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Richest 10% Produce 50% of Carbon Emissions

Re: Richest 10% = Us = Planet Killers

Unread postby dohboi » Fri 04 Dec 2015, 15:10:55

I'm not assuming anything.

You don' know the future.

Neither do I.

But we do know the present.

Which you obviously want to avoid looking at.

Since it doesn't exactly paint you in the best light.

Really, many poster on certain subjects here seem very much like small boys who, when discovered doing some mischief, loudly protest, " But Billy did it, too!" or in this case, " But Billy might someday in the future have a glimmering chance of doing it, too!" :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Richest 10% = Us = Planet Killers

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 04 Dec 2015, 15:52:52

Doh,

I've been down this argument with you before. Each time I bring up certain points you deflect and ignore my posts.

You have a particular passion on this that defies logic. Your emotion is beyond reason.

When YOU grow up and can carry on a sustained discussion we can continue the conversation.

But it really annoys me hearing you accuse others of the behavior you so often exhibit.

I'm sorry that this is bordering on and has the flavor of a personal attack. But since you will not debate openly and in good faith I decline to discuss the topic with you.
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Re: Richest 10% = Us = Planet Killers

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 04 Dec 2015, 16:13:03

there-are-more-people-living-inside-this-circle-than-outside-of-it.jpg
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Re: Richest 10% = Us = Planet Killers

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 04 Dec 2015, 16:14:13

Plantagenet wrote:
dohboi wrote:"The richest 10% have, on average, carbon footprints 11 times that of the poorest 3.5 billion people on the planet"

Another reason that population is not the main problem.


You're assuming that the poorest 3.5 billion people will be content to continue to be the poorest 3.5 billion people and keep the same impoverished lifestyle.

That isn' true.

What poor people in India and other third world poverty holes want more than anything else is your lifestyle. Just as China modernized and their carbon output exploded, now India, Indonesia, VietNam, Tanzania, Nigeria, Egypt, etc etc. also want to modernize and live like Americans.

Image
What kind of car do you want when you grow up?


Exactly true Plant.

We are all alike after all, each one of us has the same DNA. It's not like killing off the rich would wipe out bad DNA.
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Re: Richest 10% = Us = Planet Killers

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 04 Dec 2015, 16:42:48

dohboi wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/environment/global-warming/Worlds-richest-10-produce-50-of-CO2-Report/articleshow/50020466.cms

World's richest 10% produce 50% of CO2

the poorest half-most threatened by droughts and super storms linked to climate change–contribute a mere 10%


We have met the enemy...

So you've changed your mind? It's not the evil animal eaters, but the evil rich? The far left would be so proud of you -- but wait -- do they need to stone Al Gore, or themselves (for the limousine liberal class)?

Do you realize it's possible to be fairly wealthy and live a lower middle class lifestyle with a relatively small carbon footprint (for the first world -- sue me for being born in the US). It's possible for "rich" people to, say, give money to charity, family, needy friends, and invest in green tech instead of spewing all the carbon their wallets can afford, but let's never, never talk about THAT. :roll:

Instead, let's follow the far left blueprint and paint everyone with the same brush (as in "The GOP is a "racist" party) -- it's so much easier to incite the whining and blaming that way.

Congratulations. MSNBC would be so proud.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Richest 10% = Us = Planet Killers

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 04 Dec 2015, 16:45:02

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Re: Richest 10% = Us = Planet Killers

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 04 Dec 2015, 16:54:23

According to this site https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/get-inv ... children=2

If your after tax income (adjusted for the US) was $1,000 for a family of 2 adults and 2 children ...
you are in the richest 91.5% of the worlds population

and

If you donated 10% of your income you would still be in the richest 93.6% of the worlds population. (Don't ask, I don't know. But it makes you wonder about their math skills.)
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Re: Richest 10% = Us = Planet Killers

Unread postby dohboi » Fri 04 Dec 2015, 18:00:31

Yeah, that seems a bit off.

" the poor consume only a miniscule proportion of the resources with the highest income group accounting for 86% of global consumption while the poorest consume only 1.3%"

Presumably 'group' here means quintile.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_pop ... trol#Myths
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Re: Richest 10% = Us = Planet Killers

Unread postby dinopello » Fri 04 Dec 2015, 18:10:53

Here's another way to look at it.

