THE Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR) Thread (merged)

[Iaato]

Rep. Don Young (R- AK) and Roscoe Bartlett (R-Md) have just introduced a bill in Congress that would open ANWR and mandate that the federal government use the billions of dollars it would receive in leasing and federal tax receipts from the development of ANWR for alternative energy research. The ANWR money could fund a "Manhattan Project" style alternative energy program. Unfortunately, the Congress is currently controlled by Nancy Pelosi and the dems, so this bill will go nowhere.

This must be the "American way of life is non-negotiable, Let's burn up the entire world to keep things as they are" thread. There is only one word in this post that is germane. That is the word "could."

[Plantagenet]

Let's burn up the entire world to keep things as they are" thread.

Your fantasy about burning up the entire world is silly. The goal of alternative energy research is not to keep "things as they are" but to find alternatives to oil that are ecologically friendly.

[pstarr]

Rep. Don Young (R- AK) and Roscoe Bartlett (R-Md) have just introduced a bill in Congress that would open ANWR and mandate that the federal government use the billions of dollars it would receive in leasing and federal tax receipts from the development of ANWR for alternative energy research. The ANWR money could fund a "Manhattan Project" style alternative energy program. Unfortunately, the Congress is currently controlled by Nancy Pelosi and the dems, so this bill will go nowhere.

This must be the "American way of life is non-negotiable, Let's burn up the entire world to keep things as they are" thread. There is only one word in this post that is germane. That is the word "could."

That seems to be PA's MO. And Young is another republican slimeball.

Young scores 0% by NARAL on pro-choice voting record.

Don Young has a dismal record of failing our nation’s troops and veterans

Rated 84% by the Christian Coalition: a pro-family voting record

Why would a smart guy like Bartlett hang around with an idiot like Don Young.

[Iaato]

All of the alternatives will require fossil fuels to maintain and run.
Are you saying we should use up all of our oil now to sustain our current wasteful way of life? Drilling Arctic Refuge would certainly benefit Fairbanks, wouldn't it.
Doesn't it make more sense to let peak oil reduce the waste of energy and help us adapt to a lower energy life, and save our oil in this country for our kids and grandkids to make their way of life a little less hard-scrabble?

[Peleg]

Why do you need Anwr to do what private industry could easily do, without it. What a disingenuous piece of nonsense that is.

Private industry cannot "easily" replace oil in the US economy, as you claim. What a disingenuous piece of nonsense that is.
The US needs lots of money to fund an intensive "Manhattan project" to develop viable alternative fuels to replace oil, and the US needs to fund new infrastructure to supplement and replace infrastructure across the US built on the incorrect premise of continuiing cheap gas. This plan provides it.

This is Roscoe selling us all down the river. That's fine, Hirsch and Simmons still have their integrity.
As if there is any guarantee either that the money will actually go where they say it will, or that a few billion dollars will solve the technical problems. When the Manhattan Project started they knew the nergy was there they just needed to build the mechanism for releasing it.
I am deeply disappointed in Roscoe for even proposing this. It's complete nonsense. Many will fall and many will rise, peak oil cannot be avoided. The United States will fall within two decades never to rise again as it is currently known.

[Plantagenet]

Are you saying we should use up all of our oil now to sustain our current wasteful way of life?

Of course not.
I'm supportive of Roscoe Bartlett's plan to drill ANWR and use the proceeds to develop alternative energy to replace oil.
Do you really think all the oil in the US is in ANWR? If so, you are wrong.
I doubt that even you actually believe your own inaccurate rhetoric (i.e. "use up all our oil now"... "burn up the whole earth").

[cube]

Why do you need Anwr to do what private industry could easily do, without it. What a disingenuous piece of nonsense that is.

It depends what you mean by "could easily do".
If you mean a drop in replacement for crude oil there is absolutely NOTHING out there that even comes close to what oil can do....and there never will be. The closest thing out there would be nuclear power + lead acid EV cars. People are just going to have to accept the fact that it's downhill from here on out.

