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Scientists scramble to safeguard data ahead of 'scrubbers'

Re: Scientists scramble to safeguard data ahead of 'scrubber

Unread postby Subjectivist » Sat 17 Dec 2016, 10:05:55

Cid_Yama wrote:If I thought Reagan was a Nazi, I would not have worked for his Administration. Reagan would be on my side.
He lived through WWII.

No, the new generation are Nazis, and cannot claim Reagan.

You are an idiot, the time is now. Choose.


You are an idiot. What a pithy response worthy of a five year old losing an argument.
II Chronicles 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
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Re: Scientists scramble to safeguard data ahead of 'scrubber

Unread postby Cog » Sat 17 Dec 2016, 10:10:56

I'm pretty sure Reagan got the short end of the stick if he hired Cid to work for him.
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Re: Scientists scramble to safeguard data ahead of 'scrubber

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Sat 17 Dec 2016, 10:31:10

I was an Eisenhower Republican. I worked for the State Department all my life. I negotiated the CFE treaty. I knew Reagan personally.

Fucking worm.

You Nazis have no claim to previous Republican Administrations. You may have usurped the name of the party, undermined us politically. But I'm here to serve notice. We still exist. And we still hate Nazis.
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Re: Scientists scramble to safeguard data ahead of 'scrubber

Unread postby Cog » Sat 17 Dec 2016, 10:36:10

Too bad McCarthy's investigation into communists in the State Department died out before it got to you.
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Re: Scientists scramble to safeguard data ahead of 'scrubber

Unread postby sjn » Sat 17 Dec 2016, 10:47:16

It occurs to me there's something confusing people, namely the difference between "Cultural Liberals" and liberal ethics or philosophy. Cultural Liberals share the same or similar outlook on social norms, they may or may not be ethically liberal, that is they may have conservative ethics regarding their normalcy bias. A true social liberal is one who embraces or accepts "otherness", they are not constrained, or do not believe in constraining others in how they live their lives, or what cultural values they hold. Obama is/was definitely a "Cultural Liberal", but fairly middle of the road socially and as mentioned, authoritarian. Reagan was more socially liberal, but a "Cultural Conservative", and considerably less authoritarian.

Between Trump and Clinton, interestingly they're both fairly "Culturally Liberal", but IMHO strangely Clinton is the more socially conservative. They are both likely very authoritarian. Where they differ, and relevant to this topic, I believe, is Trump belongs to the modern (right-wing) anti-science cult, whereas Clinton is more culturally academic and "progressive".
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Re: Scientists scramble to safeguard data ahead of 'scrubber

Unread postby Cog » Sat 17 Dec 2016, 10:59:07

Progressive is another word for authoritarian.
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Re: Scientists scramble to safeguard data ahead of 'scrubber

Unread postby sjn » Sat 17 Dec 2016, 11:07:15

Cog, er no. I readily admitted that Clinton is an authoritarian. Progressives believe in "Progress". That there is a direction in human cultural, social and technological and scientific development and improvement of the Human Condition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivism

The "Good Times" are ahead, as opposed to harking back to a "Golden Age".
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Re: Scientists scramble to safeguard data ahead of 'scrubber

Unread postby Cog » Sat 17 Dec 2016, 11:11:25

sjn wrote:Cog, er no. I readily admitted that Clinton is an authoritarian. Progressives believe in "Progress". That there is a direction in human cultural, social and technological and scientific development and improvement of the Human Condition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivism


No progressives believe in collectivism which is the destruction of individual rights in favor of collective rights. Just look at the progressive view on gun rights. Progressives hate being limited by the Constitution and want to turn it into a living document that changes constantly to suit their whims. Progressives believe in economic "fairness" which is just a clever way of installing redistribution of wealth from the earners to the non-earners. I could go on forever but you get the point. Or you don't. Don't care.

