hotsacks wrote:We heard the same pooh-poohing in the 70s about LNG and propane tanks in vehicles and yet miilions were fitted with no cataclymic results.
hotsacks wrote:ES
Good to see your phosphors again.
Assuming you mean the onboard tank to filling pump connect,would it be any different than a propane filling station set up,screw connections etc.?
Of course,the ammonia economy would mean the end of self serve fuel.You'd have to have state licensed and 5 minute trained techs to fill the tank.
Hey maybe I am not as out of the zone as I thought, glad I could spark a new idea. Any guess as to how soon we will know if it is a valid idea and if so at what ratio's?
Bad idea ... ethanol from corn has an EROEI of 1.2-1.34 documented by multiple studies in the US and an EROEI of 4 in a European study (likely reflecting agricultural practises in the US and even the difference in distances from farm to industrial plant). I hope that perennial plants that can also double as carbon sequestration/soil remediation measures as discussed here . Ethanol derived from switchgrass (aka "solar panel of the prairies") has a much higher holistic EROEI (4.4) compared to corn ethanol and room for improvement of this number. Corn ethanol seems to be a dead end: we can only optimize industrial agriculture practises but extracting the ETOH is a well known (and optimized) process.
Onboard ammonia storage should not be a huge engineering/safety issue.We heard the same pooh-poohing in the 70s about LNG and propane tanks in vehicles and yet miilions were fitted with no cataclymic results.
We use commercial ammonia cleaners for things like greasy machinery and paint removal.I'm wondering about ammonia stripping oil from cylinder walls. Has Hollinger done any wear tests on his motors?
Gasous injection and high compression ratios increase combustion efficiency.I can see,with turbocharging or air ramming ICEs to maximise oxygen to fuel ratios,ammonia making good mileage/lb.
Can you talk at all about your urea processor? Does it resemble a methane digestor?
Hey maybe I am not as out of the zone as I thought, glad I could spark a new idea. Any guess as to how soon we will know if it is a valid idea and if so at what ratio's?
Bad idea ... ethanol from corn has an EROEI of 1.2-1.34 documented by multiple studies in the US and an EROEI of 4 in a European study (likely reflecting agricultural practises in the US and even the difference in distances from farm to industrial plant). I hope that perennial plants that can also double as carbon sequestration/soil remediation measures as discussed here . Ethanol derived from switchgrass (aka "solar panel of the prairies") has a much higher holistic EROEI (4.4) compared to corn ethanol and room for improvement of this number. Corn ethanol seems to be a dead end: we can only optimize industrial agriculture practises but extracting the ETOH is a well known (and optimized) process.
Onboard ammonia storage should not be a huge engineering/safety issue.We heard the same pooh-poohing in the 70s about LNG and propane tanks in vehicles and yet miilions were fitted with no cataclymic results.
We use commercial ammonia cleaners for things like greasy machinery and paint removal.I'm wondering about ammonia stripping oil from cylinder walls. Has Hollinger done any wear tests on his motors?
Gasous injection and high compression ratios increase combustion efficiency.I can see,with turbocharging or air ramming ICEs to maximise oxygen to fuel ratios,ammonia making good mileage/lb.
Can you talk at all about your urea processor? Does it resemble a methane digestor?
ammonia-guy wrote:Hey maybe I am not as out of the zone as I thought, glad I could spark a new idea. Any guess as to how soon we will know if it is a valid idea and if so at what ratio's?
Yes, some colleagues and I had some good email traffic on this yesterday.
Bottom line, ammonia and gasoline not miscible. But, ammonia and ethanol or methanol ought to be very miscible. Don't know the limits yet, but it looks good. What we thought was as potentially valuable was the ability to "spike" liquid ammonia with 5-10 percent ethanol (in the midwest and south) or methanol (the rest of the country) [this is sort of an inside joke because a number of people in the ammonia network live in states where they favor gasahol--don't wince ES]. At any rate, ammonia plus 10 percent (m)ethanol would have improved combustion characteristics in an ICE. We've gotten Ted Hollinger to think about burning this blend in his ammonia ICE. Thanks for the good idea Tanada.Bad idea ... ethanol from corn has an EROEI of 1.2-1.34 documented by multiple studies in the US and an EROEI of 4 in a European study (likely reflecting agricultural practises in the US and even the difference in distances from farm to industrial plant). I hope that perennial plants that can also double as carbon sequestration/soil remediation measures as discussed here . Ethanol derived from switchgrass (aka "solar panel of the prairies") has a much higher holistic EROEI (4.4) compared to corn ethanol and room for improvement of this number. Corn ethanol seems to be a dead end: we can only optimize industrial agriculture practises but extracting the ETOH is a well known (and optimized) process.
ES--I know, but corn ethanol means job in Iowa.Onboard ammonia storage should not be a huge engineering/safety issue.We heard the same pooh-poohing in the 70s about LNG and propane tanks in vehicles and yet miilions were fitted with no cataclymic results.
