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Social conservatives and their Islamic ally

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Social conservatives and their Islamic ally

Unread postby americandream » Thu 31 Mar 2016, 16:41:44

In this thread I will post the clear ties that exist between both sets of feudalists as they seek to reform capitalism in their own image, with destructive results across the scope of life on this planet, obstructing the flow of history with dire consequences for all of us. I intend to make this the subject of a book so this thread is useful to help me form my thoughts as it ties it in with an understanding of history (discussed in another thread) and will thus be favourited. It will hopefully help us understand the odd behaviour of establishment conservative parties, their historic ties with Islam and of course, their tendency to blame liberals, many of whom are well intended in their humanism, their lack of understanding of material dialecticism notwithstanding. It will put the behaviours of some on here in context hopefully and help us to understand why this foolhardy mix of capitalism and neo-feudal forces spells serious problems for us in areas such as the climate, with the passage of each year.
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Re: Social conservatives and their Islamic ally

Unread postby Sixstrings » Thu 31 Mar 2016, 17:05:35

americandream wrote:It will hopefully help us understand the odd behaviour of establishment conservative parties, their historic ties with Islam


How is it that you think Christian social conservatives are "allied with islam?" And have "historic ties?"

All due respect, that doesn't make much sense.
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Re: Social conservatives and their Islamic ally

Unread postby americandream » Thu 31 Mar 2016, 17:24:39

Sixstrings wrote:
americandream wrote:It will hopefully help us understand the odd behaviour of establishment conservative parties, their historic ties with Islam


How is it that you think Christian social conservatives are "allied with islam?" And have "historic ties?"

All due respect, that doesn't make much sense.


Patience my friend. All in good time. My threads are WIP's to much more complex issues and a much bigger project of mine. That said, a brief response that should help us better read what follows in this thread:

Social relations are fundamentally of specific forms and objectives, invariably to advance the cause of specific historic classes with defined mechanisms to achieve these outcomes. Feudal systems are marked by the presence of landed elites, systems where value is in fixed form derived by conquest and thus requiring the exclusion of vast segments of the populace, women for example, serfs in former times, and of course, the never ending conflict of the races, from participation, upon the pain of death or some other prescription, always contained in religious documents accompanying said systems.

These forces do not act in conspiratiorial manner. So its not as if the elites all sit around a table scheming. But the nature of feudal social relations being what they are, we tend to cleave to those with whom we share a commonality. Within a particular system, it will of course be gender and tribe (race) centric...a sort of internal policing by the particular elite. Across the world, the bonds will naturally lie between the elites as they seek to carve up mutually governable territory (the Aryan Nazis and the very unAryan Japenese is another good example). Where agreement cannot be reached, war prevails as does conquest and sometime, genocide.

For a conservative though, it is as natural for him to defend the fellow feudalist over there and to persecute him in here.
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Re: Social conservatives and their Islamic ally

Unread postby Sixstrings » Thu 31 Mar 2016, 18:10:47

Ok, I read all that.

So in short, you're saying that the rich keep getting richer and the poor are poor and the rich like to keep the poor fighting each other.

And, I suppose you're saying that historically, the Church helps the elite (the Crown and nobility, in feudal times) keep their position.. and in return, the Crown helps the church keep THEIR position.

Is that a fair summation / interpretation of what you just said?

This is a very old dynamic, the relationship between the two major power structures in society. Government, and religion. The tribe's chief, and the shaman. Etc., etc.

And of course in modern times too, government and church may work together or one using the other, just as they always have.

But how do you then suggest that Christians are "allied to islam?" They're both religions, they both have dynamics between government and religion, but it doesn't mean the two religious power structures like each other. Rather, they're in competition with each other.

I really don't know what you're trying to say AD. :lol:
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Re: Social conservatives and their Islamic ally

Unread postby americandream » Thu 31 Mar 2016, 18:32:04

Sixstrings wrote:Ok, I read all that.

So in short, you're saying that the rich keep getting richer and the poor are poor and the rich like to keep the poor fighting each other.

And, I suppose you're saying that historically, the Church helps the elite (the Crown and nobility, in feudal times) keep their position.. and in return, the Crown helps the church keep THEIR position.

Is that a fair summation / interpretation of what you just said?

This is a very old dynamic, the relationship between the two major power structures in society. Government, and religion. The tribe's chief, and the shaman. Etc., etc.

And of course in modern times too, government and church may work together or one using the other, just as they always have.

