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Reuters: Beijing’s covert radio network in USA

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Re: Reuters: Beijing’s covert radio network in USA

Unread postby kanon » Tue 03 Nov 2015, 22:08:59

Tanada wrote:The idea that the Chinese are running some sort of secret subversive propaganda network is silly on the face of it. China has some of the brightest humans on the planet running their country, they have no need for hamfisted propaganda like the Voice of America that we used to broadcast into the USSR from the 1950's to the 1990's.

Running a propaganda network is an inherent obsession of all governments. I promise you, any government with the means will run a propaganda network if for no other reason than it gives the hacks something to do. Secondly, China has global interests and they see how countries like Israel and Saudia Arabia are able to influence U.S. policy, so it is a "no brainer" strategy to try and cultivate favorable public beliefs and maybe even buy a few R's and D's. From the story it seems the "brightest humans on the planet" were not running this particular operation.
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Re: Reuters: Beijing’s covert radio network in USA

Unread postby Sixstrings » Tue 03 Nov 2015, 23:21:45

Let me give you all an example, of how foreign propaganda can affect us.

I was looking at drudgereport earlier.. and it had a headline linked, "Migrant crisis pushing Germany towards ‘anarchy and civil war."

And I think wow that's dramatic let me have a look at that.. and then I see it's a RT story:

Migrant crisis pushing Germany towards ‘anarchy and civil war’
https://www.rt.com/op-edge/320651-germany-refugees-crisis-bavaria/


And then I thought, why the heck did Drudge feature and link a RT story? Drudgereport is actually widely viewed, especially conservatives, and widely seen in Washington with pols and staffers.

Now, thing about RT is, that is straight up Russian government propaganda and anything they ever say about the West is always spinning things like it's so horribly screwed up and so bad. RT's intent isn't reporting the news, it's whatever agenda Russia has.. it could be just straight Tokyo Rose stuff, and just to dispirit westerners and make them question everything (like democracy, and all our values), or sow divisions between allies, or kick sand in the air and obfuscate and confuse things whenever there's an issue about Russia in the world.

So, I'm just someone that knows that, about RT.

But most people just looking at drudgreport, maybe don't know that.

And most people just listening to an American accent on the radio giving the news, they'd have no way of knowing it's really a studio in Beijing.

I didn't even bother reading the RT article because I already know that's state propaganda and not a primary source to be using. But it was featured on drudge, so that means it got a lot of clicks and it had influence.

So you see, this stuff could just happen over time.. that RT becomes a regular brand, and news source, and it just spreads out and cascades, changing views on things, and then suddenly an "RT" or "china radio" actually has quite a bit of power and influence. Which Moscow and Beijing would use, for what they want to -- and it's not just a business to report news.

So anyhow -- the internet is one thing, maybe channels on cable tv is one thing, but an old fashioned broadcast tower in Topeka Kansas or wherever is another thing entirely.

There are reasons why we have the laws that we do and government takes a look at individual cases (or they're supposed to) when foreign governments and companies want to buy something here.

At one time, Dubai wanted to buy most of our ports. That thing almost went through and then someone said "hey wait a second maybe we shouldn't sell all our port authorities to the middle east, maybe that's not such a bright idea."

And then recently, there was that deal with Bill Clinton and the Russians and that Canadian company that then sold out to Russia -- and took a large chunk of American uranium, with it.

And then the Russians bought Pabst beer. Ok that's fine, no harm there with a beer company, but maybe the uranium thing should not have been approved, ya think?

Etc., etc.
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Re: Reuters: Beijing’s covert radio network in USA

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Wed 04 Nov 2015, 00:32:43

Did you read the article, or just see RT & decide to crap on like that? It quotes government sources with names inside Germany speaking quite rationally about how regional government is feeling about national government foisting large numbers of immigrants on them. Anarchy- thousands of undocumented arrivals a day, Civil war- regions rebelling against national directives, risking breakup of the nation. Your silly over the top rant is completely unwarranted.
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Re: Reuters: Beijing’s covert radio network in USA

Unread postby AgentR11 » Wed 04 Nov 2015, 01:01:34

To be fair, there are more than a few people, in Germany, that think the migrant crisis is doing precisely what RT claims in the title. Its not an off the wall piece of agitprop. The volume of the migrants in Germany is too high to assimilate, and they are going to have to make some very unpleasant choices, pretty soon I think.

