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THE Bailout Thread pt 3 (merged)

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of hydrocarbon depletion.

Re: GM to put brakes on Volt engine assembly if bailout fail

Unread postby CarlosFerreira » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 17:40:21

vaseline2008 wrote:
dorlomin wrote:Does anyone here think there is enough Lithium in the world to make lithium ion batteries a major replacement for oil?

Plantagenet hit the nail on the head IMO, its vapour. Either that or its bailout bait.

Here are some comparisons with Lead and Lithium. There is supposed to be more Lithium in the Earth's crust than Lead. I chose lead because there are so many lead acid batteries already in use all over the world in our cars.
Lead
Lithium


I was worrying about this same problem just last night. Thanks for the links.

About R&D time: did anyone notice how long have the VW group been taking to send out a hybrid? They're on the case for a couple of years now, and Porsche (which bought a lot of VW and is essentially a sister company) is at is as well, and still they can't put the wretched thing in production.
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Re: GM to put brakes on Volt engine assembly if bailout fail

Unread postby CarlosFerreira » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 17:46:20




Dead men don't deliver

FT wrote:The White House said on Thursday it was considering an “orderly” bankruptcy for the US’s stricken auto companies in its clearest warning yet that General Motors or Chrysler could be forced to file for Chapter 11 protection or similar measures.

Dana Perino, President George W. Bush’s spokeswoman, told reporters the administration was “very close” to making a decision as to how to help the two companies, which have said they need an emergency $15bn to continue operations until the end of March.
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Re: GM to put brakes on Volt engine assembly if bailout fail

Unread postby cube » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 18:25:42

vaseline2008 wrote:
dorlomin wrote:Does anyone here think there is enough Lithium in the world to make lithium ion batteries a major replacement for oil?

Plantagenet hit the nail on the head IMO, its vapour. Either that or its bailout bait.

Here are some comparisons with Lead and Lithium. There is supposed to be more Lithium in the Earth's crust than Lead. I chose lead because there are so many lead acid batteries already in use all over the world in our cars.
Lead
Lithium
There has been endless debates about what the car of the future will run on. However there is one idea that is not very popular on this forum and perhaps not very popular IRL.
Here's the cube scenario.
how about NO car
I think PO will kill off the concept of single car ownership for 90% of society. How will you go from pt A to pt B?
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yeah I know it's not sexy.
I have a really bad habit of saying things that people do NOT want to hear ---> The Truth!
//
getting back to the Chevy Volt is it just me or does anyone else here think it's weird that they are advertising a car with a gasoline engine as being "electric"??? :?
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Re: GM to put brakes on Volt engine assembly if bailout fail

Unread postby dorlomin » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 18:26:56

CarlosFerreira wrote:
I was worrying about this same problem just last night. Thanks for the links.

About R&D time: did anyone notice how long have the VW group been taking to send out a hybrid? They're on the case for a couple of years now, and Porsche (which bought a lot of VW and is essentially a sister company) is at is as well, and still they can't put the wretched thing in production.
The Gruniad pussy foot around the issue. It seems to be opaque. But it does not look like we have anywhere near the capacity to replace a significant portion of our current fleets with lithium yet. The idea that we could ratchet up a technology from powering hand helds to powering a fleet of cars without hitting cost and scaleability issues is more than I am willing to swallow.

Additionaly finding new sources of energy for the grid to charge these wonder cars will be another headache down the road.

I cant see lithium ion batteries being much more than a niche to allow bigger cars to use less petrol. For the luxuary market only (imo).
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Re: GM to put brakes on Volt engine assembly if bailout fail

Unread postby CarlosFerreira » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 19:04:01

dorlomin wrote:The Gruniad pussy foot[/url] around the issue. It seems to be opaque. But it does not look like we have anywhere near the capacity to replace a significant portion of our current fleets with lithium yet. The idea that we could ratchet up a technology from powering hand helds to powering a fleet of cars without hitting cost and scaleability issues is more than I am willing to swallow.

Additionaly finding new sources of energy for the grid to charge these wonder cars will be another headache down the road.

