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THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: What are electric car's batteries made of?

Unread postby steam_cannon » Sat 07 Feb 2015, 16:49:29

Yeah nothing screams renewable like a city size whole in the ground...
Image

Seriously though, lithium batteries are recyclable, generally, but pricy and there is a great deal of doubt whether we can mine enough to make fleets of electric cars.

A recent (2014) study on this subject has been performed by the Wuppertal Institute. The conclusion is that the problem of mineral availability for renewable energy technologies is not critical if we choose the right technologies and we are careful to recycle the materials used as much as possible.
http://peakoil.com/alternative-energy/r ... -materials
http://wupperinst.org/uploads/tx_wupper ... ummary.pdf
Are humans ever careful?

However here an article I agree with, it goes though the numbers of building fleets of electric cars and it looks really unlikely.

Can We Switch To Electric Cars?

Consumption
The simple answer is no – and the complicated answer is also no.

(The article has a lot of charts on known resources, I'm not posting them all here.)
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Re: What are electric car's batteries made of?

Unread postby pstarr » Sat 07 Feb 2015, 17:00:20

How come you engineer-types with all your fancy numbers and high-end math, don't want to face the simple fact that 100 million American and (proportionally many more in the world) do not have private garages to charge electric vehicles. Most cars sit on the street. . . WHERE THERE ARE NO PLUGS. And not enough room for 8-hour charges.

The cost to run a plug from an apartment complex out to the street for each car (yes, each car, as folks can not wait on line for 8 hours) is impossible and impossibly costly. What building has excess 220 breaker blocks? Rough estimate: $5,000/car * 100 million = $5 billion for the plugs
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Re: What are electric car's batteries made of?

Unread postby Logic » Sat 07 Feb 2015, 17:17:52

Pstarr, no one is saying EVs are a good choice for everyone. Just because they don't work for everyone doesn't mean we can't lower our use of oil by having EVs used by those it does work for.

As for renewable, no, batteries aren't renewable.
They are highly recyclable, as others have noted, and have uses after they are done being used for automotive purposes.
Lithium is a very small component of lithium batteries. Much of it them are made of more typical metals.
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Re: What are electric car's batteries made of?

Unread postby Revi » Sat 07 Feb 2015, 21:13:40

There are other choices. Check out the ELF, or even the Gem car. They use a tiny fraction of what full size cars do, and you can get around a smaller area just fine. If you have to go further afield, take a bus or a train. We just can't imagine a world where we aren't getting around encased in 3000 pounds of steel and rubber. The batteries are recyclable now, and they even ask you for your old batteries when you get new ones. Another way of getting around is possible, but we lack the will to do it.
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Re: What are electric car's batteries made of?

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 08 Feb 2015, 01:16:24

Revi, it's crazy to imagine a golf cart sharing a commute with a semi. Or a blizzard. What world do you live in?
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Re: What are electric car's batteries made of?

Unread postby ralfy » Sun 08 Feb 2015, 03:10:01

Also, most countries are poor, which means rough roads (if there are any) and lack of infrastructure or facilities. Even buses and trains are lacking.
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Re: What are electric car's batteries made of?

Unread postby Longtimber » Sun 08 Feb 2015, 14:52:59

Roads, we don't need no stinking roads.
http://www.amazon.com/Prodeco-Electric- ... B00APBSBS2
There is a youtube video of a LiFe Battery CEO in China roto tilling his factories Batteries into his family garden just to prove a point.
I wonder what % of Lead Acid Batteries produced in the last 100 years have actually been recycled? They are discarded all over the Countryside in Rural states.
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Re: What are electric car's batteries made of?

Unread postby Revi » Mon 09 Feb 2015, 10:04:15

pstarr wrote:Revi, it's crazy to imagine a golf cart sharing a commute with a semi. Or a blizzard. What world do you live in?

I live in Maine and I share my commute with log trucks and all sorts of stuff. We put it away in the winter, but we drive it around all the time when the snow melts.
It's about as dangerous as a motorcycle.
Image
It has doors and doesn't have a solar panel, but this one is really neat.
The world's going to change, and we are trying things out.

NEV's seem to work pretty well. We have had one for about 10 years now. We built the first ones:
http://www.sunnev.com/_wizardimages/IVOR_pickup.jpg
Then we found that even if you build a car yourself, you need parts and a service system to really use it, so we got a GEM.
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Re: What are electric car's batteries made of?