But how do you then suggest that Christians are "allied to islam?" They're both religions, they both have dynamics between government and religion, but it doesn't mean the two religious power structures like each other. Rather, they're in competition with each other.

I really don't know what you're trying to say AD. :lol:


Yes, but only to the extent that one recognises that these are effects and not the causes. The cause/s is always history. The effects may seek to interpret history (or fail to adapt under the dictates of history) and affect it accordingly, but history simply marches over them, removing them in the process.
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Re: Social conservatives and their Islamic ally

Unread postby Fishman » Thu 31 Mar 2016, 19:44:31

Wow that is a stretch, like fixed delusional stretch.
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Re: Social conservatives and their Islamic ally

Unread postby americandream » Thu 31 Mar 2016, 19:51:28

Fishman wrote:Wow that is a stretch, like fixed delusional stretch.


Only delusional to the extent that you fear looking at yourself and what might be reflected back.
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Re: Social conservatives and their Islamic ally

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 31 Mar 2016, 20:01:26

You've gone off the beam again, AD.

Islamic communities in the US and the EU vote center-left to left. In return, Ds in the US and left-leaning politicians in the EU support more Muslim immigration and pretty much leave Muslim communities in places like Brussels alone.

Take the USA---who are the biggest proponents of Muslim immigration into the USA? Why the Ds, of course.

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Re: Social conservatives and their Islamic ally

Unread postby americandream » Thu 31 Mar 2016, 20:20:05

Plant. Follow this thread and I will strip you of your illusions, not only detailing the links between neo-feudalists such as the GOP and Islam as well as explaining the nature of liberalism such as Obamas> Efficient in managing capitalism but of course, complicit in maintaining the status quo established by you fellows, often out of deference to the bullying tactics of neo-feudals, sometimes corrupted as is the case with a certain foundation, often due to a lack of understanding as far as history goes, and as I stated elsewhere very often flowing from this curious state they find themselves, at once humane and elitist.

Capitalism has given us access to vast fortunes. Some neo-feudals will seek to treat those fortunes as the profits of conquest, others as a means to more accumulation by way of risk, whilst others yet, will see themselves as a new class of mandarin overlords, albeit more humane. The riskiest in that mix are the neo-feudals who presume to think that capitalism can be run like a slave plantation from the days of the landed gentry.
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Re: Social conservatives and their Islamic ally

Unread postby americandream » Fri 01 Apr 2016, 01:49:36

The Saudi lobbying presence manifests itself in a variety of ways.

Disclosures show that the latest addition to the Saudi government payroll includes former US Senator Norm Coleman, a Republican from Minnesota who leads one of the largest Super PACs in the country.

http://www.thenation.com/article/saudi- ... m-coleman/
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Re: Social conservatives and their Islamic ally

Unread postby americandream » Fri 01 Apr 2016, 02:34:42

From the above article:

"As the Obama administration has opened nuclear negotiations with Iran and refused to bomb Assad last year"
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Re: Social conservatives and their Islamic ally

Unread postby americandream » Fri 01 Apr 2016, 03:23:59

The British imperial connection in the sewer of Arab feudal rivalry:

In December, the British government (started early 1915) attempted to cultivate favor with Ibn Saud via its secret agent, Captain William Shakespear, and this resulted in the Treaty of Darin. After Shakespear's death at the Battle of Jarrab, the British began supporting Ibn Saud's rival Sharif Hussein bin Ali, leader of the Hejaz. Lord Kitchener also appealed to Hussein bin Ali, Sharif of Mecca for assistance in the conflict and Hussein wanted political recognition in return. An exchange of letters with Henry McMahon assured him that his assistance would be rewarded between Egypt and Persia, with the exception of imperial possessions and interests in Kuwait, Aden, and the Syrian coast. Contrary to its negotiations with Ali, the British entered into the Treaty of Darin, which made the lands of the House of Saud a British protectorate. Ibn Saud pledged to again make war against Ibn Rashid, who was an ally of the Ottomans. Ibn Saud was also given a monthly stipend in exchange for waging war against Ibn Rashid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unificati ... udi_Arabia
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Re: Social conservatives and their Islamic ally

Unread postby GASMON » Fri 01 Apr 2016, 03:35:54

OK, it's the Daily Mail, but this article has some interesting points.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/artic ... EJOHN.html

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Re: Social conservatives and their Islamic ally

Unread postby americandream » Fri 01 Apr 2016, 03:55:59

GASMON wrote:OK, it's the Daily Mail, but this article has some interesting points.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/artic ... EJOHN.html

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England drives the capital machine globally with exporters ranged around the heart of this global machine and the US as partner in the flow of liquidity worldwide. She has brought an immense powerhouse of global culture into being, is the basis around which legal process in capitalism revolves, has being the engine through which history has emerged in Englightened form and of course, in a curious and perplexing way, her imperial mechanism was the driver for globalisation. So it should come as no surprise that London is today to capitalism, what Rome was to its imperial order. London is the heart to the new global order, the centre of the new global culture.