If you are sitting on more than an acre of arable land then you are using more than your share. If you use that extra to produce useful resources (e.g. food) for people who are taking up much less space then we'll let you slide.
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Re: Richest 10% = Us = Planet Killers

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 04 Dec 2015, 18:16:12

Newfie and Plantagent are right. I have witnessed this in the 30 years I have lived, married into, traveled and done business in developing countries spanning Latin America, The Philippines and Thailand. There is nothing inherently noble about being poor. Your increased generosity and humility having less is actually a great lesson for all of us to ponder, but if you gave a million bucks to one thousand poor people in a developing countries and went back 10 years later I can assure you that 990,000 of them would be high consumers and maybe 10 would choose a small carbon footprint.

This is our current human culture.

Where I would however focus more on wealthy countries is that unfortunately they do set the standard of status, fashion, what is trendy that developing countries do look toward as representing upward mobility.

It is the 10% of the richest that have to take the lead in making frugality cool and sexy, to lower your carbon footprint as a symbol of status. Humans are like sheep in following which ever trend is seen as modern and cool and representing status.

The 10% of the wealthiest have a huge role to define what status means in the 21st century as the rest of the world will likely follow. Or maybe not. I am not so sure if trends up till now can be reliably projected forward...but there is a good chance if rich nations took the lead in real hard choices of cutting back on consumption that this could actually be associated with status.

Beyond the utilitarian value of a washing machine most consumption objects are really about status or buying what is thought of as being cool.
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Re: Richest 10% = Us = Planet Killers

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 04 Dec 2015, 18:17:22

It is fair and apt to point out how we yes us people in the rich countries have been using products and technology that are not good for the planet. Things like plastic, computers, cell phones all leaving a long lasting legacy of contamination. Not to mention radiation accidents ala Chernobyl , I urge others to research statistics on children born from parents of Chernobly area. Not to mention of course the ubiquitious fossil fuels and their pollution and contamination. So in any discussion of the deleterious effects of consumerism vis-a-vis overpopulation, one must also take all this into account. It is a facile argument to say oh these billions want to live like Americans, when in fact most do not and maybe will never do so. We in the rich countries set the example of how NOT to live. We enjoyed ourselves at the expense of the future habitibility of the planet. I am guilty and I accept my part of the guilt as we should all. Finally, it is also a superficial argument to say well if those huge populations of Asia did not increase their populations so much, in fact the urge to procreate and have sex is an biological imperative and their are also practical reasons people have children including among others lack of birth control, assistance for the elders parents etc. So rabid consumerism was much more controllable than overpopulation
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Re: Richest 10% = Us = Planet Killers

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 04 Dec 2015, 18:30:01

The other thought that always arises when the focus goes on the richest 10% is that if the human population was exactly 10% of what it is , or just 730 million, how much easier it would be to transition over to sustainable energy and agriculture and still maintain a high standard of living while sharing our planet with healthy intact ecosystems. Just a thought. Overpopulation IS the problem.
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Re: Richest 10% = Us = Planet Killers

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 04 Dec 2015, 18:43:50

Yes Ibon, but not for the sake of being critical, I wonder if that was ever feasible. You who are in this field, are not populations of any species going to procreate and reproduce in accordance with the available food. So fossil fuels, modern medicine and agriculture made possible this huge population gain. I just have to wonder if it was truly practically within humanities capacity to stop increading their population considering these advancements I just mentioned. Just an opinion but I just feel it is a bit hypothetical musing to believe we were really going to control our population
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Re: Richest 10% = Us = Planet Killers

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 04 Dec 2015, 19:08:21

So rabid consumerism was much more controllable than overpopulation


You are assuming that the desire to consume is NOT as strong as the desire for sex. I disagree with that. It's hard to argue it on a thread like that, way too long. But I feel strongly that is true.
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Re: Richest 10% = Us = Planet Killers

Unread postby ohanian » Fri 04 Dec 2015, 19:13:44

Newfie wrote:According to this site https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/get-inv ... children=2

If your after tax income (adjusted for the US) was $1,000 for a family of 2 adults and 2 children ...
you are in the richest 91.5% of the worlds population

and

If you donated 10% of your income you would still be in the richest 93.6% of the worlds population. (Don't ask, I don't know. But it makes you wonder about their math skills.)


Holy shit! You are telling me that dirty filthy drug addict beggar white trash whores in United States who earns more than $1000 per year is RICHER than 91.5% of the world's population?