Spare me from those who want to do what's best for me and leave the hell alone to figure out that on my own.
Last edited by Cog on Sat 17 Dec 2016, 11:15:00, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Scientists scramble to safeguard data ahead of 'scrubber

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 17 Dec 2016, 11:13:33

sjn wrote:Cog, er no. I readily admitted that Clinton is an authoritarian. Progressives believe in "Progress". That there is a direction in human cultural, social and technological and scientific development and improvement of the Human Condition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivism

The "Good Times" are ahead, as opposed to harking back to a "Golden Age".


The problem with Wikipedia or any current events type definition is it lacks historical context. Progress is presumed to be a 'good' no matter what when this is demonstrably false for many specific situations. Progress towards equality before the law is an excellent thing to strive for. Progress to falling over the financial cliff by creating social programs that are far too bloated to effectively accomplish much is regressive, but still called progress by the proponents of those programs.
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Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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Re: Scientists scramble to safeguard data ahead of 'scrubber

Unread postby sjn » Sat 17 Dec 2016, 11:18:36

Tanada wrote:
sjn wrote:Cog, er no. I readily admitted that Clinton is an authoritarian. Progressives believe in "Progress". That there is a direction in human cultural, social and technological and scientific development and improvement of the Human Condition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivism

The "Good Times" are ahead, as opposed to harking back to a "Golden Age".


The problem with Wikipedia or any current events type definition is it lacks historical context. Progress is presumed to be a 'good' no matter what when this is demonstrably false for many specific situations. Progress towards equality before the law is an excellent thing to strive for. Progress to falling over the financial cliff by creating social programs that are far too bloated to effectively accomplish much is regressive, but still called progress by the proponents of those programs.

Tanada, I never said it was a sound philosophy. In particular, I think we can both agree that the "progress" made on our impact on Earths ecosystems and Climate are not "good"! I only used the wikipedia link to back up what I was saying. For the record, I do not personally believe the "Good Times" are ahead! 8O
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Re: Scientists scramble to safeguard data ahead of 'scrubber

Unread postby dissident » Sat 17 Dec 2016, 11:33:22

America has become unhinged when there are serious debates about Trump's Republicans having similarities to the Nazis. People need to realize that they have been mind f*cked by the MSM and think that the lies are truth. If you want to compare something to the Nazis, then put your focus on the MSM. The mass media is always there to lubricate hate and hysteria in every war and genocide in recent history (when the MSM existed).
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Re: Scientists scramble to safeguard data ahead of 'scrubber

Unread postby sjn » Sat 17 Dec 2016, 11:40:46

dissident wrote:America has become unhinged when there are serious debates about Trump's Republicans having similarities to the Nazis. People need to realize that they have been mind f*cked by the MSM and think that the lies are truth. If you want to compare something to the Nazis, then put your focus on the MSM. The mass media is always there to lubricate hate and hysteria in every war and genocide in recent history (when the MSM existed).

You're not wrong about the MSM. However, I think you're too quickly dismissing the danger Trump's allies pose to research and researchers. By the way, I agree with your implicit assessment that Hilary was more dangerous regarding Russia, and Russian interests, and could have seen a hot war as the outcome. Thankfully, that particular risk is now reduced, but I feel you're letting that cloud your assessment on the actual risks presented by Trump, and on your opinion of Trump himself. I've not called him a Nazi, however.
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Re: Scientists scramble to safeguard data ahead of 'scrubber

Unread postby sjn » Sat 17 Dec 2016, 11:48:07

To all those calling Trump a Nazi, I think care should be taken not to label him as such. He isn't a Nazi. He, and his allies do share some rather unfortunate similarities with the Nazi's, for sure, but it just provides a strawman to those who would dismiss your criticisms and fears. It's better to be specific, and call out exactly the issues rather than be dismissed as imagining America 2016 == Germany 1930s.
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Re: Scientists scramble to safeguard data ahead of 'scrubber

Unread postby dohboi » Sat 17 Dec 2016, 12:26:54

Cog falsely claimed: "no one is getting put on a train"

