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Re: Puerto Rico

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 28 Dec 2017, 09:14:49

vtsnowedin wrote:
onlooker wrote:So as we have noted PR was already in bad shape generally but now worse after the Hurricane
So the question becomes will the bankers and rich snap up all the best properties for pennies on the dollar and force millions of natives to move to the mainland to make room for their golf courses and resorts or will the natives resist and build a viable economy that welcomes tourist dollars but does not let them rule the roost.


From what I saw the best land was alread gone.

Outside the cities a lot of rural folks live on pretty poor land. Some of it obviously unstable.
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Re: Puerto Rico

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 28 Dec 2017, 09:55:11

dirtyharry wrote:Understand after 15 years New Orleans is still a lost cause . Just to remind you that New Orleans is on the mainland while PR is an island makes the job even more difficult . But,but and but there are fools ,what can I say ?


You are ignoring a crucial factor. The Lower ninth ward of New Orleans was a desperate slum where people lived in quite or even noisy desperation. When Katrina forced most of them to relocate to other cities like Baton Rouge or Houston for weeks or months they discovered that they could build relationships and happier lives in those other cities. Other than nostalgia why would they choose to go back to living in the slums of New Orleans when their lives were so much improved in their new cities? The answer is, many of them did not, at least not right away. In the first year following Katrina almost a quarter of the population of New Orleans opted to stay wherever they had relocated to.

The other factor is much of the "abandoned" slum land inside the city limits of New Orleans consists of very old houses built in a location well below mean sea level so once you have been flooded out how eager are you to return? Compounding that factor it was discovered around 2007 that a very aggressive species of insect, the Formosan Termite, had gone from being relatively suppressed to completely out of control as it invaded hundreds of empty structures and its population bloomed out of sight, out of mind. Before the city authorities were able to get the insect pest back under control most abandoned buildings were no longer fit for repair and being occupied any longer. The bulk of housing in the lower ninth ward were structurally damaged to the point of condemnation being the only option.

Now given these factors, both human and insect, what reasonable person would expect the poor slum residents to have flooded back into New Orleans just because they had been born there? The population was 483 Thousand in the 2000 census is estimated to have fallen all the way to 210 thousand immediately around Katrina in 2005 but recovered back to 336 thousand by 2008 as those who wanted to return did so. Now the city is around 391 thousand based on census bureau estimates and still slowly growing. However most of those
483 - 336 = 147 thousand who did not choose to return three years after Katrina are people who chose to stay living somewhere else and most likely they are not going to return. It isn't because New Orleans is doomed, sea level rise doomed it many decades ago. It is because the people who felt they had no better opportunities than staying discovered they had many when they were forced to leave because of Katrina. Nobody is keeping them away, they have chosen to stay away. If anything New Orleans is an example of how hopeless people when placed in a new environment can suddenly find life so sweet that they have no reason to crawl back into the hopeless place they had been existing before hand.
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Re: Puerto Rico

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 28 Dec 2017, 15:43:05

:twisted: Tanada,

Some of it might be simpler yet, we don’t like to move.

I know that from my HS class a surprising number of folks settled very close to where they were born and raised. One of my classmates expressed some genuine awe that I had moved all the way to Philadelphia, some 50 or so miles.

I’m proposing that people tend to stay where they are. Once you move them for some period of time, I don’t know, maybe three months, then they accept the “new” place as “home” and settle there.
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Re: Puerto Rico

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 28 Dec 2017, 16:21:31

That is another widely misunderstood aspect of primate behavior, the territorial imperative. Which is also the title of a pretty good book from the 1960s that explains the animal behavior that underlies our lust for possesions and property, up to and including nations.
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Re: Puerto Rico

Unread postby GHung » Thu 28 Dec 2017, 17:37:34

KaiserJeep wrote:That is another widely misunderstood aspect of primate behavior, the territorial imperative. Which is also the title of a pretty good book from the 1960s that explains the animal behavior that underlies our lust for possesions and property, up to and including nations.