I cant see lithium ion batteries being much more than a niche to allow bigger cars to use less petrol. For the luxuary market only (imo).


It's not just that. Everybody wants a piece of the action.

Common Tragedies wrote:One of scarier shotgun marriages being tossed around liberal circles lately has been the green auto bailout. This is the idea that we can save Detroit by giving them money in exchange for their commitment to build a fleet of electric vehicles. The only problem is that they don’t currently know how to do that. Specifically, the battery technology is years away, while Detroit needs the money yesterday. But many of the true believers remain undeterred, suggesting that we can pay Detroit to build the car “shells” now, and store them until the batteries are ready. [I'll let you insert your own 5 year plan joke here.]

So I was already thinking about this today when Tmoney emailed me a Wall Street Journal article (sub. required) reporting on a consortium of US battery manufactures seeking $1 billion in US loans to manufacture batteries in the United States. Now I’m all for subsidizing R&D, but there were some unsettling justifications for the program subtly weaved into the narrative. It’s not that electric car batteries don’t exist, they just don’t exist at a competitive price. Tesla will gladly sell you an electric roadster for $100K. So you’d think that if we really want a fleet of electric cars, we’d be trying to get the batteries from the cheapest source available. Think again. The battery industry has largely migrated from the US to Asia over the past two decades because of cheaper costs and locational spillovers (where do all of your electronics come from?). But this loan would stipulate that all of the money be spent in the US, creating green jobs (there’s bird number two). There is also the vague warning from unspecified “experts” that “battery technology and manufacturing capacity could become as strategically important as oil is today” (and there’s the third bird, national security). I’m no battery expert, but I fail to see the parallels with oil, a geographically concentrated, finite natural resource.



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Re: GM to put brakes on Volt engine assembly if bailout fail

Unread postby shortonsense » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 20:22:50

cube wrote: However there is one idea that is not very popular on this forum and perhaps not very popular IRL.
Here's the cube scenario.
how about NO car
I think PO will kill off the concept of single car ownership for 90% of society. How will you go from pt A to pt B?


You aren't the only one asking that question.

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2008/1222/042.html

Everytime someone proclaims peak oil as the end of cars, I think to myself, all it requires is a different business model.
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Bush ponders bankruptcy package, not bailout for automakers

Unread postby Ache » Fri 19 Dec 2008, 00:25:44

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/orl-auto ... 2227.story

The White House said Thursday that, instead of a financial bailout, it was considering a so-called pre-packaged bankruptcy plan for General Motors and Chrysler, a move that many congressional Republicans favor but the automakers and some analysts say could lead to the companies' collapse.

Bush administration officials, while still weighing their final set of options, were "very close" to a decision, White House spokeswoman Dana Perino said.

The White House, hoping to shield the battered U.S. economy from further damage, pledged earlier this month to help Detroit stay afloat after Congress deadlocked on a bailout.

But it was clear that time was growing short. Already, GM, Chrysler and Ford have announced dramatic steps to cut costs, including idling plants and slowing production - steps that add to the country's immediate economic woes even though they may be necessary to the companies' ultimate survival. Chrysler said Wednesday it was closing its 30 factories in U.S. and Canada for at least a month.
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Re: Bush ponders bankruptcy package, not bailout for automak

Unread postby Armageddon » Fri 19 Dec 2008, 01:14:18

Subsidize their collapse ?
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Re: GM to put brakes on Volt engine assembly if bailout fail

Unread postby cube » Fri 19 Dec 2008, 03:05:17

The Urban Age Institute forecasts 27 "mega-cities"--those with 10 million or more people--by 2015. Eighteen of them, it says, will be in Asia.

