[sparky]

.
Meanwhile in Beijing
" China foreign minister says willing to help Russia "
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/12/2 ... 4Y20141222

[vox_mundi]

From Congressional Research Services ...

Economic Crisis in Russia

... The proximate cause of the sell-off was likely a deal announced between Russia's central bank and Rosneft, a major state-controlled oil company, to help cover the company's debts. Many investors viewed the nearly $11 billion deal as potentially inflationary and, given the favorable terms of the deal and the close ties between Rosneft and the Kremlin, a signal that the central bank may not be immune to political pressures.

... Capital flight: In the first three quarters of the year, net private capital outflows from Russia
totaled $85 billion, compared to net outflows of $54 billion in all of 2012. In December 2014,
Putin announced that one of Russia's sovereign wealth funds, the National Welfare Fund, would
be used to recapitalize Russian banks. ... Although the Russian government had initially been optimistic about its economic growth prospects, in early December 2014, the Bank of Russia forecasted that the economy could contract by 4.5% in 2015.

Issues to Watch
Next steps for the Russian government? How long will Russia's foreign exchange reserves last if it continues to intervene in foreign exchange markets and provide support to selected Russian firms and banks? By most measures, Russia has large foreign exchange reserves, totaling $374 billion at the end of November 2014. However, some analysts question how liquid Russia's foreign exchange reserves actually are. A former finance minister claimed the amount could be as low as $200 billion.
Some analysts have suggested that the Russian central bank could impose capital controls to stop money from leaving the country, but there are questions about the effectiveness and long-term consequences of capital controls.

Contagion to other emerging markets? Russia is a major player in the international economy: it has the world's ninth-largest economy and a population of more than 140 million. There are questions about whether investors will differentiate the economic challenges facing Russia as unique from those facing other emerging economies, such as India, South Africa, and Turkey, or whether the crisis will trigger broad capital flight from emerging markets to "safe havens," like the United States and the EU.

Spillover effects for the United States? Overall U.S. trade and investment ties with Russia are relatively limited, but some major U.S. firms, such as ExxonMobil, General Electric, Ford, and Pepsi, among many others, are active in Russia. An economic crisis or prolonged economic downturn in

Russia could directly impact these firms. It could also create disruptions in the global economy that could impact the U.S. economy more indirectly, particularly as growth in many countries—including Europe, Japan, and China—has slowed. In particular, the economic impact of the crisis on Europe could have implications for the U.S. economy, given tight U.S.-EU economic ties

[AgentR11]

Any article that suggest the Russians will impose capital controls is NUTS. There are a lot of Western wishcaster's spinning for it; but it will not happen. Period. If the ruble trades at 200, it trades at 200. Course, you have to pay those Russian taxes in rubles, and if you take one dollar for 200 rubles; well lets just say Putin won't be shedding any tears over your impending tax default.

No. They're in the pipe five-by-five. Interest rate and occasional, unpredictable buys (or sales) of modest amounts of ruble to keep the market honest. There is no turning back.

[dissident]

http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/USDRUB:CUR

As of 12/22/2014 the exchange is 55.8 rubles to one US dollar.

Some were predicting total collapse. It looks like mid 50s is the market rate. Agent's observation was correct.

[joyfulbozo]

Russia need to take difficult decisions in 2015 so as to suffer in recession as they have officiallt predicted recession in 2015.

[AgentR11]

A very exciting and interesting thing has happened, the world is doomed, Russia is doomed... or not.

It is amazing how the wishcasters pile these Russia threads full of bunk when the Ruble moves, claim incredible instability, death to the economy of Russia, collapse, Putin is overthrown... Then the ruble sits, for days, at essentially the same value; with no bank intervention, and just typical, operational buys of rubles to fund domestic government operations.

And the wishcasters are silent.

What really bugs me though, is the why. Russia and average Russians have little if any interest in fox or cnn or msnbc news. No article published in bloomberg or wsj is going to have any impact on what the Board of the Russian Central Bank chooses to do. OTOH, nothing bloomberg or wsj writes will have any impact on NATO action; NATO will not bleed for Ukraine; simply will not happen; and Ukraine will not permit the one possible NATO aid that would save them, creation of a new officer corp. Sanctions are apparently tied to Crimea afterall, and thus are permanent; they need no substantial, additional support; and the float of the ruble has made most of the Russian counter sanctions moot; as EU ag can not compete on price, to bargain hunters, with a market value currency.