[cube]

All of the alternatives will require fossil fuels to maintain and run.

If it requires oil then it's not really an "alternative" is it?

[Plantagenet]

peak oil cannot be avoided. The United States will fall within two decades never to rise again as it is currently known.

Roscoe Bartlett has for years been the only member of Congress smart enough to recognize the danger of peak oil. Now he is proposing a program to fight and work to overcome that serious problem.
Peak oil is a very serious problem, but there are lots of people who aren't ready to give up just yet. The sooner we get started on alternative energy and economic restructuring in the US the better.

[Iaato]

I'm supportive of Roscoe Bartlett's plan to drill ANWR and use the proceeds to develop alternative energy to replace oil.

Is it better to use the Arctic Refuge oil to fuel our current way of life, or is it better to use the energy that we would gain from reducing waste to develop alternatives.
Simple question, PA, answer it.
PStarr, intelligence is not necessarily correlated with ethics. Bartlett has just revealed himself as another politician focused on the short term and "getting mine."

[pstarr]

something I've learned about country pinhead republicans in my time out here in timber country. They certainly don't let their envy of city folks dilute their greed, stupidity, avarice, and propensity for violence toward the defenseless.

[Plantagenet]

I'm supportive of Roscoe Bartlett's plan to drill ANWR and use the proceeds to develop alternative energy to replace oil.

Is it better to use the Arctic Refuge oil to fuel our current way of life, or is it better to use the energy that we would gain from reducing waste to develop alternatives. Simple question, PA, answer it.

Your question is nonsensical.
Is this what you are trying to ask?
Roscoe Bartlett proposes to use the money from ANWR to develop energy alternatives.
You are proposing to use "energy" (I assume you mean money) gained (I assume you mean saved) from reducing waste to develop alternatives.

But any savings from reducing waste is distributed across the economy and is not available for alternative energy research, unless new taxes are imposed on middle class folks.
Obviously, ANWR is much better way to fund alternative energy research. It will provide much more money for alternative energy by leasing fees and taxes on Big Oil, and will do so without raising taxes on the middle class. In addition, it would stimulate the economy and create high paying technical and construction jobs.
Roscoe Bartlett is a very smart guy. His new proposal shows it again.

[Iaato]

PA, if you look at human nature and the history of US politics closely, you realize that both options we describe would be used wastefully to maintain and grow the current way of life, no matter what the original premise for the law was. A populace desperate for gasoline will not allow that Arctic oil to be funneled into research.

Using the energy from reducing waste to adapt our way of life will come naturally; people who can't drive anymore will bike or use mass transit, and so on. Adding fuel to the fire now by drilling arctic inhibits that adaptation.

[Plantagenet]

A populace desperate for gasoline will not allow that Arctic oil to be funneled into research.

You don't get it. The oil doesn't go to research. The MONEY goes to research.
Bartlett's bill would direct and dedicate the tens of billions of dollars in new, additional federal tax MONEY obtained from leasing and taxing ANWR to research on alternative energy.

[pstarr]

You have been here long enough PA to understand what is going on here. I am surprised you have learned so little.
We do not need research on wind and solar. We know they work. We need to subsidize their installation with tax and government programs. We need to create an electric infrastructure including long-haul freight train lines, intercity passager systems, and local public transport. This works

We do not need research on biofuel gimmicks. They have already failed. We do not need research on CTL, tar sands, shale, THAI, SAGH, or super deep water. They barely work and are a waste of money and time.
We need to powerdown now and stop feeding the consumer frenzy. now. We certainly do not need to tie research into a boondoggles.
The 10 billion possible barrels in ANWAR are good for a few years. THEN WHAT? Do it now or STFU. And stop handing out public money and lands to oil companies.