To deal with the challenge, automakers are dreaming up all kinds of high-tech solutions.
THIS is the problem with society, 9 out of 10 people have a fetish for *high-tech* solutions.
PO is NOT about finding a high-tech solution, it's about slamming into a wall at 65mph and then trying to rebuild something new out of all the broken pieces lying around.
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Re: GM to put brakes on Volt engine assembly if bailout fail

Unread postby yesplease » Fri 19 Dec 2008, 05:15:25

mos6507 wrote:You can extrapolate that yes, drivers will change their habits due to high oil prices. You can not extrapolate that this alone (in an economy NOT hobbled by the credit crisis) will moderate prices to this extent. The dropoff in oil demand is largely not due to individual drivers driving less or switching to fuel efficient cars, but the big drop in industrial activity due to the credit crunch.
It isn't even a drop-off in current demand so much as a perceived drop-off in demand (both private and business) over the next couple years, combined w/ OPEC not fulfilling (only ~1.25mbpd so far) their stated production cuts.
mos6507 wrote:So the disheartening message of demand destruction is that individual drivers do not have as much of a lever on gas prices as previously thought. As long as industrial activity snaps back and tries to expand it will push oil prices higher even in the face of universal cutbacks in personal gas consumption.
Individual consumers, not just as drivers, have a pretty darn big impact on oil prices. Cutting back on air travel and driving in the U.S. alone resulted in a ~.4-.5+mbpd drop in consumption over the last six months, which was evidently enough to get the drop from ~$145/bbl going, and the apparent global recession seems to have sealed the deal. Since January of 2008, consumption has only exceeded production by less than ~.1mbpd, and if it wasn't for the reduction in consumption in the U.S. that would've been closer to ~.5mbpd, probably enough to see ~$60-80/bbl+. During the first four months consumption outpaced production by ~.9mbpd, and oil prices reached a maximum about a month after. But during the next six months production outpaced consumption by ~.7mbpd, and only recently in November have OPEC's 1.25mbpd cuts resulted in a 1.32mbpd production shortfall.

To sum it up, give or take a month lag due to lack of data, prices went up when production could not meet consumption, and went down when consumption could not meet production. Recently, production hasn't met consumption due to OPEC's cuts, which is probably why we saw quite a bit of time in the ~$40-50/bbl range, but given a world recession it does not look like people believe OPEC will be able to cut production in line w/ the potential drop in consumption. Probably because they've claimed ~2+mbpd in cuts but only delivered about half that.
mos6507 wrote:There must be a way to get oil out of society as a whole, not just personal transportation. Even if everyone drives an EV, any savings gained in personal transportation will go out the door again in the increased cost of oil intensive goods.
Personal transportation is the easiest to do and a fair number of people as well as local government's already want it. While it would only reduce consumption by a fraction of a percent, the recent jump to ~$145/bbl and drop back down was only caused by a ~.1mbpd shortfall during the last eleven months, which is a .1% difference between consumption and production, but it cost roughly $1.5 trillion extra. As the world's biggest consumer the U.S. dedicates about half of it's oil supply, so around 10% of world supply, to automobiles. .1% of world supply would be 1% of U.S. auto consumption, so if programs such as CA's ZEV mandate had been successful and had been adopted by the other states that follow CARB's lead, we could've seen 1% of the nation's fleet as pure electric vehicles, using no gas/oil. Assuming a $20,000 addition per vehicle, which is what low volume runs cost, probably about twice the premium of mass produced versions, we would have payed an extra ~$62 billion compared to the current fleet. Paying ~$4 billion per year over 15 years so we don't have to pay an extra $250+ billion over one year and the world doesn't have to pay an extra $750+ billion over that same year year seems worthwhile. Especially since those vehicles would probably be at cost parity for their owners and save the state money in terms of externalized costs such as pollution. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure and all that...
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Re: GM to put brakes on Volt engine assembly if bailout fail

Unread postby yesplease » Fri 19 Dec 2008, 05:20:09

cube wrote:THIS is the problem with society, 9 out of 10 people have a fetish for *high-tech* solutions.
PO is NOT about finding a high-tech solution, it's about slamming into a wall at 65mph and then trying to rebuild something new out of all the broken pieces lying around.
PO is about whatever changes people want to make to deal w/ higher oil prices. Some can ride the bus and some can drive EVs. That said, PO is not about slamming into a wall at 65mph, since according to many on the forum back in 2005, that's what $100+/bbl would do, but here we are, on the other side, using less and in one piece. The assumption that PO is like slamming into a wall at 65mph assumes we wouldn't make any changes at all, yet here we are back at $30+/bbl because it's cheaper to cut back on consumption than anything else, and when it isn't people will transition to alternatives.
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Re: Bailout Counter

Unread postby billg » Fri 19 Dec 2008, 09:39:09

In an article in the most recent Economist, former Federal Reserve President Alan "Greenscam" calls on the taxpayers to provide another $250 billion for bailing out the banking system.