Unread postby Revi » Mon 09 Feb 2015, 10:07:13

Here's the one I built with the help of Art Haines, the inventor:
http://www.sunnev.com
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby davep » Mon 20 Apr 2015, 14:11:30

An extremely interesting bit of technology here http://www.gizmag.com/high-energy-density-supercapacitor/37075/

The hybrid supercapacitor is reportedly six times as energy-dense as a commercially available supercapacitor and packs nearly as much energy per unit volume as a lead-acid battery.

...

Like other supercapacitors, their device charges and discharges very quickly and lasts more than 10,000 recharge cycles. But, according the scientists, their invention also stores six times more energy than a conventional supercapacitor, holding more than twice as much charge as a typical thin-film lithium battery in one fifth the thickness of a sheet of paper.

...

Supercapacitors are usually stacked on top of each other and packaged into a single unit, but the researchers have been able to take advantage of the thinness of their device by integrating it inside a solar cell array. In this application, it was found that the supercapacitor could quickly store electrical charge generated by a solar cell during the day, hold the charge until evening, and then power an LED overnight.

This is just one of many potential uses for the technology.


But of course, the difficulty is getting from the lab to commercial production (see algae biofuels etc).
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Graeme » Sun 31 May 2015, 22:22:10

New “Designer” Energy Storage Breakthrough Packs 3 Football Fields Into 1 Ounce of Carbon

Lithium-ion technology is still the gold standard for energy storage as demonstrated by the popularity of the new Powerwall battery, Tesla Energy’s much-publicized foray into Li-ion energy storage for homes and businesses. However, some new technologies are sneaking up behind. In the latest development, lithium-sulfur batteries could benefit from a new “designer carbon” engineered by a team of researchers at Stanford University.

The new designer carbon material could have a variety of applications, but the Stanford University team has zeroed in on the energy storage potential, particularly in respect to lithium-sulfur (Li-S) batteries.

The new material is actually a synthetic form of bio-based activated carbon. For those of you new to the topic, activated carbon is a common material that shows up in water filters and deodorizers, among many other things — but not energy storage devices, at least not yet.


Here are a couple of snippets from the new study:

For example, raising the processing temperature from 750 degrees Fahrenheit (400 degrees Celsius) to 1,650 F (900 C) resulted in a 10-fold increase in pore volume.

Subsequent processing produced carbon material with a record-high surface area of 4,073 square meters per gram – the equivalent of three American football fields packed into an ounce of carbon. The maximum surface area achieved with conventional activated carbon is about 3,000 square meters per gram.


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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 31 May 2015, 23:34:47

Graeme wrote:"The new material is actually a synthetic form of bio-based activated carbon."
That must be biochar?
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Just sprinkle on the pixie dust and . . . poof, there goes all our problems. :razz:
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby sparky » Mon 01 Jun 2015, 04:53:20

.
If wishes were fishes ..everyone would be fishing ! 8)
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Graeme » Mon 22 Jun 2015, 16:18:17

24M emerges from stealth mode with new semi-solid Li-ion cell; <$100/kWh by 2020

Stealth-mode battery start-up 24M has introduced its new semi-solid lithium-ion cell. Co-founded by MIT’s Dr. Yet-Ming Chiang, 24M’s Chief Scientist, the company is leveraging existing, preferred energy storage chemistry but using a new cell design with semi-solid (a mixture of solid and liquid phases) thick electrodes and manufacturing innovations to deliver what it says will be up to a 50% reduction in current Li-ion costs. (Dr. Chiang was also a co-founder of A123 Systems; 24M originated as an A123 spinout. Earlier post.)

Together, our inventions achieve what lithium-ion has yet to do—meet the ultra-low cost targets of the grid and transportation industries. By 2020 our battery costs will be less than $100 a kilowatt-hour (kWh). We’re emerging at the right time with the right technology,” said Throop Wilder, 24M CEO.

Until now, the energy storage field has had two options to try to drive down costs—high volume production or entirely new chemistries that may never move from the lab to the commercial floor. 24M says it is presenting a third option.


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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Graeme » Tue 23 Jun 2015, 20:05:33

New Analysis Center Releases First Report, Evaluates Opportunities in Electric Vehicle Battery Market

The Energy Department's Clean Energy Manufacturing Analysis Center (CEMAC) today announced the release of Automotive Lithium-ion Battery Supply Chain and U.S. Competitiveness Considerations, its first research product. CEMAC's analysis shows how, with increasing demand for electric and hybrid electric vehicles and with lithium-ion battery (LIB) producers locating in close proximity to automotive manufacturers, the United States has a growing opportunity in automotive LIBs. As companies make further investments in United States-based automotive LIB manufacturing, America has potential to be a leader in the current $9 billion global automotive LIB market, which is expected to reach $14.3 billion by 2020.


