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THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Tue 23 Jun 2015, 22:25:24

Graeme wrote:New Analysis Center Releases First Report, Evaluates Opportunities in Electric Vehicle Battery Market

The Energy Department's Clean Energy Manufacturing Analysis Center (CEMAC) today announced the release of Automotive Lithium-ion Battery Supply Chain and U.S. Competitiveness Considerations, its first research product. CEMAC's analysis shows how, with increasing demand for electric and hybrid electric vehicles and with lithium-ion battery (LIB) producers locating in close proximity to automotive manufacturers, the United States has a growing opportunity in automotive LIBs. As companies make further investments in United States-based automotive LIB manufacturing, America has potential to be a leader in the current $9 billion global automotive LIB market, which is expected to reach $14.3 billion by 2020.


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Interesting. Thanks for the link.

The saddest part of the article, to me, was the last paragraph:

To achieve parity, major infrastructure improvements are required. The hope is that by 2050, renewable energy sources will provide the electricity to recharge BEVs and to produce FCV hydrogen via electrolysis for less environmental impact.

So as we are cooking the planet with hydrocarbons, we HOPE that by 35 years from now, green energy sources will let us power the fraction of the auto fleet made up of BEV's and FCV's in service. (Presumably in America, currently with the biggest economy in the world).

One wonders how bad the climate has to get before "Joe everyman" gets some sense of URGENCY about the AGW and air pollution problems.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Graeme » Tue 23 Jun 2015, 22:54:50

It said BY 2050. Funny we're talking about this today because I'm communicating with an American startup who can make a pack which produces hydrogen in the vehicle. No need for external infrastructure. Stay tuned.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Graeme » Thu 25 Jun 2015, 17:29:16

BioSolar Claims Huge Lithium-Ion Battery Technology Breakthrough — Better Capacity, Longer Life, & Lower Costs (Reportedly)

The energy storage technology company BioSolar has claimed a breakthrough in the field of lithium-ion batteries, according to a recent press release.

To be more specific, the company has claimed that a technology that it’s currently developing can significantly expand the life, increase the energy capacity, and lower the costs associated with lithium-ion batteries.


Image

According to the BioSolar (based on internal analyses), a battery model built using the company’s new technology could double the range of a Tesla electric vehicle (EV) while costing roughly 4 times less than its current battery. As well, it could reportedly improve the lifespan of the battery and improve charging times. The company thinks that the technology could allow for a $100/kilowatt-hour milestone to be crossed — potentially leading to far greater EV sales numbers. (Note that it’s widely assumed Tesla’s battery packs cost well under $400/kWh — closer to $200/kWh or $300/kWh — so that makes the “4 times less” claim quite questionable.)


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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Graeme » Fri 26 Jun 2015, 17:15:27

Samsung Develops Tech to Double Lithium Battery Capacity

The research arm of Samsung Electronics announced on June 25 that it has developed a technology to make a silicon cathode material for coating high crystal graphene on a silicon surface to realize an energy density almost two times more than that of existing lithium batteries.

Existing lithium batteries, which were developed and commercialized by Sony in the 90’s, has been developed in a way of extending the capacity rather than increasing the life and density owing to limitations of material itself. The expansion of capacity has remained at best two times more than that of the first commercialized batteries.


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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby ennui2 » Wed 01 Jul 2015, 19:58:29

Graeme wrote:I'm communicating with an American startup who can make a pack which produces hydrogen in the vehicle.


Sounds like another perpetual motion scam.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Wed 01 Jul 2015, 23:23:43

According to the post, the battery swap is expected to cost "slightly less than a full tank of gasoline for a premium sedan." This jibes with the estimates discussed last year, which put the cost in the $60-80 range. However, Model S battery packs have a rated design life, and customers would be expected to eventually return to the swap station and reclaim their car’s original pack; failure to do so would incur a fee equal to the difference in value between the two battery packs (there are no details as to how high this fee might be, but out-of-warranty battery pack replacements for the Model S can range as high as $12,000).
http://arstechnica.com/cars/2014/12/tes ... ack-swaps/