Its all lines out to a big nothing. The bluster has to have some realistic goal, that Western leaders and the EU bureaucracy believe is possible.

Thoughts?
1) face saving to keep the obvious failure from being noticed
2) sales pitch to get the baltics to buy some of our newshiny gear and support our arms manufacturers
3) creation of a remote boogyman, far away, but evil..... Putin will do. Xi might do, except he could hurt us economically pretty bad if he wanted to.

??

[Tanada]

Thoughts?
1) face saving to keep the obvious failure from being noticed
2) sales pitch to get the baltics to buy some of our newshiny gear and support our arms manufacturers
3) creation of a remote boogyman, far away, but evil..... Putin will do. Xi might do, except he could hurt us economically pretty bad if he wanted to.

I would bet on #1. Blustering didn't work and we have no other arrows in the US Government quiver that we dare to use, so we bluster some mnore trying to obfuscate the situation and keep people from noticing our impotence.

[Sixstrings]

Agent: you're right, for now, about the ruble -- but it has more it could fall as things deteriorate. This is a plateau and not a bottom.

Overall -- it's hardly good economic news for Russia. Bank bailouts, capital controls, double digit inflation next year, 17% interest rates, crude oil prices half what they used to be and that could go even lower, and they're going to have to tap the rainy day reserve fund:

Russia's Economy Headed For Even More Trouble

MOSCOW, Dec 26 (Reuters) - Slumping oil prices have put Russia's economy on course for a sharp recession and double-digit inflation next year, government ministers said on Friday, as authorities scaled up a bailout for the first bank to succumb to this month's rouble crisis.

The economy is slowing sharply as Western sanctions over the Ukraine crisis deter foreign investment and spur capital flight, and as a slump in oil prices severely reduces Russia's export revenues and pummels the rouble.

...

"Next year we will, without doubt, have to bring the Reserve Fund into play," he said, referring to one of Russia's two rainy-day funds intended to support the economy at times of crisis.

Crude prices have almost halved from their June peak amid a global glut and a decision by producer group OPEC not to cut output. Saudi Arabia said on Friday it was prepared to withstand a prolonged period of low prices.

"We need to have our budget break even at $70 per barrel by 2017," said Siluanov.

Russia's government imposed informal capital controls this week, including orders to large state-controlled oil and gas exporters Gazprom and Rosneft to sell some of their dollar revenues to shore up the rouble.

Russians have kept a wary eye on the exchange rate since the collapse of the Soviet Union. Hyper-inflation wiped out their savings over several years in the early 1990s and the rouble collapsed again in 1998.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/26/russia-economy-inflation-recession_n_6383064.html

In fighting Ukraine, all Russia is doing is making itself an economic mess like Ukraine was. So what's the point. What has been gained. Russia was doing far better before all this -- they should have eased up on some human rights issues and then folks could have clapped more genuinely at their olympics, then spend all the money on promoting economic development not the military; if they'd done all that and stayed out of Ukraine then they'd be in a better spot right now.

But they just can't let go.. of Ukraine.. and other places.. it could be their downfall, same as Napoleon should have known when to stop.

And in the 21st century, senseless 19th century wars of Crimea and the Ukraine don't even make any darn money. Annexation and separatist states drain the treasury, not fill it.

Look at crimea -- billions to convert the banks, they gotta build a bridge, they've got to build power plants now, on and on and on. So all that cost going on, along with the cost of Russia's military buildup, combined with all the sanctions -- it adds up to annexation just not being profitable, to the contrary, it's gonna bankrupt them they try any more of these.

[AgentR11]

Agent: you're right, for now, about the ruble -- but it has more it could fall as things deteriorate. This is a plateau and not a bottom.

I am right. And you don't even seem to understand that it doesn't matter if it falls more or not. What matters is that it floats and is not supported by central bank intervention. Its fine if the ruble is at 50. Its fine if the ruble is at 100. It is *NOT FINE* if the ruble is at 60 and supported by a continuous stream of dollars coming from Russian Central Bank.

It is *JUST* a number. It doesn't matter a hill of beans that the Yen is 120 to the dollar. What matters is that if I take $5 to Japan, I can buy a burger; and if a guy from Japan takes 600 yen to the US, he can buy a burger, very much like the one I bought. That is the sign of a floated currency; we take equivalent value from one place to the other and experience a similar degree of purchasing power.

