of exploding lithium-ion cell phone batteries, the steel-brass batteries use non-flammable water electrolytes that contain potassium hydroxide, an inexpensive salt used in laundry detergent.

The Vanderbilt team drew inspiration from the "Baghdad Battery," a simple device dating back to the first century BC, which some believe is the world's oldest battery. It consisted of a ceramic terracotta pot, a copper sheet and an iron rod, which were found along with traces of electrolyte. Although this interpretation of the artifacts is controversial, the simple way they were constructed influenced the research team's design.

Nitin Muralidharan et al, From the Junkyard to the Power Grid: Ambient Processing of Scrap Metals into Nanostructured Electrodes for Ultrafast Rechargeable Batteries, ACS Energy Letters (2016). DOI: 10.1021/acsenergylett.6b00295
Abstract:

Here we present the first full cell battery device that is developed entirely from scrap metals of brass and steel—two of the most commonly used and discarded metals. A room-temperature chemical process is developed to convert brass and steel into functional electrodes for rechargeable energy storage that transforms these multicomponent alloys into redox-active iron oxide and copper oxide materials. The resulting steel–brass battery exhibits cell voltages up to 1.8 V, energy density up to 20 Wh/kg, power density up to 20 kW/kg, and stable cycling over 5000 cycles in alkaline electrolytes. Further, we show the versatility of this technique to enable processing of steel and brass materials of different shapes, sizes, and purity, such as screws and shavings, to produce functional battery components. The simplicity of this approach, building from chemicals commonly available in a household, enables a simple pathway to the local recovery, processing, and assembly of storage systems based on materials that would otherwise be discarded.

“When our aim was to produce the materials used in batteries from household supplies in a manner so cheaply that large-scale manufacturing facilities don’t make any sense, we had to approach this differently than we normally would in the research lab,” Pint said.

“We’re seeing the start of a movement in contemporary society leading to a ‘maker culture’ where large-scale product development and manufacturing is being decentralized and scaled down to individuals or communities. So far, batteries have remained outside of this culture, but I believe we will see the day when residents will disconnect from the grid and produce their own batteries. That’s the scale where battery technology began, and I think we will return there,” Pint said.

Video - How to Anodize Steel
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby kiwichick » Tue 13 Dec 2016, 01:25:50

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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby baha » Wed 04 Jan 2017, 15:15:45

Tesla Gigafactory is on-line. Welcome to the future.

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/04/teslas-g ... cells.html

For those of you who don't understand how solar with batteries works, let me explain.

In one year this factory will make 35 gigawatt-hours of Lithium battery capacity. Hook those batteries to a solar panel that will charge it once/day. You really only need to charge it 1/2 each day but more is better. If you only use half the capacity each day the batteries will last a long,long time.

So now you own these guys (paid for) and have them hooked up...
That's 17.5 gigawatt hours available every day. That's the BTU equivalent to 478,142 US gallons of gasoline every day for the next 10 years and it's all free (too free to meter anyway:) And that's just the first year of production. Each year adds that much more capacity to the daily energy available. This is game changing.

Is that clear enough?
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https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby pstarr » Wed 04 Jan 2017, 15:33:27

baha wrote:Tesla Gigafactory is on-line. Welcome to the future.

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/04/teslas-g ... cells.html

For those of you who don't understand how solar with batteries works, let me explain.

In one year this factory will make 35 gigawatt-hours of Lithium battery capacity. Hook those batteries to a solar panel that will charge it once/day. You really only need to charge it 1/2 each day but more is better. If you only use half the capacity each day the batteries will last a long,long time.

So now you own these guys (paid for) and have them hooked up...
That's 17.5 gigawatt hours available every day. That's the BTU equivalent to 478,142 US gallons of gasoline every day for the next 10 years and it's all free (too free to meter anyway:) And that's just the first year of production. Each year adds that much more capacity to the daily energy available. This is game changing.

Is that clear enough?

Very clear, but I don't it being game changing? Yes, certainly for lithium battery production. (Though I suspect a lot more lead-acid batteries are produced daily) But 9,563 barrel equivalent/day crude is a pittance as a peak-oil mitigation. That's a few Bakken tight-shale wells on first day of production.

And why is it Free? You don't mean that nuclear-powered robots built the $1billion plant? Someone is going to be paying for the financing, capex, construction, operations, maintenance and materials for a very very long time.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 04 Jan 2017, 15:44:58

baha wrote:Tesla Gigafactory is on-line. Welcome to the future.

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/04/teslas-g ... cells.html

For those of you who don't understand how solar with batteries works, let me explain.

