Resource Wars: Water

[kiwichick]

kmann

water flows downhill
if you then make the water downhill faster and let it flow through turbines you create hydropower
then use the power to pump the water back to the surface (possibly supplemented by solar)

the sheer scale of the problems we face will mean moving to a wartime-like organised economy if we want to survive
as some have already stated ,our problems today will make WW2 look like a sunday picnic

[TheDude]

kiwi - sounds quite interesting. This sounds like the right track to be on:

CETO contains no oils, lubricants or offshore electrical components - it is built from components with a known sub-sea life of over 30 years.

Hope they can deliver in meaningful volumes. I see they're still in the testing stage:

* 2007 - 2008CETO II
o Commercial design development commences
o Validation of computational models through in-sea trials
o Finalisation of CETO design development and testing
o Pre-commercial prototype array operating at Fremantle

* 2009 - 2011CETO III
o First commercial site selection and approvals
o Commencement of site works
o CETO manufacturing & deployment
o Commissioning and operation of commercial operation
o Production and sales of zero-emission power and desalinated water

Timely thread, I'm finishing up When the Rivers Run Dry:

The one-word review of Pearce's book is: Terrifying. Whether he's writing about the Indian peasant farmers who draw from poisoned wells every day, the oblivious Arizonans who run fountains in the desert, or the apocalyptic moonscape that is the Aral Sea (once a thriving fishery, now a toxic cesspool), Pearce manages to convey the immense wreckage human activity is making of our lifeblood. No, not oil. The other precious fluid.

I think a lot of people have a hard time imagining that human activity really can have such a profound effect, but this book should be an antidote to that. We've all probably met someone who refused to believe that anthropogenic CO2 could really be responsible for so many problems. This book manages to convey clearly and starkly the effects we've had on rivers and lakes all over the world.

What does the Great Lakes Compact mean for water conservation? : The Bay View Compass. Does Arizona qualify for any "exceptions"? Apparently not, only for states that have land within the regions, although the doc does have this: “We don’t have to face the difficult choices that places like Arizona, Colorado, and California have to face.”

On another note I see that the springs on the mountains to my north are shown on Google Maps when you use Terrain view. And we have 2 Hess Creeks. Haven't gotten an answer to that mystery - even from a water dept. employee.

[threadbear]

Peak water, peak oil, very similar--Peter Gleick



http://newsecuritybeat.blogspot.com/200 ... water.html

[TheDude]

For a bit more in-depth video there's A World Without Water, which is 1 hour 16 minutes.

Actually aquifers can be renewed, there are the qanats of the Middle East etc, long tunnels cut through hillsides to gather table water for wells, and the tankas or storage ponds of India and elsewhere, which harvested rainwater. Our word 'tank' derives from tanka. Many of these systems are hundreds or thousands of years old, located in very arid areas, and people who have cleaned them up are having great success with gathering water, in contrast to neighbors still dependent on the Western approaches of dams/reservoirs and deep wells powered by electric pumps; or relying on water shipped in, for that matter.

Water use in the west is even more profligate than with oil. All it would take is for some Hollywood nimrods to make sand gardens chic and voila! no more precious H20 wasted on natural Astroturf.

[Ludi]

Most of our water problems could be solved within a generation (25 years), or less.

http://www.harvestingrainwater.com/

[yesplease]

There's a massive aqueduct that runs for over 400 miles appropriately named, the California Aqueduct.

It takes a titanic amount of energy to pump the water over mountain passes on its way down to So Cal.

Seriously! The SWP consumes about 4.5 billion kWh of electricity each year, about 1.5 percent of the state-wide electricity production, and all it does it provide pumped energy storage and water for the arid southern parts of the state. Sheesh, the second we can't have the AC on and set at 55F 24/7 we'll cut off the power for the SWP and water for the southern part of the state so that zombie goodness will insue!

[Ludi]

Seriously! The SWP consumes about 4.5 billion kWh of electricity each year,

Now, now! That looks like kind of a lot to me!

[jdmartin]

Most of our water problems could be solved within a generation (25 years), or less.

http://www.harvestingrainwater.com/

I know this guy!

[gnm]

Seriously! The SWP consumes about 4.5 billion kWh of electricity each year, about 1.5 percent of the state-wide electricity production, and all it does it provide pumped energy storage and water for the arid southern parts of the state. Sheesh, the second we can't have the AC on and set at 55F 24/7 we'll cut off the power for the SWP and water for the southern part of the state so that zombie goodness will insue!

According to this,

http://www.epa.gov/region09/waterinfrastructure/waterenergy.html

In California, the State Water Project (SWP) pumps water almost 2000 ft over the Tehachapi Mountains! The SWP is the largest single user of energy in California. It consumes an average of 5 billion kWh/yr, accounting for about 2 to 3 percent of all electricity consumed in California.

They are the largest single user of power in CA. I think by any definition thats a LOT of power....

Also cited there...

Water-related energy use in California also consumes approximately 20 percent of the state’s electricity, and 30 percent of the state’s non-power plant natural gas (i.e. natural gas not used to produce electricity).

I agree there is a lot of room to save water in the desert SW (no more golf courses you ignoramuses!)... So who's going to bend so that people can continue to afford drinking water?