[cube]

...We do not need research on wind and solar. We know they work. We need to subsidize their installation with tax and government programs. ...

and these subsidies will be paid for by an economy that was made possible by oil.
This is why I always laugh at all the "enlightened" liberals who think that taxing gasoline to pay for electric trains is smart. ANYTHING (even if it doesn't run on oil) that became financially possible only because of oil will collapse once the oil money dries up. NO amount of solar, wind, public transit can save us. That's why they call it die-off.

[sicophiliac]

You have been here long enough PA to understand what is going on here. I am surprised you have leaned so little. We do not need research on wind and solar. We know they work. We need to subsidize their installation with tax and government programs. We need to create an electric infrastructure including long-haul freight train lines, intercity passager systems, and local public transport. This works. We do not need research on biofuel gimmicks. They have already failed. We do not need research on CTL, tar sands, shale, THAI, SAGH, or super deep water. They barely work and are a waste of money and time. We need to powerdown now and stop feeding the consumer frenzy. now. We certainly do not need to tie research into a boondoggles. The 10 billion possible barrels in ANWAR are good for a few years. THEN WHAT? Do it now or STFU. And stop handing out public money and lands to oil companies.

The powerdown will happen regardless of ANWR, the oil will come online strong when we are well past global peak( around 2020) so I see this as a way to soften the landing so to speak. It wont be for people to go buy more hummers and go on road trips, that extra oil will have to be used for vital services, shipping food, medicine other basic necessities etc... Can you really honestly say that investing in R&D in alternative energy would be a total waste of money? No more advancements to be had?

[pstarr]

...We do not need research on wind and solar. We know they work. We need to subsidize their installation with tax and government programs. ...

and these subsidies will be paid for by an economy that was made possible by oil. This is why I always laugh at all the "enlightened" liberals who think that taxing gasoline to pay for electric trains is smart. ANYTHING (even if it doesn't run on oil) that became financially possible only because of oil will collapse once the oil money dries up. NO amount of solar, wind, public transit can save us. That's why they call it die-off.

It's not that I disagree, but exactly what I said makes more sense than the garbage that PA spewed

[pstarr]

We need to powerdown now and stop feeding the consumer frenzy. now. We certainly do not need to tie research into a boondoggles.The 10 billion possible barrels in ANWAR are good for a few years. THEN WHAT? Do it now or STFU. And stop handing out public money and lands to oil companies.

The powerdown will happen regardless of ANWR, the oil will come online strong when we are well past global peak( around 2020) so Can you really honestly say that investing in R&D in alternative energy would be a total waste of money? No more advancements to be had?

Do you know how much money and time it would cost to develop an entirely new oil field in a remote frozen arctic wilderness? The North Slope pipeline is 35 years old, is eroding, and the rest of the equipment is deteriorating. 10 billion barrels for 1/2 year US consumption
And NO, the time for research is way way way past. It is time to act NOW.

[Peleg]

peak oil cannot be avoided. The United States will fall within two decades never to rise again as it is currently known.

Roscoe Bartlett has for years been the only member of Congress smart enough to recognize the danger of peak oil. Now he is proposing a program to fight and work to overcome that serious problem. Peak oil is a very serious problem, but there are lots of people who aren't ready to give up just yet. The sooner we get started on alternative energy and economic restructuring in the US the better.

Absolutely. Opening ANWR is nothing but a profit sharing plan for a few oil execs and some legislators. It would not generate enough fees to make a difference, most of the profits would go right into the pockets of those who have bilked the people for years and it would'nt come on line for years.

Not to mention the fact that alternatives will never replace the scale and EROEI of light sweet crude. It's that simple. So playing this game and saying that well we need ANWR to help fund alternatives is just another oil grab. The fact that Roscoe would involve himself is the shicking part, the idea is just as stupid no matter who puts it forth.

These people play on the fact that the average person will never be able to simultaneously capture scale, time rate of change, relative scale and supply and demand at the same moment. When they add to this the funky numbers they all start tossing out when they see what they want. People don't know what to think. Flip a coin.
I think more highly of Roscoe then to call him greedy, but certainly most people who want ANWR are motivated by avarice, plain and simple.