Weird. So they will store your original battery for years(???) at these stations while you drive around wearing out their battery with many discharge cycles, and then you come back to reclaim the original?
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby sparky » Wed 01 Jul 2015, 23:36:00

.
That's the old business model of the stage coach ,
..... get there change horses (for a fee) , the old set get a break and rest ,
to be swapped to the next coach coming along ,
as long as the nags are not half dead , the customer can complain but has little choice but to take what he is given
his choices are
1-to get lucky and get a fine set
2-to slip a bit of money to get the best available
3-to pull a flintlock pistol threatening mayhem (doesn't work , the stage coach boss would pull a blunderbuss )
4-to do without and use the same old worn down set

the profit of a swap should cover the cost and take old crappy batteries out of circulation

Batteries don't wear out , they loose their capacity , the human equivalent of getting old
all the materials making the battery can be easily recycled , especially if there is only a few models .
beside avoiding disposal hassle and lawsuits , it make good business sense
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Thu 02 Jul 2015, 00:20:20

sparky wrote:.
That's the old business model of the stage coach ,
..... get there change horses (for a fee) , the old set get a break and rest ,
to be swapped to the next coach coming along ,
As described in the arstechnica article, Tesla is going to pasture your horses until you come back and reclaim them.
sparky wrote:as long as the nags are not half dead , the customer can complain but has little choice but to take what he is given
his choices are
1-to get lucky and get a fine set
2-to slip a bit of money to get the best available
3-to pull a flintlock pistol threatening mayhem (doesn't work , the stage coach boss would pull a blunderbuss )
4-to do without and use the same old worn down set

the profit of a swap should cover the cost and take old crappy batteries out of circulation

Batteries don't wear out , they loose their capacity , the human equivalent of getting old
But, don't they last longer if they are in storage and not used?
sparky wrote:all the materials making the battery can be easily recycled , especially if there is only a few models .
beside avoiding disposal hassle and lawsuits , it make good business sense
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby dolanbaker » Thu 02 Jul 2015, 03:06:07

Surely this is like buying bottled gas, you pay for the first cylinder and then when you go for a refill it gets swapped and all you pay for is the fuel (charge) and maintenance fees for the cylinder (battery).
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Thu 02 Jul 2015, 11:27:13

dolanbaker wrote:Surely this is like buying bottled gas, you pay for the first cylinder and then when you go for a refill it gets swapped and all you pay for is the fuel (charge) and maintenance fees for the cylinder (battery).
That's what I'm trying to figure out.

My first cylinder has a (legally required) expiry date stamped into it, but I don't have to worry about that - the company just keeps swapping me unexpired cylinders. I never have to "reclaim" my first cylinder.

But can I just keep swapping my Tesla batteries every few years for a ~$100 fee (when they lose capacity)? There must be a catch somewhere in the fine print.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby ennui2 » Thu 02 Jul 2015, 12:38:40

I mentioned in another thread that Tesla is abandoning battery-swaps. I don't know why there's a discussion about it like it still might take off.

http://arstechnica.com/cars/2015/06/tes ... st-enough/
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Graeme » Tue 14 Jul 2015, 18:02:53

Bosch & GS Yuasa on-target to double battery energy density & half costs by 2020

German supplier Robert Bosch and Japanese battery partner GS Yuasa Corp. are "on a good path" toward their goal of developing a lithium ion battery that costs half as much as today's batteries but has twice the energy density, a top Bosch executive said.

The companies aim to produce such a battery by 2020, Wolz said. "We are on a good path to reach that target," he told reporters.

Achieving such performance in automotive power packs will be a major breakthrough in popularizing electrified drivetrains, Wolz said.

Bosch is positioning vehicle electrification as a pillar of growth as carmakers tap batteries to meet increasingly stringent emissions regulations. The supplier expects hybrid and electric-only drivetrains to account for 15 percent of the global automotive market by 2020, Wolz said.


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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Graeme » Fri 24 Jul 2015, 18:17:13

LG Chem Pushes Australian Battery Storage Prices Further Down The Curve

The competition in the nascent battery storage market continues to intensify, with South Korean appliance manufacturers LG Chem launching a new 6.4kWh battery storage system that approaches the key $1,000/kWh mark.