-G

[yesplease]

Seriously! The SWP consumes about 4.5 billion kWh of electricity each year, about 1.5 percent of the state-wide electricity production, and all it does it provide pumped energy storage and water for the arid southern parts of the state. Sheesh, the second we can't have the AC on and set at 55F 24/7 we'll cut off the power for the SWP and water for the southern part of the state so that zombie goodness will insue!

According to this,

http://www.epa.gov/region09/waterinfrastructure/waterenergy.html

In California, the State Water Project (SWP) pumps water almost 2000 ft over the Tehachapi Mountains! The SWP is the largest single user of energy in California. It consumes an average of 5 billion kWh/yr, accounting for about 2 to 3 percent of all electricity consumed in California.

They are the largest single user of power in CA. I think by any definition thats a LOT of power....

Not really, obviously IMO, considering that gasoline usage amounts to ~500 billion kWh/year. Even the petroleum industry consumes twice as much electricity and ~120 billion kWh worth of natural gas, which could be another ~40-60 billion kWh of electricity. All things considered, I'd say there are much larger low hanging fruit in terms of excessive energy consumption.

I agree there is a lot of room to save water in the desert SW (no more golf courses you ignoramuses!)... So who's going to bend so that people can continue to afford drinking water?

-G

That's not solely a golf course, in other words use, issue, since most users along those lines get recycled water, but a problem in general with public acceptance, in America in general AFAIK. People simply won't use recycled water, so agriculture and others get it at a discount price. If people stopped being paranoid pissers, this wouldn't be an issue, not that we would eliminate golf courses and other frivolous uses, but at least we could reduce 'em and bring water use in golf courses and the like as an either/or situation instead of large users getting water that's "unfit" for human consumption.

[yesplease]

Seriously! The SWP consumes about 4.5 billion kWh of electricity each year,

Now, now! That looks like kind of a lot to me!

I suppose it just comes down to personal opinion than. I think we should, and will, reduce the 500 billion kWh of gasoline energy use each year, the energy used by the petroleum industry, and even the energy used at home, rather than subject the southern part of the state to a forced drought because the SWP consumes ~5 billion kWh/year. In other words, my definition of a lot is bigger, and arguably influenced by what's more frivolous use IMO.

[Ludi]

rather than subject the southern part of the state to a forced drought because the SWP consumes ~5 billion kWh/year.

yeah, but, they're taking that water from other folks.... and watering lawns with it.....

[gnm]

rather than subject the southern part of the state to a forced drought because the SWP consumes ~5 billion kWh/year.

yeah, but, they're taking that water from other folks.... and watering lawns with it.....

Indeed... The desert that is Owens valley, once a farming community. The bottom end of the Colorado river, the destruction of the wetlands which were once there, Now they have their eyes on Oregon farm's water... All to sustain the utterly unsustainable in Cali...

-G

[yesplease]

rather than subject the southern part of the state to a forced drought because the SWP consumes ~5 billion kWh/year.

yeah, but, they're taking that water from other folks.... and watering lawns with it.....

Um, that's true of more or less everything to some degree. Why is a problem in this case?

[Ludi]

Why is a problem in this case?

Because it is devastating other communities, for nothing (lawns).

[yesplease]

Lawns specifically only require a percent or so of water consumption since only 20% used by cities and industry according to the Sierra Club, with the other 80% being used by agriculture in CA. If anything, water consumption issues in CA are caused by growing crops, especially those that aren't low water/drought resistant, in arid grasslands/deserts. And even though agriculture and it's support industries make up a significant portion, ~5%, of CA's economy, if worse comes to worse it's what scales back because it's what uses the most water.

Iono, stuff like this confuses me. It's like complaining about cell phone chargers being left plugged in while we run the A/C or heat with a window open.

[Ludi]

It's like complaining about cell phone chargers being left plugged in while we run the A/C or heat with a window open.

Yeah, well, I don't do any of those things.

Not in favor of using someone else's water to grow crops in CA, either. Pardon me for forgetting to bitch about it.

[yesplease]

That's something else confusing me, if someone sells the rights to it, how is it still their water? According to that reasoning, nothing you own could be yours, even if you bought it, since it was originally the property of someone else. I don't mean to piss you off, I just don't understand how people can ignore the large and focus on the small, as well as apply selective standards.

[gnm]

That's something else confusing me, if someone sells the rights to it, how is it still their water? According to that reasoning, nothing you own could be yours, even if you bought it, since it was originally the property of someone else. I don't mean to piss you off, I just don't understand how people can ignore the large and focus on the small, as well as apply selective standards.

The large metropolises of the southwest have routinely used their substantial legal and political pull to seize water rights despite widespread protests in the area losing its water. Small farming communities invariably lose out. Why so keen to defend the unsustainable? Someone we know have a nice green lawn in LA? You _might_ be able to argue that its not much power (relative to the OBSCENE amounts being wasted on other things in CA), but you can't argue that its not much water... Owens valley has been literally sucked dry and the Colorado as well...

-G

[Ludi]

I just don't understand how people can ignore the large and focus on the small, as well as apply selective standards.

Because we forget to write a massive comprehensive essay every time we post.