The exchange rate on a currency is not a horse race; there is no point of victory or utter defeat. The problem with the ruble is that it has never before experienced price discovery; no one had any idea what the thing was worth until the beginning of November; and then they took the breaks off hard and fast, brutal even. A ruble trading at a 100 / US$ does not indicate a weak Russia, and a ruble trading at 20 / US$ does not indicate a strong Russia.

Overall -- it's hardly good economic news for Russia. Bank bailouts, capital controls, double digit inflation next year, 17% interest rates, crude oil prices half what they used to be and that could go even lower, and they're going to have to tap the rainy day reserve fund:

How many banks have we bailed out? We survived the experience. Disagree about "capital controls"; what's going on now isn't capital controls; its education. Russia has to teach its exporters how to behave in the land of a floating ruble; it'll take some time; but its not a terribly hard trick to master. Inflation and interest rates.... kinda good, kinda bad, but given that the ruble was so vastly overvalued up till recently, they made it without dieing.

Reserves and oil price. I'm pretty sure a long term oil producer like Russia is a aware the price goes up.... and the price goes down.

Your wishcasting of a Russia bankrupting itself is quaint, but simply improbable. If only because you're trying to add up all the stuff Russians say they're gonna build before they actually build it. They'll build only what they can afford. The rest will simply be left undone and tolerated.

[Sixstrings]

I am right. And you don't even seem to understand that it doesn't matter if it falls more or not. What matters is that it floats and is not supported by central bank intervention. Its fine if the ruble is at 50. Its fine if the ruble is at 100. It is *NOT FINE* if the ruble is at 60 and supported by a continuous stream of dollars coming from Russian Central Bank.

Agreed.

Are you saying 50 is the bottom, though? I'll make a bet with you, for bragging rights -- at some point in the next year there will be one to two more serious bottoms, maybe three, below 50.

Hyperinflation is serious business and that is what they're headed for, possibly.

It is *JUST* a number. It doesn't matter a hill of beans that the Yen is 120 to the dollar. What matters is that if I take $5 to Japan, I can buy a burger; and if a guy from Japan takes 600 yen to the US, he can buy a burger, very much like the one I bought. That is the sign of a floated currency; we take equivalent value from one place to the other and experience a similar degree of purchasing power.

It matters to Russians in Moscow going to the market to buy coffee, tea, or Pringles potato chips or any number of other American brands / imported commodities from abroad. There's no tea or sugar grown in Russia.

Russians saw hyperinflation and ruble crash in the 90s, they know all about that.

The exchange rate on a currency is not a horse race; there is no point of victory or utter defeat. The problem with the ruble is that it has never before experienced price discovery;

I would agree with you that the float is healthy, long term.

It's just that their economy is tanking right now and things are going to get worse.

How many banks have we bailed out? We survived the experience.

Big difference -- the US federal reserve prints money. It can do that because it is global reserve currency and trade / petro currency and everyone buys US bonds and even if they don't buy bonds the Fed can just create money to buy the bonds.

Russia cannot do that. The Russian ruble is backed by the foreign currencies coming in, trade from gas and oil sales. If they are shoring up the ruble then that's euros they're using to buy those rubles with.

There's no good spin on this. 17% interest rate, double digit inflation coming, banks in trouble, capital still fleeing, new capital afraid to invest in Russia.

Russia has to teach its exporters how to behave in the land of a floating ruble; it'll take some time; but its not a terribly hard trick to master.

You sound like the "liberoids" from the 90s that Radon talks about. Agent, Russians do not have a lot of patience or love for "learning how to behave in the land of a floating ruble," that's what they're so pissed off about from the 90s.

But I agree with you. The ruble float is good, but sanctions and all the other consequences of Putin's policies are bringing them down.

If they wanted a ruble float and "reforms" and hyperinflation and economic pain, they could have just joined the West rather than fighting it so I don't get the point. Fighting the West has not won them anything.

Reserves and oil price. I'm pretty sure a long term oil producer like Russia is a aware the price goes up.... and the price goes down.

I don't think it's ever gone down this much. Other than during the USSR, and that price drop was engineered by the US and Saudis as a cold war maneuver, and this one may be too, and we know how the last time worked out.

Your wishcasting of a Russia bankrupting itself is quaint, but simply improbable. If only because you're trying to add up all the stuff Russians say they're gonna build before they actually build it. They'll build only what they can afford. The rest will simply be left undone and tolerated.

Well they can't just annex a place the size of Belgium and let it rot.

Does anyone know what crimea has cost them, so far, just in transition costs? It's so much they've had to do. Doubling pensions. All the banking switch over, the whole economy, getting new government up and running. Then that big bridge they have to build, and the power plants. It's a big deal to do nation building, it costs a lot of money and my point is that at the same time they're getting economically hammered from sanctions and free market punishment, while just bleeding money into crimea, and what is it all for? It has not been profitable, it has not made them money.

OTOH, in 50 years, Crimea will probably still be Russian. It's a bit of land gain, and strategic, so that's something. They're sure paying a high price though.

[radon1]

You sound like the "liberoids" from the 90s that Radon talks about.

Quite the opposite, the liberoids are exactly the ones that have kept rouble artificially "strong". That's why they are liberoids rather than liberals.

Interesting, Russia's trade with the US has been growing over the past several months. According to Putin, imports from the US have grown 23%.

[AgentR11]

I am right. And you don't even seem to understand that it doesn't matter if it falls more or not. What matters is that it floats and is not supported by central bank intervention. Its fine if the ruble is at 50. Its fine if the ruble is at 100. It is *NOT FINE* if the ruble is at 60 and supported by a continuous stream of dollars coming from Russian Central Bank.

Agreed.

Are you saying 50 is the bottom, though? I'll make a bet with you, for bragging rights -- at some point in the next year there will be one to two more serious bottoms, maybe three, below 50.

I had picked 70 as a spike bottom; in reality, the spike ended up much narrower in time than I expected, and it went farther; and I have a really obnoxious feeling Putin Inc did that *on purpose* (via Rosneft refi) , to burn some folks; they made some folks buy dollars at 75+, and taxes in rubles will be payable in a few days, which they'll get back at 55; someone took a 25% spread via Cynic Express. My initial 50 guess was a long term average. Oil prices have fallen a bit further sense then, and I'm having debates with myself whether the market value of the ruble will end up around 55, or whether it will be closer to 62.

Betting would be really silly though, because the Central Bank really does have enough reserves to chicken out and return to their bad old ways for a while; they also have a much more malevolent tool in that they are authorized to buy dollars. They can take the ruble to 100/$ simply by choosing to do so. Given that they have all of 2 months of reputation as a freely traded currency... I wouldn't trust them with a used lollipop stick.

It matters to Russians in Moscow going to the market to buy coffee, tea, or Pringles potato chips or any number of other American brands / imported commodities from abroad. There's no tea or sugar grown in Russia.

That gets to the core of the matter though, right there. For years that tea and sugar was paid for, not by the Moscovite guy's labor, but by Gazprom subsidy via the Central Bank. Now, tea is, or should be, a Chinese import. Sugar though, or as we call it, High Fructose Corn Syrup, could have been produced in Russia, but the import subsidy prevented it from being profitable. Guess what doesn't exist anymore. The import subsidy. The story is not the inflation, as long as it all chaotically meanders its way to a new set of comparable prices and wages, its fine, even quite high. The story is the ending of the import subsidy, and the permission to now produce those things in Russia, and the ability to make a profit in the doing.

It's just that their economy is tanking right now and things are going to get worse.

Tanking is an overstatement. It was measured wrong to begin with. Again, we measure it in dollars gdp... which was based on exchange rate, which was horribly manipulated. The export gpd of oil and gas were clean and honest, but have fallen as a result of price; no different from folks in Houston taking it on the chin here as oil & gas prices have fallen over the years. We still produce the stuff, there's probably just a few less bmw 7's and a few more bmw 5's running around. The domestic economy; excluding oil & gas, in Russia, is not contracting; and likely won't. Measuring it will be a pain in the butt of course.

How many banks have we bailed out? We survived the experience.

Big difference -- the US federal reserve prints money.

Last I checked, the Russian bank in question was bailed out using rubles.

Russia cannot do that. The Russian ruble is backed by the foreign currencies coming in, trade from gas and oil sales. If they are shoring up the ruble then that's euros they're using to buy those rubles with.

They are *NOT* shoring up the ruble, and they will not shore up the ruble in that fashion. You can forget that fantasy. They already know they're a hundred billion dollar fish in a multi trillion dollar pond; as much as we want them to take the bait and annihilate themselves to the profit of Soros, they will not go there. The ruble is not backed by anything anymore. Its pure fiat.

