Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Graeme » Fri 26 Jun 2015, 17:15:27

Samsung Develops Tech to Double Lithium Battery Capacity

The research arm of Samsung Electronics announced on June 25 that it has developed a technology to make a silicon cathode material for coating high crystal graphene on a silicon surface to realize an energy density almost two times more than that of existing lithium batteries.

Existing lithium batteries, which were developed and commercialized by Sony in the 90’s, has been developed in a way of extending the capacity rather than increasing the life and density owing to limitations of material itself. The expansion of capacity has remained at best two times more than that of the first commercialized batteries.


businesskorea
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe. H. G. Wells.
Fatih Birol's motto: leave oil before it leaves us.
User avatar
Graeme
Anti-Matter
Anti-Matter
 
Posts: 13257
Joined: Fri 04 Mar 2005, 03:00:00
Location: New Zealand

Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby ennui2 » Wed 01 Jul 2015, 19:58:29

Graeme wrote:I'm communicating with an American startup who can make a pack which produces hydrogen in the vehicle.


Sounds like another perpetual motion scam.
"If the oil price crosses above the Etp maximum oil price curve within the next month, I will leave the forum." --SumYunGai (9/21/2016)
User avatar
ennui2
permanently banned
 
Posts: 3921
Joined: Tue 20 Sep 2011, 09:37:02
Location: Not on Homeworld

Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Wed 01 Jul 2015, 23:23:43

According to the post, the battery swap is expected to cost "slightly less than a full tank of gasoline for a premium sedan." This jibes with the estimates discussed last year, which put the cost in the $60-80 range. However, Model S battery packs have a rated design life, and customers would be expected to eventually return to the swap station and reclaim their car’s original pack; failure to do so would incur a fee equal to the difference in value between the two battery packs (there are no details as to how high this fee might be, but out-of-warranty battery pack replacements for the Model S can range as high as $12,000).
http://arstechnica.com/cars/2014/12/tes ... ack-swaps/

Weird. So they will store your original battery for years(???) at these stations while you drive around wearing out their battery with many discharge cycles, and then you come back to reclaim the original?
"I could go on, but let’s veer off in another direction instead."

– The Archdruid
User avatar
Keith_McClary
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 7279
Joined: Wed 21 Jul 2004, 02:00:00
Location: Suburban tar sands

Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby sparky » Wed 01 Jul 2015, 23:36:00

.
That's the old business model of the stage coach ,
..... get there change horses (for a fee) , the old set get a break and rest ,
to be swapped to the next coach coming along ,
as long as the nags are not half dead , the customer can complain but has little choice but to take what he is given
his choices are
1-to get lucky and get a fine set
2-to slip a bit of money to get the best available
3-to pull a flintlock pistol threatening mayhem (doesn't work , the stage coach boss would pull a blunderbuss )
4-to do without and use the same old worn down set

the profit of a swap should cover the cost and take old crappy batteries out of circulation

Batteries don't wear out , they loose their capacity , the human equivalent of getting old
all the materials making the battery can be easily recycled , especially if there is only a few models .
beside avoiding disposal hassle and lawsuits , it make good business sense
User avatar
sparky
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 3265
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 02:00:00
Location: Sydney , OZ

Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Thu 02 Jul 2015, 00:20:20

sparky wrote:.
That's the old business model of the stage coach ,
..... get there change horses (for a fee) , the old set get a break and rest ,
to be swapped to the next coach coming along ,
As described in the arstechnica article, Tesla is going to pasture your horses until you come back and reclaim them.
sparky wrote:as long as the nags are not half dead , the customer can complain but has little choice but to take what he is given
his choices are
1-to get lucky and get a fine set
2-to slip a bit of money to get the best available
3-to pull a flintlock pistol threatening mayhem (doesn't work , the stage coach boss would pull a blunderbuss )
4-to do without and use the same old worn down set

the profit of a swap should cover the cost and take old crappy batteries out of circulation

Batteries don't wear out , they loose their capacity , the human equivalent of getting old
But, don't they last longer if they are in storage and not used?
sparky wrote:all the materials making the battery can be easily recycled , especially if there is only a few models .
beside avoiding disposal hassle and lawsuits , it make good business sense
"I could go on, but let’s veer off in another direction instead."