Why the hell am I giving my money to those beggars on the street?
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Re: Richest 10% = Us = Planet Killers

Unread postby C8 » Fri 04 Dec 2015, 19:35:41

dohboi wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/environment/global-warming/Worlds-richest-10-produce-50-of-CO2-Report/articleshow/50020466.cms

World's richest 10% produce 50% of CO2

the poorest half-most threatened by droughts and super storms linked to climate change–contribute a mere 10%


We have met the enemy...


That same 10%......

invents amazing wonder drugs that save millions of lives

invents neat technologies that make all of life so much more enjoyable such as air conditioning, cell phones, the
internet, transatlantic flight

creates unparalleled works of art, stunning graphics, mesmerizing music, incredible cinema

creates world class universities and funnels millions into basic science research

gives millions to help those poor nations on a daily basis and during emergencies and natural disasters



that same poor poor 90%, on the other hand.....

keeps women in a state of subjugation, allows rape at will

attacks those who disagree with primitive religious beliefs- kills albinos because they are "witches"

engages in mass corruption, mob style drug running, cartels, holy war- you name it

scoffs at education and revels in prejudice

AND

wants to live a life of luxury just like westerners




Sooooooooooo glad i don't hate our society and western culture like you do Dohboi- so glad I don't hate myself like you do- its a definition of mental illness really- liberal self hate

Why don't you move to a more "virtuous" poor nation?

Can't stand hating hypocrites
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Re: Richest 10% = Us = Planet Killers

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 04 Dec 2015, 19:44:08

My favorite imponderable is this......

What is the "right" human population for Earth?

Which of course begs the question......

What is humanities purpose?

Somehow I don't get the feeling that the greatest expression of humanity is being expressed in the slums of Rio or Mumbai.

I never understand why folks are just eternally driven to do things which drive up the population and drive down the quality of life. Meaningful life requires a certain degree of excess, a cushion against the dark. Isn't it best to have a reasonable number of people who can live a reasonable life, sustainably? :cry:
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Re: Richest 10% = Us = Planet Killers

Unread postby AgentR11 » Fri 04 Dec 2015, 19:48:30

Newfie wrote:What is humanities purpose?


From a Gaea centrist view.... we do have a purpose, and it is very simple. To dig up and return all the carbon to the atmosphere, and then die horribly.
Yes we are, as we are,
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Re: Richest 10% = Us = Planet Killers

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 04 Dec 2015, 20:04:52

that 10% have drugs that are contributing to premature sickness and death of millions of users.
while declaring illegal a substance marijuana/hemp that is universally recognized as a wonder plant that can even stop cancer.
utilize technologies and products that are destroying the Earth
do not have a monopoly on artistic creativity.
have helped create a extremely unjust and unequal world whereby 1 billion people do not get enough to eat, and 1 billion earn 1 dollar per day and 3 billion 2 dollars per day
that 90% have traditional societies that are characterized by close knit extended families who help each other in contrast to the atomized individualist materialistic Western lifestyle that scoffs at any collective responsibility and whereby divorce rates are at about 50%
have a brutal regime of the powerful/rich countries that have irresistible power and dictate a and rule over a profoundly unjust and unequal world and in fact intervene and interfere with countries around the world to insure compliant governments and the rule of money
That same 10% engages in mass corruption in the financial and political system , mob style drug running, horribly greedy and corrupt banking cartels, a draconian capitalist system that exploits and uses people and resources in a frightfully greedy and insatiable way.
Gives us the illusion of choice and education only to be taught what "we should" learn and not question to basic myths, ethos and tenents of modern civilization and modern economic capitalism
That same 90% want to live a life with dignity and want "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" Oh and yes guess they do want to live like us, too bad they probably never will not because they are any less deserving but simply because they were born in a poor country and do not have MONEY.
So glad I can see beyond the myths of my country and see all humans as the same and thus deserving of the same and that I do not hate myself or anyone else. True hypocrites are those who deny to themselves the truth and prefer to live in their convenient self absorbed and self made reality
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Re: Richest 10% = Us = Planet Killers

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 04 Dec 2015, 21:09:50

AgentR11 wrote:
Newfie wrote:What is humanities purpose?


From a Gaea centrist view.... we do have a purpose, and it is very simple. To dig up and return all the carbon to the atmosphere, and then die horribly.


I have said it differently but still very similar. If you look at our track record you could make an argument that we evolved to increase entropy, to get at carbon (and uranium?) stores that otherwise would be very stable.

Seagypse has talked about humanity saving Earth form "carbon death."

So yeah, I totally get that concept.
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