Trump pointed to what he considered historical precedent to defend his singling out of the Muslim religion with his ban. He used FDR's Proclamations 2525, 2526, and 2527, which applied to Japanese, Italian, and German Americans in the aftermath of Pearl Harbor as examples. Those proclamations authorized the U.S. to "detain allegedly potentially dangerous enemy aliens" and led to the internment of many of these individuals.


http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-el ... ns-n599901


That's what Trump said. That's not spin. The fact that, like everything else, he seemed to back track from this position (for now) in later statements is not much comfort to Muslim families wondering when the 'trains' are going to pull up.

sjn, thanks for pointing out that T rump and his allies share similarities with Nazis. So what do you see as the main (non-trivial) things that distinguish them from Nazis?
Last edited by dohboi on Sat 17 Dec 2016, 12:52:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Scientists scramble to safeguard data ahead of 'scrubber

Unread postby dohboi » Sat 17 Dec 2016, 12:29:37

Further: 'Reagan would roll over in his grave' if he saw how many Republicans approved of Putin [37%]

http://www.businessinsider.com/obama-re ... in-2016-12
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Re: Scientists scramble to safeguard data ahead of 'scrubber

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 17 Dec 2016, 12:42:23

SNJ,
Excellent point.

CID,
I'm no fan of Trump, but I found no viable alternate in Clinton. It was an unfortunate forced choice to say the least.

My assessment is that Trump can't become a dictator, he's too old to start, he doesn't have the necessary loyal and embedded cadre surrounding him. Nor, I believe, is the country in the same situation as Germany was, the environment is not sufficiently fertile.

What I'd do think would fertilize the environment is anti-Truml hate talk. But especially if some folks actually tried to do something. An assaination attempt would rally folks around him. An attempted coup, or even the dissuasion of one would give him more support and excuses for abuse.

No, I think the best thing to do is to let him be himself and attack poor ideas and proposals. Something tells me there will opportunity enough.

If the Left is smart they will use this opportunity to build a strong base with some meaningful agenda that resonates with Americans. This will also require educating Americans, not just greeting them like Eyeball counts on an Internet page. We need honest discussion not Madison Ave. BS.
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Re: Scientists scramble to safeguard data ahead of 'scrubber

Unread postby sjn » Sat 17 Dec 2016, 12:53:20

dohboi wrote:Cog falsely claimed: "no one is getting put on a train"

Trump pointed to what he considered historical precedent to defend his singling out of the Muslim religion with his ban. He used FDR's Proclamations 2525, 2526, and 2527, which applied to Japanese, Italian, and German Americans in the aftermath of Pearl Harbor as examples. Those proclamations authorized the U.S. to "detain allegedly potentially dangerous enemy aliens" and led to the internment of many of these individuals.


That's what Trump said. That's not spin. The fact that, like everything else, he seemed to back track from this position (for now) in later statements is not much comfort to Muslim families wondering when the 'trains' are going to pull up.

sjn, thanks for pointing out that T rump and his allies share similarities with Nazis. So what do you see as the main (non-trivial) things that distinguish them from Nazis?

Well, for a start the Nazi's were not anti-science, although they also believed in many psudeo-scientific and meta-physical ideas for which there is a questionable basis, to say the least! They utilised science to their benefit, and supported research to that end. They were also master propagandists, a discipline which is now largely provided by the MSM (not currently, at least, pro-Trump) as dissident points out. They also used fear and intimidation to silence critics and opponents which is a common feature, but Trump is a rabble-rouser, he lacks the skill of a true propagandist.
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Re: Scientists scramble to safeguard data ahead of 'scrubber

Unread postby dohboi » Sat 17 Dec 2016, 13:01:40

" Nazi's were not anti-science, although they also believed in many psudeo-scientific and meta-physical ideas for which there is a questionable basis, to say the least! They utilised science to their benefit, and supported research to that end. They were also master propagandists, a discipline which is now largely provided by the MSM (not currently, at least, pro-Trump) as dissident points out. They also used fear and intimidation to silence critics and opponents which is a common feature, but Trump is a rabble-rouser, he lacks the skill of a true propagandist."