– The Archdruid
User avatar
Keith_McClary
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 7279
Joined: Wed 21 Jul 2004, 02:00:00
Location: Suburban tar sands

Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby dolanbaker » Thu 02 Jul 2015, 03:06:07

Surely this is like buying bottled gas, you pay for the first cylinder and then when you go for a refill it gets swapped and all you pay for is the fuel (charge) and maintenance fees for the cylinder (battery).
Ronald Coase, Nobel Economic Sciences, said in 1991 “If we torture the data long enough, it will confess.”
User avatar
dolanbaker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 3474
Joined: Wed 14 Apr 2010, 09:38:47
Location: Éire

Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Thu 02 Jul 2015, 11:27:13

dolanbaker wrote:Surely this is like buying bottled gas, you pay for the first cylinder and then when you go for a refill it gets swapped and all you pay for is the fuel (charge) and maintenance fees for the cylinder (battery).
That's what I'm trying to figure out.

My first cylinder has a (legally required) expiry date stamped into it, but I don't have to worry about that - the company just keeps swapping me unexpired cylinders. I never have to "reclaim" my first cylinder.

But can I just keep swapping my Tesla batteries every few years for a ~$100 fee (when they lose capacity)? There must be a catch somewhere in the fine print.
"I could go on, but let’s veer off in another direction instead."

– The Archdruid
User avatar
Keith_McClary
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 7279
Joined: Wed 21 Jul 2004, 02:00:00
Location: Suburban tar sands

Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby ennui2 » Thu 02 Jul 2015, 12:38:40

I mentioned in another thread that Tesla is abandoning battery-swaps. I don't know why there's a discussion about it like it still might take off.

http://arstechnica.com/cars/2015/06/tes ... st-enough/
"If the oil price crosses above the Etp maximum oil price curve within the next month, I will leave the forum." --SumYunGai (9/21/2016)
User avatar
ennui2
permanently banned
 
Posts: 3921
Joined: Tue 20 Sep 2011, 09:37:02
Location: Not on Homeworld

Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Graeme » Tue 14 Jul 2015, 18:02:53

Bosch & GS Yuasa on-target to double battery energy density & half costs by 2020

German supplier Robert Bosch and Japanese battery partner GS Yuasa Corp. are "on a good path" toward their goal of developing a lithium ion battery that costs half as much as today's batteries but has twice the energy density, a top Bosch executive said.

The companies aim to produce such a battery by 2020, Wolz said. "We are on a good path to reach that target," he told reporters.

Achieving such performance in automotive power packs will be a major breakthrough in popularizing electrified drivetrains, Wolz said.

Bosch is positioning vehicle electrification as a pillar of growth as carmakers tap batteries to meet increasingly stringent emissions regulations. The supplier expects hybrid and electric-only drivetrains to account for 15 percent of the global automotive market by 2020, Wolz said.


electric-vehiclenews
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe. H. G. Wells.
Fatih Birol's motto: leave oil before it leaves us.
User avatar
Graeme
Anti-Matter
Anti-Matter
 
Posts: 13257
Joined: Fri 04 Mar 2005, 03:00:00
Location: New Zealand

Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Graeme » Fri 24 Jul 2015, 18:17:13

LG Chem Pushes Australian Battery Storage Prices Further Down The Curve

The competition in the nascent battery storage market continues to intensify, with South Korean appliance manufacturers LG Chem launching a new 6.4kWh battery storage system that approaches the key $1,000/kWh mark.

The new battery storage system is being made available to consumers in the next few weeks, and follows the release into the Australian market of AU Optronics, promoted by AGL Energy, and rival offerings from Samsung, Enphase, Panasonic and SMA.

But the LG Chem system is already bringing costs down at the top end of the market – matching the assumed pricing of the much vaunted Tesla Powerwall, with the advantage that it is actually in the market.

LG’s Chem Residential Energy Storage Unit (RESU) 6.4kWhr battery is similar in size, shape and capacity, to the Tesla offering, and is expected to last 15 to 20 years, or at least 6,000 cycles. It is being offered in Australia at $A6,898. The first supplies have arrived in Australia via wholesalers Solar Juice.

LG Chem, in its blurb to installers, says it expect the units to have a retail price of a bit more than $1000 per kW/h ex GST plus inverter solution. “The cost curve will come down over time,” it says.

The units can be upgraded to a total of 12.8kWh with 3.2kWh expansion units. LG Chem says these are expected to be slightly more than 50% of the RESU 6.4Ex price.

Jeff Wehl, from Brisbane-based Ecoelectric, says the technology will easily defy grid costs with a typical cost per kWhr of around 15 cents over 15 years.


cleantechnica
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe. H. G. Wells.
Fatih Birol's motto: leave oil before it leaves us.
User avatar
Graeme
Anti-Matter
Anti-Matter
 
Posts: 13257
Joined: Fri 04 Mar 2005, 03:00:00
Location: New Zealand

Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Graeme » Wed 29 Jul 2015, 16:55:22

UK Energy Storage Startups Take Aim At EV Battery Market

Lithium-ion is the gold standard for chemical energy storage, but a pair of UK companies have been working on alternatives that could knock down the cost of electric vehicles — and knock Li-ion out of the running. The two companies, Oxis Energy and Faradion, caught the eye of the American Chemical Society, which just gave them a huge write-up in its Chemical & Engineering News publication, so let’s take a look and see what’s up.