The only blot in all of this is the continuing ties that certain corrupt members of Englands capitalist establishment have with the Islamic empire and that is the boil that needs lancing
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Re: Social conservatives and their Islamic ally

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 01 Apr 2016, 05:31:38

The House of Saud is the biggest batch of feudalists that exist upon this planet. They do not have any ongoing relationship with either major US political party. Instead they maintain a customer/supplier relationship with their largest customer, a contemptuous one that also sees them funding fundamentalist Islam on multiple fronts. They do not care at all which US party is in the White House, their basic desire is to destroy the Great Satan, along with those of all secular so-called "Democracies" around the globe, in the process replacing our political system - and that of every Judeo-Christian nation - with a Caliphate.

The second largest group of feudalists I know of is the American Democratic Party, the British Labour Party, etc. As I have pointed out many times in these pages, the Democrats run an inclusion scam while actually being severely Racist. This situation has existed for almost a century and a half, after the founding of the GOP by Lincoln. The political pendulum swings right/left in a fairly regular rhythm, the present leftward swing began with the "Camelot" series of reforms begun by the imperial Kennedy/Shriver family, replacing the ultra right wing Dixiecrats with nominal social liberals. The second largest "Imperial Presidency" was that of William J. Clinton, the greatest one in the history of this nation is that of Barack Obama. (Third I would place FDR, and it isn't until 4th that you will find a GOP Imperialist member - Teddy Roosevelt.)

Although you have an admirable vocabulary, your political viewpoints are mired in a simplistic Liberal/Good vs. Conservative/Bad set of delusions - both major American political parties have a complex set of memberships spanning the ideological spectrum from left to right, and approximately 45% of the American electorate. Such delusions typically arise in people who were excessively exposed to that most dysfunctional yet oddly ignorant of American ideological groups - the Liberal Academics. That group is a persistent international one and has included a couple of entirely delusional members named Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, who published the most ignorant of manifestos.

The 10% of non-ideological voters decide every election in the USA, the only more numerous group in the country is that of the infamous "silent majority" - that class of people that have never voted, and would not be doing so now had their severely curtailed Middle Class incomes not overcome both their desires never to serve on a jury and never to be registered for a system of military conscription we actually abandoned decades ago. (Their attitudes persist in the face of reason - and are exacerbated in our cybernetic society.)

That's the other thing you personally do not understand - that mobile electronic devices and a worldwide information network are now replacing all our other societal paradigms - and that the fantasies of Marx and Engels, which were never actually realized or proven in whole or in part - have already been replaced by an entirely new set spawned by Gates/Jobs/Zuckerberg. Humans are less than one generation away from becoming cybernetic organisms, with direct access to to the WWW and a hive mind enabled by WiFi interconnects. The ultimate class struggle is not Liberal/Conservative, Rich/Poor, Republican/Democrat, or any other divide you have ever contemplated, it will simply arise in a single unanticipated day, when those with direct mind/machine interfaces realize that they are the dominant species on Earth, and exterminate the others - those without cybernetic brain implants, the new Neanderthals. SkyNet will be born in a single day, and the world will be bathed in nuclear fire, and the new species of cyborgs will exterminate all the traditional, non-networked humans.

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Re: Social conservatives and their Islamic ally

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Fri 01 Apr 2016, 08:57:04

There is no machine more efficient than a self disciplined human being at gathering it's own needs for strutting scampering & mating- we are the bionic superspecies, now. The machines depend on energy, so much about power the words are interchangeable. There are still vast areas where excess energy to run machines is absurdly scarce. When JIT goes, that's it for civilization, always a limited experiment.
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Re: Social conservatives and their Islamic ally

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 01 Apr 2016, 14:03:05

KaiserJeep wrote:mobile electronic devices and a worldwide information network are now replacing all our other societal paradigms - and that the fantasies of Marx and Engels, which were never actually realized or proven in whole or in part - have already been replaced by an entirely new set spawned by Gates/Jobs/Zuckerberg. Humans are less than one generation away from becoming cybernetic organisms, with direct access to to the WWW and a hive mind enabled by WiFi interconnects. The ultimate class struggle is not Liberal/Conservative, Rich/Poor, Republican/Democrat, or any other divide you have ever contemplated, it will simply arise in a single unanticipated day, when those with direct mind/machine interfaces realize that they are the dominant species on Earth, and exterminate the others - those without cybernetic brain implants, the new Neanderthals. SkyNet will be born in a single day, and the world will be bathed in nuclear fire, and the new species of cyborgs will exterminate all the traditional, non-networked humans.