For the Chinese effort, even if they are violating the law currently (which I don't think they are); the solution will be relatively simple, a 100% US citizen owned company will buy some radio leases, pull content from the PRC in Mandarin, and broadcast. That's the whole point of privately owned corporations; if they screw up; you delete them, and they start over.

You aren't going to be able to prevent PRC produced programming from being aired in the US, unless you intend to bankroll a bunch of high quality Mandarin programming yourself; and seeing as how the PRC owns all the existing good stuff, you'll essentially be needing to recreate holywood, from scratch. Good luck not going bankrupt. Meanwhile, some Mandarin speaking US citizen with trade contacts in Beijing will setup a corporation, buy some radio leases and do in one hour the same result that will take you years.

These are CHINESE LANGUAGE programming being aired. Most likely, exclusively Mandarin, and definitely PRC viewpoint. Its not aimed at Bob from Bobville; its aimed at mainland Chinese, living in the US. Judging from CCTV content, I'd also say the content is much less political than regular US media, more a scattershot of world events, a bit of ham handed mention of political figures activities, "Bob the Mayor was on X street and said "hi"... next story... With the notable exceptions of some boilerplate issues like, "Japan should apologize" (even though we won't accept any possible combination of Japanese words for an apology), and the US is a Bully that throws tantrums periodically, but is otherwise a good place to do business, and odd things like "it matters very much where we draw the line between India and China in this mountain pass... even though it is desolate wasteland that makes Mars look delightful." But mostly its stuff like, "It rained in Bobville, and a bunch of cars got flooded", or "crops here did good, crops there did bad."

It is PRC viewpoint, and you can find a reason to be offended if you try, but the chance of you producing viable, Mandarin programming to air in the US, against the backdrop of the massive amount of off the shelf content a competitor can buy from the PRC, is basically zilch.

Or maybe, you're really saying that China should have no barriers to US content being purchased and presented in China, but the US should have impossible barriers to Chinese content being purchased and presented in the US???? That wouldn't be very free market of you.
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Re: Reuters: Beijing’s covert radio network in USA

Unread postby Sixstrings » Wed 04 Nov 2015, 13:37:28

SeaGypsy wrote:Did you read the article, or just see RT & decide to crap on like that? It quotes government sources with names inside Germany speaking quite rationally about how regional government is feeling about national government foisting large numbers of immigrants on them. Anarchy- thousands of undocumented arrivals a day, Civil war- regions rebelling against national directives, risking breakup of the nation. Your silly over the top rant is completely unwarranted.


I seriously doubt Germany is actually, in fact, "on the brink of civil war" and there's "anarchy" all over the place.

It's a bit concerning if RT becomes an accepted brand and that Matt Drudge features an RT story with his big bold headline and so many people look at the Drudgereport, it just surprised me that he'd link RT. Matt Drudge knows better.

Even if someone IS so much against immigration, you don't go linking Russian propaganda about it to make your case.

Anyhow RT isn't the end of the world. :lol: I have a look at it sometimes -- it's propaganda, if you want to see a page with everything that's so horrible about America and the West then have a look at RT. That's useful to a point, *as long as the reader knows it's propaganda and they have that in mind and realize there's a massive bent to it and never the whole story but rather kernels of truth (which is what makes good propaganda)*.

And then, RT will often have stories about how great new Russian military gear is, and just general military news in Russia and to be fair they also have positive stories about Russia and then humorous things. What you'll never see though, ever, is anything bad about Putin or problems in their politics or problems in Russia. So that's why it's propaganda. When they don't really fairly present all the news.

So RT is not the end of the world, but as an American in my local community, I'm sorry if it offends anyone but no I would not support FCC exemptions if RT wanted to be on local broadcast towers in my county.

And I'm not going to write a letter to my congressman either, asking him to make an exemption for China Radio to be broadcasting in my county -- unlike RT, this China radio apparently never says who they are. It's just Americans with an American accent, in a Beijing studio, I guess.

I don't want to go off into paranoid land but look SG it's just weird, ok? It's just weird, if any of my local stations just started broadcasting Beijing over my local county airwaves, I just think it's odd and something we didn't use to have in this country and it's just not something I would support.