The new battery storage system is being made available to consumers in the next few weeks, and follows the release into the Australian market of AU Optronics, promoted by AGL Energy, and rival offerings from Samsung, Enphase, Panasonic and SMA.

But the LG Chem system is already bringing costs down at the top end of the market – matching the assumed pricing of the much vaunted Tesla Powerwall, with the advantage that it is actually in the market.

LG’s Chem Residential Energy Storage Unit (RESU) 6.4kWhr battery is similar in size, shape and capacity, to the Tesla offering, and is expected to last 15 to 20 years, or at least 6,000 cycles. It is being offered in Australia at $A6,898. The first supplies have arrived in Australia via wholesalers Solar Juice.

LG Chem, in its blurb to installers, says it expect the units to have a retail price of a bit more than $1000 per kW/h ex GST plus inverter solution. “The cost curve will come down over time,” it says.

The units can be upgraded to a total of 12.8kWh with 3.2kWh expansion units. LG Chem says these are expected to be slightly more than 50% of the RESU 6.4Ex price.

Jeff Wehl, from Brisbane-based Ecoelectric, says the technology will easily defy grid costs with a typical cost per kWhr of around 15 cents over 15 years.


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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Graeme » Wed 29 Jul 2015, 16:55:22

UK Energy Storage Startups Take Aim At EV Battery Market

Lithium-ion is the gold standard for chemical energy storage, but a pair of UK companies have been working on alternatives that could knock down the cost of electric vehicles — and knock Li-ion out of the running. The two companies, Oxis Energy and Faradion, caught the eye of the American Chemical Society, which just gave them a huge write-up in its Chemical & Engineering News publication, so let’s take a look and see what’s up.


Image

xis Energy

We were just noticing Oxis Energy, too. Earlier this summer, Oxis announced that it will be ready to bring its lithium-sulfur (Li-S) battery to market next year, and it also entered into a partnership with the home and commercial energy storage installer Anesco.


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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 29 Jul 2015, 22:09:38

Graeme wrote:UK Energy Storage Startups Take Aim At EV Battery Market

Lithium-ion is the gold standard for chemical energy storage, but a pair of UK companies have been working on alternatives that could knock down the cost of electric vehicles — and knock Li-ion out of the running. The two companies, Oxis Energy and Faradion, caught the eye of the American Chemical Society, which just gave them a huge write-up in its Chemical & Engineering News publication, so let’s take a look and see what’s up.


Just once, instead of seeing what's coming in year X (supposedly, according to a self-marketing campaign and future promises), I'd like to see how such a device is actually:

1). Revolutionary.
2). Practical.
3). Competitive in terms of convenience AND cost (without government mandated tax incentives and lots of complexity).
4). Available, conveniently and with no wait, at my local Home Depot.

Funny how with all the green promises that just doesn't seem to happen much, if at all (if price and competitiveness are included as criteria).
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Thu 30 Jul 2015, 01:32:16

The various criteria are summarised on these charts:
ImageImageImage
See
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/arti ... _batteries
for captions.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby StarvingLion » Thu 30 Jul 2015, 02:46:59

Forget it, its over. The PHD scientist flunkies are scientifically illiterate, nevermind the general public. They are so clueless that they don't even understand the common mistakes of basic physics in the textbooks such as:

1. The Earth goes around the sun. It doesn't, and in fact, this is just as wrong as saying the sun goes round the Earth. Both positions implicitly advocate there's some privileged and special frame of reference in which to view the universe, and Einstein says there isn't one. It's sort of like people who say there's no such thing as centrifugal force: stand inside a rotating reference frame and derive Newton's Laws and yes, yes it exists, and yes, yes it's real. The mistake: "some reference frames are more true than others." The reality: "you pay your money and you take your frame of reference."

2. Conservation of energy. Conservation of energy only happens in a static spacetime; astronomy says our spacetime is dynamical; energy is not conserved in our universe.

3. E=mc**2. Only true for objects at rest, and pretty much nothing in the universe is at rest. The real equation is E**2=m**2c**4 + p**2c**2. This is why light can have energy without mass: a photon's energy is carried entirely in its momentum.