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Good god KJ---- that is about the most dystopian vision of the future I've ever read.

By comparison to your idea of robot/cyborg genocide of humans, even poverty under a communist world state or a global Islamic Caliphate taking the world back to the 7th century sound good. 8O

Cheers!
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Re: Social conservatives and their Islamic ally

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 01 Apr 2016, 15:18:21

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Re: Social conservatives and their Islamic ally

Unread postby americandream » Fri 01 Apr 2016, 15:19:49

In moving this thread along, I will use succinct historic analysis rather the spray gun approach of he said this, she said that. Few strange quirks in the ME swamp stand out for me and cause me to pause, speaking as they do of stranger happenings in the background. The hesitation Obama has taken as regards the Assad matter stands out, Iran is the other one (I could discuss Cuba but that adds nothing to this thread which is intended to try and understand this very strange relationship with the ME where for example, Iran with its very evident reformist tendencies is seen as a greater existential threat than Saudi Arabia with its clear and obvious links to anti-systemic tendencies. (I deliberately resist characterising the Saudis as anti-capitalist as I have no idea as to how resistant they are to adaptation when APPROPRIATE. The reins of global capitalism are compelling I would imagine, even to the apparently entrenched...only time will tell))

Thus, when I occasionally when I use news sources (this thread I reiterate, will revolve around historical analyses rather than he said, she said) it will be to dig out any hidden nuggets that lie embedded deep in a very public item which has not since been retracted under an umbrella of recriminations and obsequious corrections. Thus, the item on a very large conservative US PAC associate being an employee of the Saudis EVEN as Obama refuses to bomb Assad and further isolate Iran as is vigorously and loudly demanded by AIPAC/Israel and the Right in the US tells me something about the very odd relationships that form right wing opinion in the US (and all across the world) and the widely known alliance that even the Israelis have finally had to forge ties with to survive in the twilight world of the quietly rising House of Saud and its subtle diplomacy (speak of synchronicity. Even as I was writing out this post, I received a rather timely reminder of this diplomacy at work and unfolding in the way of a news story. The link is below along with my reply to my associate beneath it).

So when we hear conservatives point the finger at the naturally liberal bourgeoise capitalists in social democratic parties across the world (as this is not just an American issue, all of the world faces the consequences of this quietly brewing challenge to history) over their tendencies towards Muslims in our midst (which to some extent is necessary to prevent the rest of us from descending into dribbling barbarians...we need diplomatic initiatives, not spontaneous combustion), what remains ever puzzling in the midst of this recrimination is the shared goals the Republicans share with the House of Saud with the removal of Assad. This goes back to Saddam, (granted the Democrats co-opted in Ghadaffis case (as was so loudly trumpeted by Clinton (of a certain Foundation)). But Assad stands out in all of this being a departure from said co-option and of course, one wonders just how engaged the Democrats are with Saudi objectives. It is a very messy picture but the one constant is the Democrat ambivalence versus Republican certitude....all the while not forgetting the Saudi connection and Israels acquiescence in this very murky swamp. The rest is all pretty much conjecture. But the facts paint a strange picture of corruption and disalignment in US politics.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... its-rivals

Hi..............Now as regards the item...all I can say is WOW!! Ok, that aside, clearly the Saudis are intent on the Arab elite assuming the reins of capitalism. This is basically an attempt by an elite with an imperial character seeking to become the sole elite in secular capitalism. That we term consolidation and is possible provided Islam is reformed. Only then will what follows continue as capitalism. If no reformation occurs, history will destroy this mutant entity and the entire species.
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Re: Social conservatives and their Islamic ally

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 01 Apr 2016, 16:31:34

SeaGypsy wrote:There is no machine more efficient than a self disciplined human being at gathering it's own needs for strutting scampering & mating- we are the bionic superspecies, now. The machines depend on energy, so much about power the words are interchangeable. There are still vast areas where excess energy to run machines is absurdly scarce. When JIT goes, that's it for civilization, always a limited experiment.


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