The BIGGEST problem about it is that from these articles, it appears that the presenters have an American accent and are Americans but I guess some of it is done in Beijing and it's the communist state radio that has editorial control *but nobody is informed of this* so maybe someone in Kansas doesn't even know that the radio signal is from Beijing.

Listeners should at lest be informed, I think.

To get you to understand this SG, as an analogy, imagine if Americans did this in Russia.

Imagine if some trucker in Siberia turns his radio on after a hard day's work, and he here's a Russian on there and it sounds like somebody from Russia, but maybe it's really from a studio in Washington DC run by the Voice of America and they've leased all the time on a radio station in that Siberian town -- and then they never identify that the broadcast is from America.

Wouldn't that be kind of shady, and not right? To not even identify as being Voice of America? If Russians complained about it, wouldn't they have an honest point, that that's not right?

By the way, if IT IS JUST CHINESE PEOPLE that have views and maybe they are nationalist but still they're just individual people AND IF IT'S NOT straight from the communist party headquarters, then ok.

That would be fine to have in the US, some Chinese views -- even if they are nationalist and pro government -- but then the station should have Chinese dissidents on there too and have a discussion and both sides to the story and then people can learn some things.

But if it's not just people just having these views on their own, and it's a communist party operation, then that's another thing entirely.

So China should just do this thing differently, is all. But they still can't own radio stations, that's against our law.

But they could get a cable tv channel or a radio *show* or network and it would be okay if they were OPEN about it and call it China Radio.

And then they should just do things differently, now that they are in America, and have dissidents on there too and opposing views. And this would be good for China, and FAR more effective at getting their pro communist party / government view out there, and at the same time would be a healthy experiment for the Chinese government -- an experiment in actually allowing dissenting opinions.

China's actually doing a lot of things in the US right now.

I saw a piece on CNN recently about a Chinese company that bought a factory in North Carolina.

The Chinese foreman (a woman, actually) said the Americans show up late and want more time off work so that's an adjustment and they're trying to adjust to how Americans are. :lol:

We gotta watch this stuff guys -- China could be our bossman in the future. Let's not lose our country. It's not the end of the world, just something that has to be watched, that's all.

And Chinese aren't bad people they're just people, and they probably run a good factory in North Carolina and she didn't seem like an awful boss but yet this really is America -- our labor standards are harsher than in Europe but we do have better conditions than China does, and China has to understand and accept our differences from them.
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Re: Reuters: Beijing’s covert radio network in USA

Unread postby Sixstrings » Wed 04 Nov 2015, 13:56:04

I looked on youtube to try to find that CNN report I saw, I remember that, the foreman said how Americans are late more often than Chinese workers and how Americans want more time off work etc. and how that's an adjustment for this Chinese company now that it's got a factory in America. In fairness, she did say they're trying to adjust to American differences.

I couldn't find the CNN report but I did see this, from a group called "China in America." It's a slick promotion video -- SO WHO PRODUCED it? Who is this group? Any Chinese government connections?

But I'll link it, I don't know who's behind it but I'll link it, so see I'm objective:

When China met Carolina

Through the eyes of the ordinary people of North and South Carolina this short film discovers the unique China-America relationship. With insight from those who have been touched by investment from China ‘When China Met Carolina’ is a story of friendship, of shared work ethics, of respect and of the achievements grown from the US and China working together. A film that illustrates two nations that have more to unite than divide them, creating hope for a better tomorrow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfgsoETPe-I


The bottom line is -- IT'S CHINA THAT HAS TO CHANGE, the West accepts that it's gradual and slow change but we've got to be CLEAR that it's THEM that's gotta change. It's not DEMOCRACY that's gonna go away, but rather authoritarianism.

So that's what is at stake, as long as the arc is toward democracy and rights in China and they know that then okay -- but it can never be America that gives up and loses what it means, to be America.

Look guys, we could all write page after page of good things about China but the fact still remains that it's not right how they do some things over there, and the oppression etc. and lack of democracy.

They still have a communist party in charge. We don't really have to change THEM, they can have their differences, but the important thing is that while in AMERICA they adjust to how things are here. So that means, if they've got a "China Radio" here, then they have to adjust to how America is and that both sides are presented on things and the China Radio in America should give both sides to stories and report on Hong Kong and Tibet etc. and allow dissidents on the air too.