Image

xis Energy

We were just noticing Oxis Energy, too. Earlier this summer, Oxis announced that it will be ready to bring its lithium-sulfur (Li-S) battery to market next year, and it also entered into a partnership with the home and commercial energy storage installer Anesco.


cleantechnica
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe. H. G. Wells.
Fatih Birol's motto: leave oil before it leaves us.
User avatar
Graeme
Anti-Matter
Anti-Matter
 
Posts: 13257
Joined: Fri 04 Mar 2005, 03:00:00
Location: New Zealand

Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 29 Jul 2015, 22:09:38

Graeme wrote:UK Energy Storage Startups Take Aim At EV Battery Market

Lithium-ion is the gold standard for chemical energy storage, but a pair of UK companies have been working on alternatives that could knock down the cost of electric vehicles — and knock Li-ion out of the running. The two companies, Oxis Energy and Faradion, caught the eye of the American Chemical Society, which just gave them a huge write-up in its Chemical & Engineering News publication, so let’s take a look and see what’s up.


Just once, instead of seeing what's coming in year X (supposedly, according to a self-marketing campaign and future promises), I'd like to see how such a device is actually:

1). Revolutionary.
2). Practical.
3). Competitive in terms of convenience AND cost (without government mandated tax incentives and lots of complexity).
4). Available, conveniently and with no wait, at my local Home Depot.

Funny how with all the green promises that just doesn't seem to happen much, if at all (if price and competitiveness are included as criteria).
Outcast_Searcher
COB
COB
 
Posts: 4070
Joined: Sat 27 Jun 2009, 20:26:42

Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Thu 30 Jul 2015, 01:32:16

The various criteria are summarised on these charts:
ImageImageImage
See
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/arti ... _batteries
for captions.
"I could go on, but let’s veer off in another direction instead."

– The Archdruid
User avatar
Keith_McClary
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 7279
Joined: Wed 21 Jul 2004, 02:00:00
Location: Suburban tar sands

Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby StarvingLion » Thu 30 Jul 2015, 02:46:59

Forget it, its over. The PHD scientist flunkies are scientifically illiterate, nevermind the general public. They are so clueless that they don't even understand the common mistakes of basic physics in the textbooks such as:

1. The Earth goes around the sun. It doesn't, and in fact, this is just as wrong as saying the sun goes round the Earth. Both positions implicitly advocate there's some privileged and special frame of reference in which to view the universe, and Einstein says there isn't one. It's sort of like people who say there's no such thing as centrifugal force: stand inside a rotating reference frame and derive Newton's Laws and yes, yes it exists, and yes, yes it's real. The mistake: "some reference frames are more true than others." The reality: "you pay your money and you take your frame of reference."

2. Conservation of energy. Conservation of energy only happens in a static spacetime; astronomy says our spacetime is dynamical; energy is not conserved in our universe.

3. E=mc**2. Only true for objects at rest, and pretty much nothing in the universe is at rest. The real equation is E**2=m**2c**4 + p**2c**2. This is why light can have energy without mass: a photon's energy is carried entirely in its momentum.

4. If you measure a particle's position, you'll necessarily tweak its velocity. That's the Uncertainty Principle. No, that's the Observer Effect. The Uncertainty Principle isn't a statement about the fidelity of our measurement apparatus: it's a statement about the total information available, period. If you think the data actually exists but we just can't measure it, then you're subscribing to a Hidden Variables interpretation of quantum mechanics, and the Aspect experiments put a pretty comprehensive set of nails in that coffin.

... and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

The Anglo-Saxon banking system is degenerate.

You may as well stick your head in a gas oven...its hopeless.
The 200 Year Scrap for Crap Oil will soon begin.
StarvingLion
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 997
Joined: Sat 03 Aug 2013, 17:59:17

Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby ennui2 » Thu 30 Jul 2015, 12:43:13

Outcast_Searcher wrote:One wonders how bad the climate has to get before "Joe everyman" gets some sense of URGENCY about the AGW and air pollution problems.