That applies to other aspects of our lives besides physical location (territory); goes to what we've invested in. Behaviors and habits, people and relationships,, and especially beliefs. When all of the things we've invested in for years (part of who we are) becomes threatened, we'll defend that, right or wrong. When it is taken from us, we grieve for what was lost. Reestablishing all of those things is a lot of work, especially for folks who've been nowhere much and have done nothing much outside of their comfort zones.

Others never settle down or form relationships that matter much with people and places.
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Re: Puerto Rico

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 28 Dec 2017, 18:31:34

Newfie wrote::twisted: Tanada,

Some of it might be simpler yet, we don’t like to move.

I know that from my HS class a surprising number of folks settled very close to where they were born and raised. One of my classmates expressed some genuine awe that I had moved all the way to Philadelphia, some 50 or so miles.

I’m proposing that people tend to stay where they are. Once you move them for some period of time, I don’t know, maybe three months, then they accept the “new” place as “home” and settle there.
Before the advent of railroads and steam ships the vast majority of people lived and died withing fifty miles of their birth place. Travel and communication was difficult and often dangerous so it was reserved for the stout of heart. Today I am just fourteen miles from my birth place and seven miles from my father's birth place. I see no advantage in moving anywhere.
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Re: Puerto Rico

Unread postby onlooker » Thu 28 Dec 2017, 19:07:10

Ironic what Newf and Vts say given that:
State of nature: how modern humans lived as nomads for 99 per cent of our history

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 04967.html
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Re: Puerto Rico

Unread postby onlooker » Thu 28 Dec 2017, 19:25:49

Back more on subject:
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wir ... k-52015214
Thousands of Puerto Rico police owed overtime call in sick
This is a deadly brew now of faulty infrastructure and basic services, a pretty much bankrupt Island and now most certainly considering this linked article an environment of lawlessness and crime
Expect more Puertoricans trying to leave the Island.
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Re: Puerto Rico

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 28 Dec 2017, 19:48:32

onlooker wrote:Ironic what Newf and Vts say given that:
State of nature: how modern humans lived as nomads for 99 per cent of our history

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 04967.html

The author of that is an idiot.
Nomadic people followed their preferred game species from summer range to winter range and back again. This most often pulled them in a circle that had them winter in the same spot year on year. If you knew that a lot of salmon come up river and were easy to catch at a rapids would you not make sure you were there when the run started? Would you not know the migration routes and schedules of the mega fauna you relied on and be at the place where they were easiest to kill when they came streaming through that funnel?
And I'll bet he (the author) never walked fifty miles carrying all he owned on his back with his wife and children in tow and similarly burdened.
It was the odd year of drought or flood etc. that pushed people into new regions they had never seen before.
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Re: Puerto Rico

Unread postby GHung » Thu 28 Dec 2017, 20:11:12

onlooker wrote:Back more on subject:
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wir ... k-52015214
Thousands of Puerto Rico police owed overtime call in sick
This is a deadly brew now of faulty infrastructure and basic services, a pretty much bankrupt Island and now most certainly considering this linked article an environment of lawlessness and crime
Expect more Puertoricans trying to leave the Island.


I wonder how many of their National Guard stuck around. They only had about 10,000 per Wikipedia, but by law, they can't cut and run.
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Re: Puerto Rico

Unread postby dirtyharry » Fri 29 Dec 2017, 08:47:21

Tanada wrote:
dirtyharry wrote:Understand after 15 years New Orleans is still a lost cause . Just to remind you that New Orleans is on the mainland while PR is an island makes the job even more difficult . But,but and but there are fools ,what can I say ?


You are ignoring a crucial factor. The Lower ninth ward of New Orleans was a desperate slum where people lived in quite or even noisy desperation. When Katrina forced most of them to relocate to other cities like Baton Rouge or Houston for weeks or months they discovered that they could build relationships and happier lives in those other cities. Other than nostalgia why would they choose to go back to living in the slums of New Orleans when their lives were so much improved in their new cities? The answer is, many of them did not, at least not right away. In the first year following Katrina almost a quarter of the population of New Orleans opted to stay wherever they had relocated to.