It's China that should change, it can't be us that changes to suit China -- that's not what our founding fathers set this country up for, guys.
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Re: Reuters: Beijing’s covert radio network in USA

Unread postby AgentR11 » Wed 04 Nov 2015, 14:09:55

OMG Six. The Chinese are not taking over. The Russians aren't taking over. They mostly would like us to stop trying to wreck and break up their countries.

The stations in question are open about it their affiliations and purpose. They are trying to do it the way we do it here; holding companies, purchasing content from 3rd party provider, niche audience, etc. If they've botched the structure of it this time; they'll dissolve the companies and start over, just like any other good capitalist would do. May have to pay some fines to the FCC if they've violated the regulatory structure; which I'm not really convinced they have.

You are even suggesting controlling the content of privately owned stations?? That's bs, and absolutely unamerican. Censorship of political speech is what the bad guys do.

And of course, this takes the cake, you wrote: ", some Chinese views -- even if they are nationalist and pro government --" In Chinese conversation, "nationalist" refers to the folks who lost the civil war and retreated to Taiwan. You can't be "nationalist" and "pro-government(Beijing)"; you can be one or the other.

If you don't even know that much about China, why are you even daring to rant about them? You don't know enough about them to write an opening sentence, much less tell them what they should or should not be doing.
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Re: Reuters: Beijing’s covert radio network in USA

Unread postby Sixstrings » Wed 04 Nov 2015, 14:25:03

pstarr wrote:Does this mean they are stealing my internet shopping habits? I confess. I confess. I bought a non-apple approved device.


Holy sh*t guys.. I'm watching this China in America Chamber of commerce video it's a hoot..

A Southerner saying "things were so hard, and Jimmy Lee came along and gave me a job."

and

"I didn't know how it was gonna be to have a Chinese bossman, but it's been alright."

Jesus. What has happened to our country. It's changing so fast.

Here's the irony -- these jobs are TEMPORARY anyway. China just built a big all robot factory in China. They're using our labor a little bit for now, but that'll go to robots too.

Who will be left standing at the end of it? Who will be the capitalist class? Chinese in China?

The problem I have with all this is they treat the dalai lama so horribly, and if I'm not mistaken don't they have some lamas under house arrest? And when the dalai lama passes away, China may try to put up a communist party dalai lama. For DECADES China has told our presidents they can't meet the dailai lama.

And then Hong Kong.. and the people there that just want a democratic vote for mayor, THIS WAS PROMISED to them.. they used to be BRITISH CITIZENS and used to have democracy and the whole agreement was China would give them the vote after x number of years, then China renigged on it.

They're sort of small issues, to be honest, like maybe you can just look the other way and march forward into the future with China..

Yet it still bothers me, it's like we're giving our values up. Democracy. A simple right to vote for your town's mayor.

It's a big thing if these things die out in the world -- why can't China just bend a little bit, so people can feel more comfortable about Chinese leadership in the world?

Or I guess folk could just vote Donald Trump, he flat out wants to "take all the jobs back from China and be tough with China and make America Great again" -- not just have a "chinese bossman." :lol:

(I sound like such a nativist paranoid, honestly everything is wonderful about China the only problem and sticking point is it is in fact still a communist party in charge and we honestly cannot change how America is and go more toward that model, maybe authoritarian government and "social credit reports" and then maybe China oppresses people in America but they're so powerful by that point and own so much here that nobody can say anything.

China is a great country, but it is in fact a different and separate country and it would be a different story if it were the British or Germans or Japanese or Canadians buying so much here.

We do need to be thinking about how to make AMERICA great again and we have to protect our Constitution and the views of our founding fathers. Jefferson. Washington. Benjamin Franklin. Our very core basic core English-world values that started in england so long ago with things like the magna carta.

China is a different place, it has a communist party in charge, you have to admit that and that we just have to watch things with China, that's all I'm sayin'.

I linked a pro China in America video, now here's a video that says "make no mistake, China is a long term enemy of the US:"

China and the U.S. Are Long-term Enemies
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kd-1LymXXX0


It's a serious intelligence community thinktank debate.
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Re: Reuters: Beijing’s covert radio network in USA

Unread postby Sixstrings » Wed 04 Nov 2015, 14:40:04

AgentR11 wrote:If you don't even know that much about China, why are you even daring to rant about them? You don't know enough about them to write an opening sentence, much less tell them what they should or should not be doing.