No question that the frog needs to boil in the pot first.
"If the oil price crosses above the Etp maximum oil price curve within the next month, I will leave the forum." --SumYunGai (9/21/2016)
User avatar
ennui2
permanently banned
 
Posts: 3921
Joined: Tue 20 Sep 2011, 09:37:02
Location: Not on Homeworld

Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Thu 30 Jul 2015, 15:21:53

StarvingLion wrote: The PHD scientist flunkies are scientifically illiterate, nevermind the general public. They are so clueless that they don't even understand the common mistakes of basic physics in the textbooks such as:
1234
If you read the scientific literature, you will find that we understand this stuff. What you see in textbooks is simplified.

Do you have an actual relativity textbook that gets 4 wrong as you describe?
"I could go on, but let’s veer off in another direction instead."

– The Archdruid
User avatar
Keith_McClary
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 7279
Joined: Wed 21 Jul 2004, 02:00:00
Location: Suburban tar sands

GRAPHENE to the Rescue!

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 10 Nov 2015, 11:45:47

https://www.skepticalscience.com/Graphe ... l#comments

It is a very stable, chemically inert material which has x200 the strength of steel yet is malleable - its surface area can be stretched by 20%. It can be folded and crumpled, vastly increasing its surface area within the confines of a very small space. When coated with Lithium it becomes a superconductor, having no resistance to an electric current at room temperature. Graphene is an excellent thermal conductor and in its pure form is 97.7% transparent.

Inability to produce graphene on an industrial scale initially limited development of technology into an ever-growing range of applications. These problems have now been overcome, even to the extent that a graphene ink has been developed enabling the printing of graphene sheets and other items containing graphene. Sir Andre rightly describes Graphene as the foundation of far reaching disruptive technology.

It has the potential to replace and bring about the rapid demise of fossil fuels as an energy source, possibly within a decade and this alone justifies its description as a ‘wonder material’.


I'm guessing that, right now at least, the source of the carbon for this material is mostly from ffs. But I haven't researched that yet.

Applications to solar panels and batteries seem particularly interesting.

I actually meant to include a question mark, or two in the title. I worry about what happens when this stuff gets into the environment.

Mostly, rather than relying on geewiz tech, we have to essentially crash the economy, ideally with a Socialist like Sanders in charge who can plan the economy in such away to limit the pain to the poor and middle class in this transition--universal healthcare, universal employment, free education, free or cheap rent/mortgages...but very high taxes on carbon, all or almost all returned to the consumer.
User avatar
dohboi
Harmless Drudge
Harmless Drudge
 
Posts: 16773
Joined: Mon 05 Dec 2005, 03:00:00

Re: GRAPHENE to the Rescue!

Unread postby Paulo1 » Tue 10 Nov 2015, 12:47:37

The research that I have recently done suggests it is still kind of a 'pie in the sky' not easily scaled up. Hopefully, it will revolutionize batteries. We'll see. Hope to see it available.
Paulo1
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 425
Joined: Sun 07 Apr 2013, 14:50:35
Location: East Coast Vancouver Island

Re: GRAPHENE to the Rescue!

Unread postby Peak_Yeast » Tue 10 Nov 2015, 13:12:57

Yeah - I have also read that the scaling up and production of large sheets of graphene is the problem.

I can see that there are at least 10 "breakthroughs" in this area this year, but as always - there is about 1000 such breakthroughs before we see anything being commercialized.

Perhaps THIS time its different? :roll: :-)
"If democracy is the least bad form of government - then why dont we try it?"
User avatar
Peak_Yeast
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 270
Joined: Tue 30 Apr 2013, 16:54:38
Location: Denmark

Re: GRAPHENE to the Rescue!

Unread postby JV153 » Wed 11 Nov 2015, 02:04:43

It is a very stable, chemically inert material which has x200 the strength of steel yet is malleable - its surface area can be stretched by 20%. It can be folded and crumpled, vastly increasing its surface area within the confines of a very small space. When coated with Lithium it becomes a superconductor, having no resistance to an electric current at room temperature. Graphene is an excellent thermal conductor and in its pure form is 97.7% transparent.

Inability to produce graphene on an industrial scale initially limited development of technology into an ever-growing range of applications. These problems have now been overcome, even to the extent that a graphene ink has been developed enabling the printing of graphene sheets and other items containing graphene. Sir Andre rightly describes Graphene as the foundation of far reaching disruptive technology.

It has the potential to replace and bring about the rapid demise of fossil fuels as an energy source, possibly within a decade and this alone justifies its description as a ‘wonder material’.


Let's correct these misconceptions - it has 200 x the strength of steel on a weight basis, but intrinsically is used in micro/nanoscale/doping applications as a very thin film/additive. 2nd, it's not an energy source - nor can it be used as a structural bearing element.
JV153
 

PreviousNext

Return to Energy Technology

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests