[Withnail]

The sun has set on the American Empire.

The UK has done well to disentagle itself from the failing hegemon.

[ennui2]

But he did it.

To get better food and conditions.

And sure he had secrets. Tactics, missiles, the lot.

He endangered the lives of other pilots, just as he did when he crashed a plane on a carrier.

You seem to spend an awful lot of your energy bashing on this site.

Have you don't any real deep analysis into peak oil? Does any of that move you or are you more interested in gritting your teeth and shaking your fist at politicians or countries you don't like?

This is what bothers me about sites like this. On the one hand people are supposed to "get" the idea that we may be facing a malthusian catastrophe and on the other people just seem to get off on talking about the color of Obama's jacket--as if any of this crap means anything in the grand scheme of things. Political theater is just an opiate, a distraction from the big picture.

[AgentR11]

Well, people are naturally distractable, thoughts run off on tangents all the time.

Peak Oil wise, this realignment is an absolutely massive deal. Our biggest advantage over China was that they had fairly modest domestic oil production (not none, but not huge). By pushing Russia into their sphere of influence; we've completely changed their long term, strategic vision. That can't be understated. They don't even have to do anything; but just go with the flow; the Russians are asking the Chinese to come into more Siberian and Arctic projects, than China has the ability to service. Its like waking up one morning at your business, and finding a line of customers outside your door, and they all want your stuff, and they all want really long term contracts, and they're mostly willing to accept whatever terms work best for you.

Seriously, its hard to overstate how massive this shift is.

Russia will be their Saudi Arabia; but with no dangerous sea lanes needing protecting, or unpredictable religious freedom fighters making a mess. Just Russians looking to sell oil and gas for cash to buy vodka, chocolate, and all the little plastic electronic doodads made in China.

That oil and gas should have been Europe's security blanket going into the end of this century.

[ennui2]

By pushing Russia into their sphere of influence; we've

What do you mean "pushing"? In what universe was Russia ever going to be on our side? Putin has been demonizing the West for many years now, over issues that really are more in his head than anything else. It's not our fault how things are playing out.

[AgentR11]

By pushing Russia into their sphere of influence; we've

What do you mean "pushing"? In what universe was Russia ever going to be on our side? Putin has been demonizing the West for many years now, over issues that really are more in his head than anything else. It's not our fault how things are playing out.

fault fault fault fault fault fault. Who cares whose fault it is. I don't. Blame me personally if you want. Couldn't care less. The only thing that matters is the result; and whether our actions could have created a different result. The current result that we ended up with absolutely sucks for the EU, is kinda mediocre for us, and is an absolute treasure wrapped in silk delivered effort free to China.

And its not a question of side; Russia's not really on anyone's side; they don't WANT alliances of any sort.

To answer the direct question, what do I mean by "pushing". I mean our steady encirclement and crippling of Russia since the break up of the USSR. We looted them viciously for years, and even when they were on to it; we had them kinda finessed into a comfortable doom with the way the overvalued ruble and oil exports were controlled by folks not interested in Russia's future, but in their own fancy houses in London and yachts on the Med. We broke their Mediterranean port in Syria; and we almost succeeded in stripping Russia of the right to use Sevastopol as their Black Sea naval base.

Our actions made Europe into a slow poison for Russia; the only future Russia had with Europe at the point this came apart was first as slave and then as corpse.

So they went with the customer who wasn't trying to kill them. Rationale enough in my book.

[Keith_McClary]

BS from Harperland:
NATO officials contradict Jason Kenney’s claim that Russian fighter jets flew over Canadian navy frigate

The Defence Department now says there was a low-level flight by a Russian plane over a Canadian frigate in the Black Sea but it can’t provide any details to back up the Conservative government’s contention that Russian warships confronted HMCS Fredericton.

NATO officials maintain there was no such confrontation and Russian warships stayed far away from the Canadian ship which was part of an alliance maritime task force.

James Bezan, parliamentary secretary to Minister of National Defence Jason Kenney, told the Commons Tuesday that: “Since arriving in the Black Sea, Royal Canadian Navy sailors have been confronted by Russian warships and buzzed by Russian fighter jets.”

Kenney repeated the claim the next day, stating that a Russian jet buzzed the Canadian frigate HMCS Fredericton at low altitude.


The Ottawa Citizen asked the Department of National Defence on Wednesday for details of the incidents but DND couldn’t provide those and instead referred all questions to NATO.

But NATO officials said the frigate was not buzzed and there was no confrontation with Russian warships. There were Russian overflights of the NATO maritime task force but those were at higher altitudes, they added.

[dissident]

The chihuahua in Ottawa needs to feel important and relevant. So makes stuff up and yaps about it.

[ennui2]

fault fault fault fault fault fault. Who cares whose fault it is.

You do, based on how you write further down. You are playing apologist for Russia whether you want to admit it or not.

To answer the direct question, what do I mean by "pushing". I mean our steady encirclement and crippling of Russia since the break up of the USSR.

Whose fault was it that communism failed in the first place? Russia. They say if you can't beat em, join em. So Russia reluctantly adopted capitalism. Why are you spinning this as some matinee movie narrative of the evil west turning thumb-screws to Russia? I never detected any desire on the West's part to make Russia "suffer" post-breakup. The door was open for them to bury the hatchet and join us, and they just proceeded to go into thug-o-cracy territory, which is, let's face it, interwoven with their rise as a stereotypical corrupt petro-state (i.e. Gazprom and Lukoil).

You'd think after 911 that Russia would join hands with us in solidarity, as they suffer through terrorism through Chechnya. But no, they have to wrap their arms around middle-eastern dictatorships due not to ideology, but long-standing business-deals. It's no different with China continuing to prop up the albatross of North Korea, except there NK offers very little in return.

So as far as there being friction over competing foreign policy, I'd say Russia at least shares half of the blame for getting in bed with a lot of bad actors on the world stage who cause a lot of problems in the international community. It's a bad investment. What can they expect?

We broke their Mediterranean port in Syria; and we almost succeeded in stripping Russia of the right to use Sevastopol as their Black Sea naval base.

There is a double-standard to this rhetoric. It's okay for Russia to engage in imperialist colonial capitalism but when we edge in on their territory then it's "out with US hegemony!" BS Hypocrisy.

Maybe if Russia stopped coddling a-hole dictators they'd get into fewer jams like this. It's much easier to point finger at the other guy.

the only future Russia had with Europe at the point this came apart was first as slave and then as corpse.

Useless poetic hyperbole. Excuse me for not weeping for Russia the martyrs.

So they went with the customer who wasn't trying to kill them. Rationale enough in my book.

If it's just a race to the bottom with cold hard capitalism then you've got nothing to whine about. Let both sides follow their selfish agendas and if it leads to WWIII then nobody really is to blame. But what I don't like is these double-standard arguments.

[Strummer]

I never detected any desire on the West's part to make Russia "suffer" post-breakup.

You have no idea. You can start educating yourself here:

http://jeffsachs.org/2012/03/what-i-did-in-russia/

The lack of Western assistance was grim and was my greatest frustration[32] during late 1991 and 1992. The early days were inauspicious to say the least. When the G-7 deputies came to Moscow in late November 1991, just a few days after Gaidar had come to power as head of Yeltsin’s economic team, the main focus of the G-7 message was the urgency that the Soviet Union should continue to service the external debts at any cost. There was no discussion of the upcoming economic reforms, and no realism among the G-7 deputies about the extreme desperation of the economic scene. Gaidar was warned by the assembled powers that day that any suspension of debt payments would result in the immediate suspension of urgent food aid, and that ships nearly arrived at the Black Sea ports would turn around. Russia in fact continued to service the debts for a few more weeks before completely running out of cash by February 1992.

In December 1991 I had continuing discussions with the IMF about Western assistance for Russia. The IMF’s point man, Mr. John Odling Smee, who lasted for a decade as the head of the IMF’s efforts, was busy telling the G-7 that Russia needed no aid, that the “balance of payments gap” as calculated by the IMF was essentially zero. I believe that the IMF was simply parroting the political decisions already decided by the United States, rather than making an independent assessment. This is just a conjecture, but I make it because of the very low quality of IMF analysis and deliberations. They seemed to be driving towards conclusions irrespective of the evidence. The IMF’s approach was in any event just what the rich countries wanted to hear. The technical methodology was primitive beyond belief.

To summarize a long saga succinctly, Russia never received much in grant aid, stabilization support,[33] or debt relief.

[AgentR11]

fault fault fault fault fault fault. Who cares whose fault it is.

You do, based on how you write further down.

NO. I do not care about fault. If you want it to be Russia's fault, I'm perfectly fine with it being Russia's fault. That doesn't change the RESULT, which is what I do care about.

We broke their Mediterranean port in Syria; and we almost succeeded in stripping Russia of the right to use Sevastopol as their Black Sea naval base.

There is a double-standard to this rhetoric. It's okay for Russia to engage in imperialist colonial capitalism but when we edge in on their territory then it's "out with US hegemony!" BS Hypocrisy.

Of course its not OK, right, whatever. DO NOT CARE What I care about is oil and gas going to Europe. What I care about is China being forced to pay top dollar for energy, instead of bargain basement ruble/renminbi.

Putin and Russia are evil, disgusting, slime. (Poroshenko and Ukraine are the same btw.. if not worse, but just too poor to express just how evil they are)

But they are slime with resources that I want (and the West should want) going one way, and our policy is causing to go the other way.

the only future Russia had with Europe at the point this came apart was first as slave and then as corpse.

Useless poetic hyperbole. Excuse me for not weeping for Russia the martyrs.

Who asked you to weep. I'm not weeping. I want them economically obliterated. After, of course, they ship all their goodies to Europe. Perfection is them shipping everything they own and grow to us, and we'll allocate them a bowl of porridge a day. Seems fair enough to me, it can even be buckwheat, which seems to be a favorite.

So they went with the customer who wasn't trying to kill them. Rationale enough in my book.

If it's just a race to the bottom with cold hard capitalism then you've got nothing to whine about. Let both sides follow their selfish agendas and if it leads to WWIII then nobody really is to blame. But what I don't like is these double-standard arguments.

I'm whining because we didn't get the prize. Not because I give a flip about the pathetic piece of refuse that is Russia. We friggin gave it away for a substitute that is just as vile and repulsive, but worth a tenth (if that) as much in resources.

Oh, and I don't care who is to blame for WWIII. Because it won't matter. No one will be around to record who was to blame. You're just like six, happy to see the world burn in nuclear fire, as long as it isn't our fault.

[ennui2]

But they are slime with resources that I want

Ah, so now we now where your biases are. The spice must flow.

our policy is causing to go the other way.

The way the global economy works is, if you want to take the ball and go home, you're entitled to do it. You don't like this, too bad. You're not entitled to consume any other country's energy exports.

[AgentR11]

But they are slime with resources that I want

Ah, so now we now where your biases are. The spice must flow.

My biases have always been open-book. I make no excuses for them.

The way the global economy works is, if you want to take the ball and go home, you're entitled to do it. You don't like this, too bad. You're not entitled to consume any other country's energy exports.

Certainly not entitled, but we DID have the ability to craft policy that would cause those resources to move in a direction that was to the service of the West. Instead, we crafted self-destructive policies that have caused the future of those resources to be locked in, and locked in for someone NOT US.

To be clear; I'm not angry at Russia; their choice was rational, even if I don't like them; they made the decisions that will best serve their interests. I'm angry at the morons in our state department that set up the scenario that permitted this result to occur. This result is catastrophic, and its negative repercussions will echo on long after I'm dust in the earth.

And Xi is just gonna sit there like a smug bastard cashing in with his only exertion being the effort needed to form the word for "deal" in Russian.

[Sixstrings]

Instead, we crafted self-destructive policies that have caused the future of those resources to be locked in, and locked in for someone NOT US.

To be clear; I'm not angry at Russia; their choice was rational, even if I don't like them; they made the decisions that will best serve their interests. I'm angry at the morons in our state department that set up the scenario that permitted this result to occur. This result is catastrophic, and its negative repercussions will echo on long after I'm dust in the earth.