When I say nationalist, I just mean there is rising nationalist "we're gonna lead in the world" sentiment and they're trying to claim the south china sea and china is NOT the only nation in the Pacific, Agent.

Japan is also a large Asian country that's a democracy just like we are and honestly I'd rather have the Japanese buying us out because at least they don't have all this communist party stuff going on and oppression like China does.

Japan has none of that.

Your party's frontrunner has a LOT of concerns about China.

Your party's official position is that China is a long term adversary of our country. Republicans, and moreover Obama, have shifted almost the entire US Navy out to the Pacific -- and you're reading Xinhua, Agent?

I know this thing is uncomfortable. USA has competition in the world now, and a long term adversary, and nobody wants that but China's on the rise and that is what it is.

We need to be looking out for our country, that Washington and Paul Revere and Ben Franlkin and Jefferson and the Puritans and quakers founded, on enlightenment values and democracy and also freedom of religion.

Agent -- it's a lengthy video but if you have time some time, maybe have a listen to the debate video I just linked.

My position -- we can't just lay down to China and follow Beijing into the future, I'm sorry. We can have business with the chinese government, we can engage with them, but we can never throw democracy and our values under the bus, nor our democratic allies in the Pacific like Japan and South Korea and Australia.

If we just lay down, China will own everything and be everybody's bossman and hegemon even over America -- IF we just lay down to it.

We need to keep the pressure up, keep our values, talk about Hong Kong etc. and when crazy things come out like "the social credit score" an American ought to say "wow that's crazy" not "oh that's a neat idea."
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Re: Reuters: Beijing’s covert radio network in USA

Unread postby Sixstrings » Wed 04 Nov 2015, 14:50:41

pstarr wrote:Six, are you in the employ of Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty? If so tell your bosses or the head guy or something that you guys need to bone up on current events. It's not the 1960's. Sorry :cry:


Don't you even listen to President Obama? And Hillary Clinton? They talk about China a fair amount too, it's not just Donald Trump.

Are you not aware of the asia pivot, and that Obama moved almost the entire navy out to the pacific?

America has a choice -- we can stay close with the democracies of the world, an alliance of democracies, or we can just follow China and accept Chinese leadership abroad and here in America in the future.

AGENT -- *I don't mind China being bossman* if they were at least a democracy how Japan is.

It's our values that actually matter even more than just "America." If some other place wants to replace us and be our boss then I'm okay with it if they share our values. Just as we replaced the British empire.

If China wants to be hegemon in the world it's actually okay with me, let them buy all the factories in America, let them lead on everything on down to infrastructure in the USA and maybe build us some bullet trains -- IF ONLY they were "american" in spirit, and that means democracy Agent and rights, then it would be okay.

You think this stuff is 1960s and doesn't matter. I'm sorry I disagree -- democracy, rights, it means everything.

Or I don't know, let's all just read Xinhua and be pro Beijing, whatever. Build me a bullet train to ride, maybe I won't complain about it then. :lol:
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Re: Reuters: Beijing’s covert radio network in USA

Unread postby Sixstrings » Wed 04 Nov 2015, 15:05:57

US investigating covert Chinese radio broadcast network based in California

The report revealed that this alleged violation is larger than just one company. It showed that CRI is the majority shareholder behind broadcasts in a number of cities in the U.S., including Washington, Philadelphia, Boston, Houston and San Francisco, and around the world in 14 countries.
http://www.scpr.org/news/2015/11/03/55440/us-investigating-covert-chinese-radio-broadcast-ne/


I'll get off the China topic. I'm just saying, I'm just not comfortable with it. I'd rather we be doing more to "make america great again" rather than just marching behind Beijing into the future.

If someone else has to take over and buy us out, I'd honestly rather it be the Japanese.

I like Chinese people, and I know a lot more about Japanese culture and I like Japanese people too -- and the biggest difference is that Japan is a democracy that doesn't have any of these things going on that China does, so if someone has to buy us out I'd rather it have been Japan. (the way Japan is now, not imperial Japan :lol:). We really did convert these asian nations to the American way -- Japan, South Korea, America made them what they are now.