Russia has to teach its exporters how to behave in the land of a floating ruble; it'll take some time; but its not a terribly hard trick to master.

You sound like the "liberoids" from the 90s that Radon talks about. Agent, Russians do not have a lot of patience or love for "learning how to behave in the land of a floating ruble," that's what they're so pissed off about from the 90s.

I disagree. And not for some Russian patriotic thing they might experience. They will suck it up, and the wealthy will smile, or the wealthy will smile under house arrest, or the wealthy will wake up smiling, penniless on the Polish side of the border in a canvas sack. This is no longer optional, its existential, Putin knows it, the central bank knows it, the military knows it. This is do or die warfare, and they are treating it as such.

There will be no maidan.
There will be no collapse.
And there most certainly will be no repeat of the state distributing national assets to a bunch of crooks to sell in London.

If they wanted a ruble float and "reforms" and hyperinflation and economic pain, they could have just joined the West rather than fighting it so I don't get the point. Fighting the West has not won them anything.

I do not believe Putin believes, that such could work. Putin likely believes Western powers would have used the opportunity to strip Russia of every asset she ever had.

Its the same deal with NATO, *I* know, and you know, NATO will not bleed to invade Russia; ever. Putin, and likely most high staff and military in Russia believe NATO exists for the sole purpose of sacking Moscow at the first available opportunity. Probably so much that they believe we'll risk the survival of Western cities to nuclear missiles vs interceptors in order to do it, as long as we have enough interceptors to say, "oops, well we tried." To a non NATO person, NATO looks very much like an offensive military alliance set out on a mission of economic and military conquest.

Reserves and oil price. I'm pretty sure a long term oil producer like Russia is a aware the price goes up.... and the price goes down.

I don't think it's ever gone down this much. [/quote]

???????? Its done *WAY* worse. Just the 2009 drop was much worse than this.

Well they can't just annex a place the size of Belgium and let it rot.

Assertion, not provable.
They most assuredly can.

[AgentR11]

http://veragraziadei.com/2014/12/27/we- ... xiting-it/

[Sixstrings]

Quite the opposite, the liberoids are exactly the ones that have kept rouble artificially "strong". That's why they are liberoids rather than liberals.

Well okay, but everything going on now sounds like what you all went through in the 90s. Hyperinflation looming, currency crisis, a darn bag of coffee or sugar costing so much.

I certainly agree that currency float is best in the long run.

Interesting, Russia's trade with the US has been growing over the past several months. According to Putin, imports from the US have grown 23%.

Trade is growing in part because money is fleeing to the safe haven -- the US. That one Russian beverage company buying Pabst beer, for example. It certainly seems counterintuitive, threads about nuclear war blah blah but meanwhile business goes on in the background.

OTOH, US capital investment into Russia is way down. Companies have been spooked. And Putin's done some harassing of US corps. So why would a Caterpillar or McDonalds or any of them want to invest more in Russia, just to get harassed over there? That part isn't good, that's a bad business climate.

I don't know why imports would be up, one would have to know exactly which imports are up to see the reason.

I've never been to Russia, but from what I see in youtube videos it seems like Russians like Pringles and other American brand snacks and consumer products. And they like McDonalds a lot. I guess American still has cache over there.

Seriously though, there's no reason to pay so much for darn Pringles potato chips. Funny thing about those is that it was invented as a use for potato scrap waste -- and then became a premium priced product, lol. Russia could make its own chips, I certainly don't pay these prices for the name brands. I get my chips at Dollar Tree, bag of Wise for a dollar, at the grocery store next door the same bag is $4ish.

I just wonder how Russians are going to handle such bad inflation, that's coming. It's going to mean coffee and sugar and tea and anything imported rocketing in cost. Doesn't that make anyone nervous over there? I'd sure hate it, inflation is bad enough as it is.

[radon1]

Well okay, but everything going on now sounds like what you all went through in the 90s. Hyperinflation looming, currency crisis, a darn bag of coffee or sugar costing so much.

Back in 90s prior to 1998 it was the same problem with overvalued rouble, but back then they at least had an excuse in the form of IMF's requirement for "stable" currency as a pre-requisite for IMF's lending.

Trade is growing in part because money is fleeing to the safe haven -- the US.

Sounds plausible, probably lots of shady, if not outright fake, contracts to repatriate dollars at any cost.