Soooo, not seeing a lot of difference, here.

Obviously, Rex T and his cronies 'utilizes science to their benefit, and support research to that end.'

Why you think MSM is not pro-Trump is beyond me. They played his speeches non-stop, even while almost completely blanking out Sanders. Meanwhile he has Fox and Breitbart and lots of other outlets 100% in his camp. Because he has not yet totally squashed all other voices is hardly comforting.

"They also used fear and intimidation to silence critics"

And what do you call what Trump and his minions do to all his critics?

Most recently: "Trump’s Campaign Threatening Electoral College Members According To Elector"
http://samuel-warde.com/2016/12/breakin ... g-elector/

Really, you are very eloquently making the very case you pretend to be opposing. Thanks for that. But I was hoping that you would be able to come up with some more comforting revelations about why these guys aren't Nazi thugs. :cry:
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Re: Scientists scramble to safeguard data ahead of 'scrubber

Unread postby sjn » Sat 17 Dec 2016, 13:31:37

dohboi wrote:" Nazi's were not anti-science, although they also believed in many psudeo-scientific and meta-physical ideas for which there is a questionable basis, to say the least! They utilised science to their benefit, and supported research to that end. They were also master propagandists, a discipline which is now largely provided by the MSM (not currently, at least, pro-Trump) as dissident points out. They also used fear and intimidation to silence critics and opponents which is a common feature, but Trump is a rabble-rouser, he lacks the skill of a true propagandist."

Soooo, not seeing a lot of difference, here.

Obviously, Rex T and his cronies 'utilizes science to their benefit, and support research to that end.'
They do that, although in a very reductionist way. See my recent posts about reductionist science vs systems science in the ETP thread. Regarding Rex and EXXON, generally, good science doesn't involve burying results you don't like! ;-)

Why you think MSM is not pro-Trump is beyond me. They played his speeches non-stop, even while almost completely blanking out Sanders. Meanwhile he has Fox and Breitbart and lots of other outlets 100% in his camp. Because he has not yet totally squashed all other voices is hardly comforting.
I have been to the US a few times and experienced Fox News, I can well believe that, but News Corp aside US MSM was, as far as I could tell from over here, more anti-Sanders than Pro-Trump. MSM represents the neo-liberal establishment, not Trumpism IMHO. We have lots of News Corp media here too, but it's much more subtle, it was quite eye-opening to see the difference.

"They also used fear and intimidation to silence critics"

And what do you call what Trump does to all his critics?
Read it again, I conceded that much.

Really, you are very eloquently making the very case you pretend to be opposing. Thanks for that. But I was hoping that you would be able to come up with some more comforting revelations about why these guys aren't Nazi thugs. :cry:

You're onto me! Seriously, like Newfie, I'm no fan of Trump, but I don't believe he has the competence to be like the Nazis. As much as the Nazi's were extremely unpleasant, they were very effective and achieved their objectives until they thankfully overreached. Trump is, in my opinion, overreaching from the outset. 1930s Germany was in a position very unlike the US of today, the Nazi's recognised that Germany was constrained to poverty and economic contraction, not by physical limits to growth, but political shackles, both self-imposed and externally mediated due to treaty obligations. They set out to remove those shackles by creating a narrative that the people got behind which enabled them to scapegoat minorities freeing Germans to work collectively, and produce an environment where treaties could be disregarded and broken as the machinations of those minorities, particularly the Jews.

As much as Trump might like to use that playbook, it's not going to work.
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Re: Scientists scramble to safeguard data ahead of 'scrubber

Unread postby dohboi » Sat 17 Dec 2016, 14:03:01

Trump was considered a joke early on in the primaries, yet he became the (probable) president elect. There was some kind of competence there, I would say. Greater competence than a dozen or so others.

As to scapegoating minorities...are you sure that you aren't actually trying to convince me that these guys are actually Nazis??
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