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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Tue 23 Jun 2015, 21:14:46

Graeme wrote:Tesla Begins Battery Swap Pilot Program in California


Or, not so much. As of 6/10/15, it looks like people aren't very interested:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/ca ... tery-swap/

Musk: Tesla "unlikely" to pursue battery swapping stations

At a Tesla shareholder meeting, Elon Musk hinted that the electric carmaker may give up its plans to build fast battery swap stations.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Graeme » Tue 23 Jun 2015, 21:39:49

OS, Just saw this when I answered Tanada.

Even if battery-swap stations become abundant, fast-swapping as a source of revenue for Tesla may never be more profitable than the theoretical fast-swapping was when it earned Tesla many highly lucrative ZEV credits. Since Tesla only builds ZEVs, it has no need for the ZEV credits it earns. Instead, it sells them to other automakers that are either out of compliance or hedging against stricter regulations coming in the future. In 2013, Tesla reported revenue of $129.8 million from its sale of ZEV credits. Without that money, the company wouldn’t have turned a profit.

But CARB has since closed the fast-refueling loophole, and Tesla will have to document that its customers are actually using fast-swapping stations before the company can claim the extra credits. Analisa Bevan, chief of sustainable transportation technology at CARB, anticipates that Tesla will follow through with its swapping scheme even though the credit incentive for fast refueling disappears a­ltogether three years from now.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Tue 23 Jun 2015, 22:25:24

Graeme wrote:New Analysis Center Releases First Report, Evaluates Opportunities in Electric Vehicle Battery Market

The Energy Department's Clean Energy Manufacturing Analysis Center (CEMAC) today announced the release of Automotive Lithium-ion Battery Supply Chain and U.S. Competitiveness Considerations, its first research product. CEMAC's analysis shows how, with increasing demand for electric and hybrid electric vehicles and with lithium-ion battery (LIB) producers locating in close proximity to automotive manufacturers, the United States has a growing opportunity in automotive LIBs. As companies make further investments in United States-based automotive LIB manufacturing, America has potential to be a leader in the current $9 billion global automotive LIB market, which is expected to reach $14.3 billion by 2020.


energy

Interesting. Thanks for the link.

The saddest part of the article, to me, was the last paragraph:

To achieve parity, major infrastructure improvements are required. The hope is that by 2050, renewable energy sources will provide the electricity to recharge BEVs and to produce FCV hydrogen via electrolysis for less environmental impact.

So as we are cooking the planet with hydrocarbons, we HOPE that by 35 years from now, green energy sources will let us power the fraction of the auto fleet made up of BEV's and FCV's in service. (Presumably in America, currently with the biggest economy in the world).

One wonders how bad the climate has to get before "Joe everyman" gets some sense of URGENCY about the AGW and air pollution problems.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Graeme » Tue 23 Jun 2015, 22:54:50

It said BY 2050. Funny we're talking about this today because I'm communicating with an American startup who can make a pack which produces hydrogen in the vehicle. No need for external infrastructure. Stay tuned.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Graeme » Thu 25 Jun 2015, 17:29:16

BioSolar Claims Huge Lithium-Ion Battery Technology Breakthrough — Better Capacity, Longer Life, & Lower Costs (Reportedly)

The energy storage technology company BioSolar has claimed a breakthrough in the field of lithium-ion batteries, according to a recent press release.

To be more specific, the company has claimed that a technology that it’s currently developing can significantly expand the life, increase the energy capacity, and lower the costs associated with lithium-ion batteries.


Image

According to the BioSolar (based on internal analyses), a battery model built using the company’s new technology could double the range of a Tesla electric vehicle (EV) while costing roughly 4 times less than its current battery. As well, it could reportedly improve the lifespan of the battery and improve charging times. The company thinks that the technology could allow for a $100/kilowatt-hour milestone to be crossed — potentially leading to far greater EV sales numbers. (Note that it’s widely assumed Tesla’s battery packs cost well under $400/kWh — closer to $200/kWh or $300/kWh — so that makes the “4 times less” claim quite questionable.)


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