In one year this factory will make 35 gigawatt-hours of Lithium battery capacity. Hook those batteries to a solar panel that will charge it once/day. You really only need to charge it 1/2 each day but more is better. If you only use half the capacity each day the batteries will last a long,long time.

So now you own these guys (paid for) and have them hooked up...
That's 17.5 gigawatt hours available every day. That's the BTU equivalent to 478,142 US gallons of gasoline every day for the next 10 years and it's all free (too free to meter anyway:) And that's just the first year of production. Each year adds that much more capacity to the daily energy available. This is game changing.

Is that clear enough?

How did they get paid for? And where did the solar panels to charge them come from and get paid for? 17.5 GWH of capacity at 75 sq. ft. per KWH at $1.00 per sq. ft. comes to $67 million dollars for the panels that would cover 1500 acres.
And I don't suppose that Tesla delivers these batteries all set up for free.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby baha » Wed 04 Jan 2017, 15:47:13

It occurs to me that if you had the sweet deal the oil companies have and could sell that for $2/gallon, in 10 years, you could make $3.1 billion. Where do I sign up?

And I do energy, not finance :razz:
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby baha » Wed 04 Jan 2017, 15:58:47

Ok, at a wholesale rate of 6 cents/kilowatt hour. This represents almost $1 million/day. For a total in ten years of $3.8 billion. That I can sign up for...at least a little piece of it...
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 04 Jan 2017, 16:07:39

baha wrote:Ok, at a wholesale rate of 6 cents/kilowatt hour. This represents almost $1 million/day. For a total in ten years of $3.8 billion. That I can sign up for...at least a little piece of it...

Don't sign me up until I know how much the batteries cost and the land leases for and the installation of all the racks for the panels comes to plus what the local government is going to charge in taxes beyond the property taxes.
You have to look at the bottom line and read all the fine print before you jump.
It might be a great deal but I'd need to see the real figures.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby baha » Wed 04 Jan 2017, 16:19:04

I see the real figures every day at work. I don't have time to spell it all out, just ask google. They own one and I'm sure they will be adding batteries.

I avoid all those issues by installing it at my house, in my yard, hooked to my grid. And I encourage you to do the same.
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby yellowcanoe » Wed 04 Jan 2017, 16:24:08

baha wrote:Tesla Gigafactory is on-line. Welcome to the future.

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/04/teslas-g ... cells.html

For those of you who don't understand how solar with batteries works, let me explain.

In one year this factory will make 35 gigawatt-hours of Lithium battery capacity. Hook those batteries to a solar panel that will charge it once/day. You really only need to charge it 1/2 each day but more is better. If you only use half the capacity each day the batteries will last a long,long time.


My understanding is that lithium batteries that are subject to a 50% depth of discharge are good for 1200 to 1500 cycles. That translates to a useful lifetime of three to four years. All the things you can do to extend the life of lithium batteries have the side effect of reducing the amount of energy you can draw from the battery each cycle thereby increasing the amount of batteries you need to be able to provide a given amount of energy in one cycle. Despite the hype of the Gigafactory, I don't think we are at the point where battery storage on a large scale is viable.

There are certainly a growing number of people who are entirely self-sufficient in generating and storing power. However, when you add up all the costs of solar panels, inverters and batteries (which have a much shorter usable lifetime than the solar panels) the cost per kilowatt-hour would generally be higher than being on the grid. As a result, people who are not connected to the grid would generally be consuming significantly less electricity than those of us who are grid connected. If we have to become largely dependent on renewable energy in the future my expectation is that we will also have to significantly reduce our consumption as electricity would be too expensive to use for all the things we do with it now.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby kublikhan » Wed 04 Jan 2017, 16:28:05

baha wrote:It occurs to me that if you had the sweet deal the oil companies have and could sell that for $2/gallon, in 10 years, you could make $3.1 billion. Where do I sign up?
The costs for the batteries dwarf the costs compared to gasoline.
$470/kWh for the powerpacks. You can buy many kWh of gasoline for $470.
$470 / 2$ a gallon = 235 gallons of gas. 235 * 33.4 kWh = 7,849 kWh. $470 buys you 1 kWh from Tesla or 7,849 kWh from gasoline.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 04 Jan 2017, 16:32:50

baha wrote:I see the real figures every day at work. I don't have time to spell it all out, just ask google. They own one and I'm sure they will be adding batteries.

I avoid all those issues by installing it at my house, in my yard, hooked to my grid. And I encourage you to do the same.

Your in a much better location for solar power then I am. I'm paying just over $0.20/ KWH all charges included and the line crews give dam good service in an ice storm. I think I'll keep them.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby baha » Wed 04 Jan 2017, 16:37:26

Clearly the best answer is to put a small one at each house that just runs that house. And once a year the owner can wash them down with a squeege and smile.
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
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