And they really are democratic, and have human rights and share our values, THAT was supposed to be the legacy of the cold war, that our side won and that our side -- freedom -- really is the best thing for humanity. It's what our founding fathers thought, too.

We did change South Korea and Japan into our image and those are great places that do the right things but we failed, with China. That one was supposed to happen just with engagement and trade but it didn't really happen and what happened instead was an authoritarian communist party managed capitalism hybrid. I'm not saying it's evil, but it's not American either.

Japan has democracy and freedom, I'd be more comfortable if it were them becoming hegemon -- and ideally, we really should just get on the ball and just "make america great again."
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Re: Reuters: Beijing’s covert radio network in USA

Unread postby Subjectivist » Wed 04 Nov 2015, 15:08:50

All jobs are temporary, if you don't believe me go ask your boss.
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Re: Reuters: Beijing’s covert radio network in USA

Unread postby Sixstrings » Wed 04 Nov 2015, 15:31:03

I'm fighting a losing battle on this forum, I know it.

The Moscow and Beijing narratives have the far left on the hook, AND the libertarian right.

Ron Paul Liberty report, it may as well be Xinhua or "China Radio:"

Are We Looking For A Fight In The South China Sea?

Yesterday a US Naval destroyer sailed within 12 miles of an island in the South China Sea newly built and claimed by China. The Chinese claimed a 12 mile exclusion zone and have complained over the US "violation." Is the US military "keeping the sea lanes open," as the US government claims, or is it looking for another fight halfway across the earth?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KudfRyn3ZbA


Ron Paul says it's "arrogant" when Obama's defense sec Ash Carter says "we will fly and sail anywhere we want to."

But what Carter meant was just that these are *international waters* and it is an issue of freedom of navigation for American flagged ships in international waters. And our allies too, such as Japan.

Let me go ahead and just blast through all the propaganda and give you the bottom line:

The USA has allied nations, in the Pacific. These are democracies with good people in them and they are nice places that don't have human rights abuses in them. Japan, South Korea. These are our friends and allies, and together being allied is what keeps us all safer than if we were alone and that's the bottom line about it.

So if you guys want to just not have any allies, then that's a separate debate.

As it stands, we are just sticking with Japan and South Korea and Phillipines and other places in the Pacific and actually we mostly follow their lead on concerns about China claiming open waters.

The allied democracies will stand together.

We can engage with china, they can set up factories in north carolina, they can even build us a bullet train if they want to but what they can't do is ever tell an american flagged ship it can't sail in a patch of open seas international waters.

We can keep doing business with China, but China is our *competitor* overall and we need to realize that and be looking out for our country here at home and make it strong and build it up and get our sh*t together again and open our own factories and build our own bullet trains, and do our own mars mission and science and not leave this century just to the Chinese.

edit: just to walk it back a bit, I do have an optimistic view for the future. I still think China will be the one that changes in the end, not the other way around. Surely the arc has to be toward freedom and democracy and rights?

We will have competition and maybe a little cold war but actually China isn't as aggressive and risk-taking and rocking the boat so hard as Russia does at times, so that's a good thing about Beijing. There will never be war or anything close to fear of that, with China.

What we're gonna have to watch out for is actually these subtle cultural things, how things are done in China versus the West -- and we just have to keep a distinction about that, and not take on Chinese government norms and standards. Example: actually Europe and UK have stricter cyber privacy laws than we do in the US. So that's a way that UK and Europe choose to be different from us and it's better, and they have the right, they shouldn't have to take on all US norms and we shouldn't have to take on Chinese norms.

We just have to watch out for being swamped by China, that's all I'm sayin'.

The way they handle dissent and internet companies and censorship is a very different philosophy than ours, and then eco standards, labor standards, etc.

It just has to be watched that's all I'm sayin', things have to be kept fair and square between both sides, equal treatment for American business in china as we treat them here, etc.
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Re: Reuters: Beijing’s covert radio network in USA

Unread postby AgentR11 » Wed 04 Nov 2015, 16:05:16

Are We Looking For A Fight In The South China Sea?


Yes, we are. At the moment, for just maybe another year or so; China and Russia don't have a mutual defense clause to their relationship. This is our last opportunity to go to war with China, pick them off, break them; and then work on Russia. I'm hoping they won't bite, and will just ignore the USN "tresspasses", but I'll let you in on a little secret too..