CNBC
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Re: No Bailout!! Let the US automakers go bankrupt

Unread postby AlexdeLarge » Fri 19 Dec 2008, 09:43:21

Image
Viddy well, little brother. Viddy well.
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British Automakers Need Bailout Too

Unread postby vaseline2008 » Fri 19 Dec 2008, 12:27:31

Britain says will do all it can to help carmakers
LONDON, Dec 19 - The British government wants to help the car industry through the economic downturn but the main responsibility lies with the carmakers' owners, Prime Minister Gordon Brown said on Friday. Speculation has grown this week that the government is about to step in to support car manufacturers as the credit crunch takes its toll on industry. "We want to do everything we can to help the car industry through these difficult times," Brown told a news conference.

He said it was "very important to recognise that the first responsibility for the running of a particular company lies with the company itself." "We are happy to debate these issues with the car industry but I'm not able ... to announce any particular decisions today," he said. Brown's comments came as Derek Simpson, joint general secretary of the Unite union, urged the government to provide short-term financial assistance to Britain's car industry before Christmas.

OK what's next then...Germany, Japan, and Italy?
Last edited by Ferretlover on Wed 08 Apr 2009, 09:13:38, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Merged with THE Bailout Thread pt 2.
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Re: GM to put brakes on Volt engine assembly if bailout fail

Unread postby vaseline2008 » Fri 19 Dec 2008, 12:58:59

CarlosFerreira wrote:
vaseline2008 wrote:
dorlomin wrote:Does anyone here think there is enough Lithium in the world to make lithium ion batteries a major replacement for oil?

Plantagenet hit the nail on the head IMO, its vapour. Either that or its bailout bait.

Here are some comparisons with Lead and Lithium. There is supposed to be more Lithium in the Earth's crust than Lead. I chose lead because there are so many lead acid batteries already in use all over the world in our cars.
Lead
Lithium


I was worrying about this same problem just last night. Thanks for the links.

About R&D time: did anyone notice how long have the VW group been taking to send out a hybrid? They're on the case for a couple of years now, and Porsche (which bought a lot of VW and is essentially a sister company) is at is as well, and still they can't put the wretched thing in production.

According to this site, in the UK it's supposed to be out 2009.
Revealed: Volkswagen's 69.9-MPG Diesel Hybrid
So -- is Volkswagen going to build it? VW says it's just a concept at this point, but Auto Bild says it is "more than a concept car" and Auto Express flat-out says "the first hybrid Golfs are expected here (meaning Britain) late next year."

But who really knows...as for Porsche, they own like 75% of Volkswagen now. Oh BTW, the VW Hybrid uses nickel-metal, not Li-Ion. Citroen also has on in the works too.

As for the "car of the future", remember the evolutionary process usually happens in steps. IMO, we will be reliant on gasoline for a while because of the current infrastructure that's already in place. Fossil Fuel-Hybrids are going to be the next type to replace "all gasoline powered" engines. Remember, the whole gas/diesel-electric is nothing new...it's 100 year old technology.

Then the transition to another will happen. Small baby steps.

Now the new buzz word is "Vehicle 2 Grid"...where the excess electricity generated by your car can add to the grid. Well, Nikola Tesla would be happy to hear about this...after all he is the one who invented wireless electricity. Intel and MIT are now just being able to use the same principles and have achieved some success with it. BTW, Tesla concluded that if we were able to harness the Earth's magnetic resonance, we would have "free energy". There are so many things Tesla dreamed of and imagined...I wish he was alive today.
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Re: GM to put brakes on Volt engine assembly if bailout fail

Unread postby CarlosFerreira » Fri 19 Dec 2008, 13:26:17

@ Vaseline

Thanks for that. I had heard about that car, even posted something on my old blog about it. But it's not forthcoming; VW has substituted that Golf generation, that was a prototype. Incidentally, the diesel engine in it is the same as in my old Polo TDI I had back in Portugal. Great little thing, would clock 60mpg at motorway speeds, even with large tyres.