I just wonder how Russians are going to handle such bad inflation, that's coming. It's going to mean coffee and sugar and tea and anything imported rocketing in cost. Doesn't that make anyone nervous over there? I'd sure hate it, inflation is bad enough as it is.

There is no tradition of being nervous before the trouble actually arrives. So, no one is particularly nervous about it at the moment. More concern is about banks and deposits, because the banking crisis is already brewing, and may hit hard right after the new year. Putie has just issued a decree for 1trl rouble banking bail-out financed by the budget money. So, the budget is going to bail out various "self-made" effing "effective managers" and other pathetic morons who were borrowing in order to buy sports cars and other "lifestyle" stuff they have never been able to afford. What a joke.

[dissident]

Well okay, but everything going on now sounds like what you all went through in the 90s. Hyperinflation looming, currency crisis, a darn bag of coffee or sugar costing so much.

Back in 90s prior to 1998 it was the same problem with overvalued rouble, but back then they at least had an excuse in the form of IMF's requirement for "stable" currency as a pre-requisite for IMF's lending.

Trade is growing in part because money is fleeing to the safe haven -- the US.

Sounds plausible, probably lots of shady, if not outright fake, contracts to repatriate dollars at any cost.

I just wonder how Russians are going to handle such bad inflation, that's coming. It's going to mean coffee and sugar and tea and anything imported rocketing in cost. Doesn't that make anyone nervous over there? I'd sure hate it, inflation is bad enough as it is.

There is no tradition of being nervous before the trouble actually arrives. So, no one is particularly nervous about it at the moment. More concern is about banks and deposits, because the banking crisis is already brewing, and may hit hard right after the new year. Putie has just issued a decree for 1trl rouble banking bail-out financed by the budget money. So, the budget is going to bail out various "self-made" effing "effective managers" and other pathetic morons who were borrowing in order to buy sports cars and other "lifestyle" stuff they have never been able to afford. What a joke.

Putie weathered the 2008-9 meltdown and somehow the current blip that is miniscule in comparison is supposed to be the end of days for "the Russian tyranny and its despot Putin".

Put the crack pipe down.

[Sixstrings]

There is no tradition of being nervous before the trouble actually arrives.

Well good point, I would just have thought people in Russia would have hyperinflation more fresh in their minds.

The inflation in Russia, from ruble depreciation, is already bad. I saw a piece on CNN about hungry people in St. Petersburg, and mobile soup kitchens.

(OTOH, I thought to myself, well at least they've got soup kitchens! The hungry in my American town don't even have that much. )

More concern is about banks and deposits, because the banking crisis is already brewing, and may hit hard right after the new year. Putie has just issued a decree for 1trl rouble banking bail-out financed by the budget money. So, the budget is going to bail out various "self-made" effing "effective managers" and other pathetic morons who were borrowing in order to buy sports cars and other "lifestyle" stuff they have never been able to afford. What a joke.

How were they borrowing, with home equity loans? So is the bailout a housing bubble bailout? Is real estate now under water in Russia, worth less than what's been mortgaged out on it?

[AgentR11]

I saw the mobile soup kitchen images too; maybe this is a different set, I dunno. The last one claiming to show hungry people in St. Petersburg turned out to be disappointed visitors to a festival that had run out of that nasty boiled buckwheat that is apparently very important.

Not to say there aren't hungry people in St. Petersburg. There's hungry people in Houston and Dallas today as well, who will visit soup kitchens and other charitable sources...

So, how long can they tolerate high inflation, probably a few decades. How long will they have to tolerate high inflation now that the ruble is actually trading at fair value for the first time in the history of mankind? Probably three years. Inflation isn't really a big deal. DEFLATION is devastating, and can quickly lock an economy into decades of zero and negative growth.

[Subjectivist]

I saw the mobile soup kitchen images too; maybe this is a different set, I dunno. The last one claiming to show hungry people in St. Petersburg turned out to be disappointed visitors to a festival that had run out of that nasty boiled buckwheat that is apparently very important.

Is it just Kasha you hate, or are you offended by oatmeal and cream of wheat (wheat farina) too?

[Withnail]

I saw the mobile soup kitchen images too; maybe this is a different set, I dunno. The last one claiming to show hungry people in St. Petersburg turned out to be disappointed visitors to a festival that had run out of that nasty boiled buckwheat that is apparently very important.

Surely kasha is better for you than the cholesterol laden crap Americans eat.