Yesterday a US Naval destroyer sailed within 12 miles of an island in the South China Sea newly built and claimed by China. The Chinese claimed a 12 mile exclusion zone and have complained over the US "violation." Is the US military "keeping the sea lanes open," as the US government claims, or is it looking for another fight halfway across the earth?


The "island" they went traipsing around, can *NEVER* have a 12 mile zone, no matter who owns it, no matter how big they make that platform. We cheated, produced a news story, and no one in the press called us on it. We didn't violate China's sovereignty, because there is no territorial water claim that can be made for the particular artificial platform that we sailed near; it can have a 500 m safety zone, and that is it. Everyone in the US Navy knows that. Everyone in the PLAN knows that. Every politician above dog catcher knows that. Obama made a promise to challenge Beijing, and then didn't; and then allowed everyone's loud screaching to drag the press along so that the claim of challenge seemed legit. But you know who also knows there was no challenge? The Phillipeans, Korea, & Japan.

If we had wanted to challenge China, for real, we would have sailed near Fiery Cross. And I'll be blunt. We could probably get away with one sail-by for Fiery Cross; but I guarantee, US ships will be on the bottom of the ocean, and we'll be in WW III for real, if we do it twice, and if we wait long enough to do such an unwise thing, it'll be NATO vs RussoChina, with full exchange of nuclear weapons being inevitable because of NATO's technological superiority. And as a result, industrial civilization will die.
Yes we are, as we are,
And so shall we remain,
Until the end.
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Re: Reuters: Beijing’s covert radio network in USA

Unread postby Sixstrings » Wed 04 Nov 2015, 19:33:22

I never look at Voice of America but got curious, here's a couple China news items.

Firstly, sec def Ash Carter and Malaysian secretary of defense plan to board the USS Teddy Roosevelt aircraft carrier and sail through the south china sea:

US, Malaysian Defense Chiefs to Sail S. China Sea

A U.S. defense official says Defense Secretary Ash Carter and his Malaysian counterpart, Hishammuddin Hussein, will board a U.S. warship sailing in the South China Sea Thursday amid diplomatic tensions over China's maritime expansion in the region.

The two will board the U.S. aircraft carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt as it sails off the coast of Malaysia.


The brief cruise by Carter and Hussein will take place days after a U.S. guided missile destroyer sailed within 22 kilometers of the Subi Reef in the Spratly Island archipelago.

...

Dispute overshadows ASEAN

"I had no expectation that everyone would agree on the South China Sea or any other issue," Carter told reporters. "That's the reason for this forum is to discuss these issues, so I had no expectation with the agreement there. With respect to the joint statement, that is something that ASEAN members discuss. Obviously they weren't able to reach consensus, and that reflects I think the level of concern that was reflected in the conversation about activities in the South China Sea."

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China's Defense Ministry said it regretted a joint declaration was not issued, and accused "certain countries" outside of Southeast Asia of being responsible for the cancellation of a statement.

The U.S. has called on China to stop building in the South China Sea, characterizing the activity as destabilizing for the region. Chinese officials have defended the construction as a peaceful effort meant instead to aid shipping through the disputed waterway.
http://www.voanews.com/content/south-china-sea-dispute-sinks-asean-joint-statement/3036111.html


USS Theodore Roosevelt, "the Big Stick:"

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Voice of America also reporting on protests in Vietnam, against Xi Jinping's visit:

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Anti-China Protests Precede Xi Visit to Vietnam

Anti-China protesters have taken to the streets in Vietnam to oppose an upcoming visit by Chinese President Xi Jinping.

The protesters were seen carrying banners that read, “Xi Jinping, give back the Spratlys and Paracels to Vietnam!” or “the Spratlys and Paracels belong to Vietnam.”

Videos posted online show dozens of people shouting anti-China slogans and walking peacefully in the streets of both the capital Hanoi and the southern commercial hub of Ho Chi Minh City.

...

Social activist Nguyen Van Phuong said he joined the rally in central Hanoi because of the China's aggressive moves in the South China Sea.

“[Xi] is head of the state that takes away islands [in the South China Sea], and his force beats up Vietnamese fishermen. He has no good intentions with Vietnam. Therefore, we do not want to welcome him here. We, the people, want to show him that," he said.