4. If you measure a particle's position, you'll necessarily tweak its velocity. That's the Uncertainty Principle. No, that's the Observer Effect. The Uncertainty Principle isn't a statement about the fidelity of our measurement apparatus: it's a statement about the total information available, period. If you think the data actually exists but we just can't measure it, then you're subscribing to a Hidden Variables interpretation of quantum mechanics, and the Aspect experiments put a pretty comprehensive set of nails in that coffin.

... and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

The Anglo-Saxon banking system is degenerate.

You may as well stick your head in a gas oven...its hopeless.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby ennui2 » Thu 30 Jul 2015, 12:43:13

Outcast_Searcher wrote:One wonders how bad the climate has to get before "Joe everyman" gets some sense of URGENCY about the AGW and air pollution problems.


No question that the frog needs to boil in the pot first.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Thu 30 Jul 2015, 15:21:53

StarvingLion wrote: The PHD scientist flunkies are scientifically illiterate, nevermind the general public. They are so clueless that they don't even understand the common mistakes of basic physics in the textbooks such as:
1234
If you read the scientific literature, you will find that we understand this stuff. What you see in textbooks is simplified.

Do you have an actual relativity textbook that gets 4 wrong as you describe?
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 21 May 2016, 03:53:52

This seems to be the place to discuss the Tesla Powerwall, which did in fact go into production early this year, has been shipping since Mid-January 2016 using Panasonic batteries, and produced in Fremont CA near the Tesla automobile factory. Note that the early production units were all of the smaller residential unit, earlier described as the "7 kwh" model. The "10 kwh" residential unit did not ship and was later cancelled. The "100 kwh Powerpack" commercial version has yet to ship.

Tesla appears to be producing these units at a loss at the present time, and using Panasonic batteries exclusively. Plans for revised products are already announced from the Gigafactory in 2nd half of 2016.

In April, 12 months after the product announcement, unflattering reviews of the Powerwall Version 1 were published:

What's more, a detailed reading of the Powerwall manufacturer’s warranty reveals that Tesla guarantees a lot less storage than originally advertised for its 7-kilowatt-hour daily cycling battery system.

Specifically, the warranty covers 740 cycles or 85 percent of 6.4 kilowatt-hours (so 5.4 kilowatt-hours) of capacity for the first two years -- whichever comes first. Then it covers 4.6 kilowatt-hours for three years or 1,087 cycles. And finally, it covers 3.8 kilowatt-hours for five years or 2,368 cycles.

Based on these figures, SolarQuotes estimated that each kilowatt-hour delivered from a Powerwall would end up costing an average of AUD$0.50 (US$0.39), making it more expensive than the residential storage offerings from Aquion, Redflow and Sunverge.

The calculations do not include the cost of an inverter, which would push the upfront bill to AUD$12,000 ($9,265) and the per-kilowatt-hour cost to AUD$0.75 ($0.58).


Rest of article: http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/is-teslas-powerwall-luster-already-fading

There were also detailed analysis of payback periods, using the installed cost of entire solar PV systems, including installations in Australia, Germany, and the USA:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2015/05/01/why-teslas-powerwall-is-just-another-toy-for-rich-green-people/#1730a2854879

http://instituteforenergyresearch.org/analysis/payback-on-teslas-powerwall-battery/

https://web.archive.org/web/20160108035235/http:/www.engadget.com/2016/01/07/study-a-tesla-powerwall-pays-for-itself-after-nearly-40-years/

Tesla got the above article changed, this is the current version:

http://www.engadget.com/2016/01/07/study-a-tesla-powerwall-pays-for-itself-after-nearly-40-years/

http://instituteforenergyresearch.org/analysis/tesla-fails-to-refute-iers-powerwall-article

Bottom Line: Although it makes sense when your house is off-the-grid, Powerwall is not an economical solution. For example, I produce power from my grid-tied rooftop solar PV at USD$0.31/kwh, using some pricey 6-year-old PV panels. But with today's cheaper PV and Powerwall, the price goes to USD$0.59/kwh. (Which analysis does not include the probability of replacing the Powerwall twice during the assumed 30-year life of the PV panels and inverters.) (You could choose to believe that Tesla can make 30-year batteries, but I would not, the warranty is 10 years.)
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