My concern is that we might be seeing the kind of supply destruction that's happening in the oil industry: money's more expensive, fuel's cheaper, people are scared, fewer are buying cars. Why would a carmaker bother building and selling that thing? The sunk cost of R&D these days is horrendous, and a lot of companies are scaling back - GM is a case to point.

The advantage for manufacturers selling cars in Europe is that the commission is implementing a brand-wide CO2 from 2012 (I think) that, if your range emits more than 140 g of CO2/100km, you have to pay. That forces the research and development on. That's positive, as long as policymakers don't pander to industry's whining.

I am looney car aficcionado, but I generally agree with cube. The future will probably be less car intensive. My point here is that, in a world where energy is progressively more scarce (read, more expensive), we will have to look at the most energy-efficient means of transportation. I recommend Figure 1.2, in page 8.
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Re: GM to put brakes on Volt engine assembly if bailout fail

Unread postby mos6507 » Fri 19 Dec 2008, 13:26:27

vaseline2008 wrote:Then the transition to another will happen. Small baby steps.


Baby steps would have been find 10-20 years ago. It won't work fast enough once we fall off the oil plataeu.

vaseline2008 wrote:BTW, Tesla concluded that if we were able to harness the Earth's magnetic resonance, we would have "free energy". There are so many things Tesla dreamed of and imagined...I wish he was alive today.


No he didn't. He wanted to use the ionosphere as a transport mechanism for electricity, but it would still have to be generated via some conventional means, just as HAARP does it today up in Alaska using natural gas. His favored electric generation method was clean hydro power, but even in his time I think he realized there weren't enough hydro resources to power the globe, even with long-distance A/C lines or his wireless idea. Tesla had a VERY CLEAR understanding of where energy comes from. He "got" EROEI. He "got" depletion theory. He "got" limits to growth. He knew humanity was going to hit a brick wall the way so few do even toay. I too wish he were around today. Considering how far he went 100 years ago I'm sure he would have accomplished miracles with modern science.

The Problem of Increasing Human Energy

This essay is so prescient on so many levels I can't even limit myself to quoting the highlights. Every doomer should read it.

Here is a good quote where he talks about solar thermal towers and that he hopes to one day invent photo-voltaic panels.:

"It is probable that we shall soon have a self-acting heat-engine capable of deriving moderate amounts of energy from the ambient medium. There is also a possibility—though a small one—that we may obtain electrical energy direct from the sun. This might be the case if the Maxwellian theory is true, according to which electrical vibrations of all rates should emanate from the sun. I am still investigating this subject."

He totally saw where things were headed except for wireless power transmission which is too inefficient and potentially dangerous to deploy as he envisioned it.
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Re: Bush ponders bankruptcy package, not bailout for automak

Unread postby heroineworshipper » Fri 19 Dec 2008, 14:39:52

Taxpayer funded SUV factories work. Take a look.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPThF-LQXH0
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Re: No Bailout!! Let the US automakers go bankrupt

Unread postby fireplaceguy » Fri 19 Dec 2008, 15:34:06

AlexdeLarge wrote:Image


Now THAT sums it up! Nice find, Alex!
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Re: Surprise surprise - bailout talk for Madoff victims

Unread postby dohboi » Fri 19 Dec 2008, 16:42:20

RE wrote:

"Which side will you stand on Dohboi?"

Hmmm. I would hope that would be clear from the general tenor of my posts. But I would like your insights into particular movements you think will be/are being most effective. In my experience, by the time a movement becomes any kind of threat or shows any promise of effective resistance, it quickly gets infiltrated, co-opted...

So I haven't been much of joiner.
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