The Chinese president is scheduled to arrive Thursday in Vietnam for a two-day official visit.

According to official media reports, Xi will hold talks with senior Vietnamese officials and plans to deliver a speech before Vietnam’s legislature. It is unclear if he will mention the maritime territorial dispute over the South China Sea.

Observers say the address shows the importance that Vietnam attaches to its ties with the giant northern neighbor, and its willingness to repair the relations that have soured over the maritime disputes.

Calls for boycott

Tran Cong Truc, former head of Vietnam’s border affairs committee, said there are widespread calls to boycott Xi’s visit on social media in Vietnam, and he sympathizes with that sentiment.

“But to protect Vietnam’s rights and interest [over the South China Sea], even though it is tough, Vietnam needs to make full use of all chances to sit down and have talk with Chinese counterpart to find a peaceful solution to the dispute," Truc said.
http://www.voanews.com/content/anti-china-protests-precede-xi-visit-to-vietnam/3036826.html


There's also news out now that a Chinese submarine "stalked" the USS Ronald Reagan carrier off Japan last month:

Chinese Submarine Stalked U.S. Aircraft Carrier

The incident occurred as the Reagan sailed from its home port to the Sea of Japan around the southern end of Japan.

Days later, in the Sea of Japan, the Reagan was targeted for a close flyby by two Russian Tu-142 bombers that flew within a mile of the ship at an altitude of 500 feet. U.S. Navy jets were scrambled to escort the bombers away from the carrier group.

The submarine encounter also occurred days before the USS Lassen, a guided missile destroyer, carried out a freedom of navigation operation in the South China Sea.
http://freebeacon.com/national-security/chinese-submarine-stalked-us-aircraft-carrier/
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Re: Reuters: Beijing’s covert radio network in USA

Unread postby AgentR11 » Wed 04 Nov 2015, 20:05:59

Sixstrings wrote:Chinese Submarine Stalked U.S. Aircraft Carrier
The incident occurred as the Reagan sailed from its home port to the Sea of Japan around the southern end of Japan.

Days later, in the Sea of Japan, the Reagan was targeted for a close flyby by two Russian Tu-142 bombers that flew within a mile of the ship at an altitude of 500 feet. U.S. Navy jets were scrambled to escort the bombers away from the carrier group.

The submarine encounter also occurred days before the USS Lassen, a guided missile destroyer, carried out a freedom of navigation operation in the South China Sea.


First for the twerps: Yes, the US would "win" any war it fought with China, what follows isn't about win/loss, its about cost vs gain.

Glad you brought this up, because its a good moment for some geographic education. The problem we have over there, is that anywhere we would operate, is also within range of weapons that are most certainly sufficient to score real kills on a carrier battle group. The point of a battlegroup like that, is to deny the enemy access to the capital ship in the middle; but when you have to drive the "middle" right into the cross hairs of the enemy, you defeat the purpose. This is why that Russian bomber could get within a mile, and an instant-kill of that carrier. Heck, it could probably detonate a nuke onboard at that range and kill the carrier. And when that capital ship costs billions of dollars, and takes years to replace, the enemy can afford to fire a *LOT* of high dollar weapons at it, and still have the cost ratio be amazing.

My point is simply this, much like the Russian problem, we are edging these countries into a position where failure to fight produces the same effective defeat as fighting, while leaving the one attacking them unharmed in any way. When they balance the equation, the more we push in this manner, the less reason there is for them not to kill tens of thousands of American sailors and put billions of dollars of US Navy ships on the bottom of the ocean. If you put your enemy in a position where they lose either way, they will attempt to maximize your cost.

Our strategic planners have been phoning it from the beach; time they put their butts in a chair and put 'serious' on their faces.

We are picking a fight we could "win", but in the process of "winning", we get no prize, probably hundreds of billions of dollars of cost, and a disrupted supply chain for most of the consumer electronics in existence. Even those islands aren't much of a prize; without constant refill dredging, they'll be gone in a few years; none of the other claimants would even think about spending those kind of resources that far out. Its a lose/lose of massive proportion.

OTOH, I do have a little hope, apparently we're avoiding Fiery Cross like the plague. Maybe that's the behind the scenes agreement, US runs their drill by the island with no territorial waters, China screams bloodly murder, and everyone, otherwise, proceeds about their day unmolested.
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