Your argument seems to put all the blame on the West.

The way I see is that Putin veered off the Western track a long time ago, around '03 I think it was.

What makes you think Russia would WANT to be with the West, when Putin has clearly taken them down another track.

What makes you think they could ever be convinced, that there is some magic thing we could do to make them feel at home in our boat.

The only thing I can think of is that at one point, years ago, Putin mentioned maybe he'd be intersted in a "Vladivostok to Lisbon" free trade zone. But who even knows if he was serious, and that one up to the Europeans -- we don't control them -- and Europe said no.

So I don't know what else we could have done. USAF and nasa was, and still is, buying Russian rocket engines. There was plenty of trade, Europe even disarming and just selling Russia weapons too, and Europe would have used all Russian gas for all time if only Russia were a friend / at least frenemy.

What more could have been done. The only thing that could not have been done, which Putin apparently wanted, was acceptance of Russian style corruption and mafia state stuff. The West will never fully embrace that, we just can't, to do so would be to become something different ourselves.

[AgentR11]

You guys are obsessed with blame. I'm perfectly fine with blaming Russia. Couldn't care less.

What apparently Putin wanted was for NATO to not build a naval base in Sevastopol.
Putin got what he wanted.

[dissident]

Sanctimony from Washington is pure bloody chutzpah. Washington backed the KLA militants in their quest to secede Kosovo from Serbia and then proceeded to build one of the biggest US bases in Europe, Camp Bondsteel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Bondsteel

Crimea was part of Russia before the USA even existed. I applaud Putin for getting it back from the illegal status it was in thanks to General Secretary of the Communist Party of the USSR. That NATO recognized it being part of Ukraine after 1991 means precisely f*ck all.

[ennui2]

This result is catastrophic, and its negative repercussions will echo on long after I'm dust in the earth.

I disagree on your hysteria about catastrophic consequences. I mean, you seem all too certain of a specific outcome and the track-record of doomers here is piss-poor on that front. Iran Cable Cut and the supervolcano in the midwest, etc...

[AgentR11]

Disagreement is fine... its just a prediction. But I dunno what iran cable cut is, nor was I aware of any supervolcanos in the mid west. Yellowstone is one, but there's no guessing when suc h things erupt.

[ennui2]

Disagreement is fine... its just a prediction. But I dunno what iran cable cut is, nor was I aware of any supervolcanos in the mid west. Yellowstone is one, but there's no guessing when suc h things erupt.

You can always look in the history of this forum. It's all in here. But at various points in the past, there was a hysteria over certain current events. The internet cable going to iran got accidentally cut by a trawler or something and knee-jerk everyone thought the US had intentionally cut things in order to stop the oil bourse trading in currencies other than the dollar.

So the pattern I've seen here every time I stick my nose in is that the least amount of saber-rattling going on leads to predictions of WWIII and they never materialize.

The supervolcano stuff, there was some Yellowstone caldera activity some years back and people were starting to make their plans for the end of the world, but then it blew over.

So any sort of military exercise doesn't even register on my radar. I mean, we've lived through some pretty scary close calls, especially with the antics of North Korea, and WWIII hasn't broken out. I don't think it's gonna happen. I think that shaking your fist at "the west"(TM) is a tactic that a lot of countries love to employ in order to distract its population from internal problems. It isn't indicative of actual military intentions. Since Putin is tracking down the well-worn path of dictatorships, he's adopted this "We're all downtrodden victims, boo hoo hoo" attitude in order to stir nationalism that goes at least as far back as Hitler. If that causes some here to jump on the bandwagon of playing apologist to him and kicking the teeth of the West, well, that's to be expected from this misfit demographic. Doesn't mean the actual talking points have a leg to stand on, though. It's just people bitching because they have a hypocritical axe to grind.

[radon1]

All this does not necessarily prevent Putin from being helpful when addressing external threats, even to those people who are unhappy with his performance regarding internal problems.

"A leader should not address external threats because he has internal problems to deal with" - kinda faulty logic.