We use commercial ammonia cleaners for things like greasy machinery and paint removal.I'm wondering about ammonia stripping oil from cylinder walls. Has Hollinger done any wear tests on his motors?
Gasous injection and high compression ratios increase combustion efficiency.I can see,with turbocharging or air ramming ICEs to maximise oxygen to fuel ratios,ammonia making good mileage/lb.
Can you talk at all about your urea processor? Does it resemble a methane digestor?
On board storage of ammonia (or hydrogen by ammonia) is quite feasible. The tank would have to be rated for about 250 psi, but compare that to a 10,000 psi H2 tank. Liquid ammonia is commonly stored in plain carbon steel "propane" tanks. I believe ammonia tanks could also be made of aluminum alloys (manufacturers in Ohio already make aluminum propane tanks. Of course, storage tanks and auto designs would have to have good crash resistance. But, so do gasoline auto designs.
Ted has done wear tests on his 6 cyl hydrogen engine and found no deterioration of the cylinder walls, rings, or piston. He hasn't run the ammonia engine yet, but we all anticipate good compatibility of the engine with ammonia. He'll have to avoid copper and brass parts, obviously.
Gotta run, but I'll outline the urea to ammonia process later.
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
ammonia-guy wrote:I believe ammonia tanks could also be made of aluminum alloys (manufacturers in Ohio already make aluminum propane tanks.
Antimatter wrote:Anhydrous NH3 might be ok, its the basicity that attacks aluminium. Ammonium hydroxide is definatly a no-no.
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
Tanada wrote:Antimatter wrote:Anhydrous NH3 might be ok, its the basicity that attacks aluminium. Ammonium hydroxide is definatly a no-no.
Would there be some technical problem with coating the inner tank wall with a non ammonia reactive layer and using aluminum for the main preassure support?
Liquid ammonia is used extensively as a nonaqueous solvent. The alkali metals as well as the heavier alkaline earth metals and even some inner transition metals dissolve in liquid ammonia, producing blue solutions. Physical measurements, including electrical conductivity studies, provide evidence that this blue colour and electrical current are due to the solvated electron.
metal (dispersed) ⇌ metal(NH3)x ⇌ M+(NH3)x + e −(NH3)y
Antimatter wrote:Tanada wrote:Antimatter wrote:Anhydrous NH3 might be ok, its the basicity that attacks aluminium. Ammonium hydroxide is definatly a no-no.
Would there be some technical problem with coating the inner tank wall with a non ammonia reactive layer and using aluminum for the main preassure support?
I would imagine that would be difficult and not worth the extra bother over using steel. In any case, I can't help thinking electricity -> hydrogen -> NH3 -> combustion engine is much less efficient than electricity -> grid -> plug in hybrid. Could be usefull in the longer run though for liquid fuels.
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
I don't know how this could be true. I've been involved with building housing for commercial refrigeration plants and a good deal of the piping has been in aluminum. These were large ammonia compressors. There are so many different grades of aluminum,it might be some are ammonia compatible.
Anhydrous NH3 might be ok, its the basicity that attacks aluminium. Ammonium hydroxide is definatly a no-no.
ammonia-guy wrote:You can see I'm still new at this. Here's the link...
http://www.colmaccoil.com/pdf/AluminumAdTP.pdf
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
ammonia-guy wrote:Hey maybe I am not as out of the zone as I thought, glad I could spark a new idea. Any guess as to how soon we will know if it is a valid idea and if so at what ratio's?
Yes, some colleagues and I had some good email traffic on this yesterday.
Bottom line, ammonia and gasoline not miscible. But, ammonia and ethanol or methanol ought to be very miscible. Don't know the limits yet, but it looks good. What we thought was as potentially valuable was the ability to "spike" liquid ammonia with 5-10 percent ethanol (in the midwest and south) or methanol (the rest of the country) [this is sort of an inside joke because a number of people in the ammonia network live in states where they favor gasahol--don't wince ES]. At any rate, ammonia plus 10 percent (m)ethanol would have improved combustion characteristics in an ICE. We've gotten Ted Hollinger to think about burning this blend in his ammonia ICE. Thanks for the good idea Tanada.
On board storage of ammonia (or hydrogen by ammonia) is quite feasible. The tank would have to be rated for about 250 psi, but compare that to a 10,000 psi H2 tank. Liquid ammonia is commonly stored in plain carbon steel "propane" tanks. I believe ammonia tanks could also be made of aluminum alloys (manufacturers in Ohio already make aluminum propane tanks. Of course, storage tanks and auto designs would have to have good crash resistance. But, so do gasoline auto designs.
Ted has done wear tests on his 6 cyl hydrogen engine and found no deterioration of the cylinder walls, rings, or piston. He hasn't run the ammonia engine yet, but we all anticipate good compatibility of the engine with ammonia. He'll have to avoid copper and brass parts, obviously.
Gotta run, but I'll outline the urea to ammonia process later.
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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