The other factor is much of the "abandoned" slum land inside the city limits of New Orleans consists of very old houses built in a location well below mean sea level so once you have been flooded out how eager are you to return? Compounding that factor it was discovered around 2007 that a very aggressive species of insect, the Formosan Termite, had gone from being relatively suppressed to completely out of control as it invaded hundreds of empty structures and its population bloomed out of sight, out of mind. Before the city authorities were able to get the insect pest back under control most abandoned buildings were no longer fit for repair and being occupied any longer. The bulk of housing in the lower ninth ward were structurally damaged to the point of condemnation being the only option.

Now given these factors, both human and insect, what reasonable person would expect the poor slum residents to have flooded back into New Orleans just because they had been born there? The population was 483 Thousand in the 2000 census is estimated to have fallen all the way to 210 thousand immediately around Katrina in 2005 but recovered back to 336 thousand by 2008 as those who wanted to return did so. Now the city is around 391 thousand based on census bureau estimates and still slowly growing. However most of those
483 - 336 = 147 thousand who did not choose to return three years after Katrina are people who chose to stay living somewhere else and most likely they are not going to return. It isn't because New Orleans is doomed, sea level rise doomed it many decades ago. It is because the people who felt they had no better opportunities than staying discovered they had many when they were forced to leave because of Katrina. Nobody is keeping them away, they have chosen to stay away. If anything New Orleans is an example of how hopeless people when placed in a new environment can suddenly find life so sweet that they have no reason to crawl back into the hopeless place they had been existing before hand.

My dear friend ,what you have outlined for New Orleans applies to PR . We are on the same page . Like i said in an earlier post , I am not interested in the past ( I am aware of all you have said) ,my POV is will/can PR be rebuilt ? The answer is NO .
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Re: Puerto Rico

Unread postby Cog » Fri 29 Dec 2017, 11:37:59

Puerto Rico is pretty much like the 9th Ward in New Orleans. A bunch of welfare sucking, Democrat voting slugs. They don't care about their kids, their village, or themselves. Best thing we could have done as a country is to do nothing.
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Re: Puerto Rico

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 29 Dec 2017, 11:41:15

Dirty Harry wrote:
,my POV is will/can PR be rebuilt ? The answer is NO .

My POV is it will be. It is not below sea level and is not subsiding which is what dooms the poor districts in New Orleans.
The poor people have a hard choice. Find the money for a plane ticket to the USA mainland and start over , or pick up a hammer and saw and start over right where they are. Many will choose to stay and the cleanup and rebuilding will get done over a number of years. Lets hope they build with a lot more concrete then they have in the past.
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Re: Puerto Rico

Unread postby Cog » Fri 29 Dec 2017, 11:45:11

Are Puerto Ricans handicapped in some way that they can't tack their own tin roofs back to the rafters of their shack? Must I come down there and hold their hands?
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Re: Puerto Rico

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 29 Dec 2017, 15:13:22

Sometimes we forget the political scandals that underly "natural disasters".

While it is true that Hurrican Katrina was a natural disaster, the dire impact upon the city of NO was entirely due to the antiquated system of levees, dams, and flood control basins that was in place. There were noticeable flaws and shortcomings in the 1950s when I lived there. The Army Corps of Engineers warned of these problems repeatedly, to no avail. Every time the ACE budget to improve flood controls was allocated, local politicians changed priorities on the ACE project list, and built things like new piers and dredged channels for larger ships in the Port of New Orleans. Three generations of NO mayors and others - all Democrats and all Black - enriched themselves with casino gambling on the riverboat gambling palaces this enabled. Then hurricane Katrina put an end to the revelry.

Puerto Rico has long been a destination for sex vacations, prostitution including child prostitution, partying, Spring Break revelry by collegians, and the like. Drugs and alcohol abound, and there is a long and unbroken record of whichever Democrat promises the lowest taxes and the biggest handouts being elected and re-elected. Like I said in a previous post, nobody but nobody is investing capital there now, because the people enjoy US HDTVs, the Internet, and basicly aspire to US lifestyles. Meaning that PR citizens are Second World status, aspiring to First World lifestyles. Don't let anybody ever tell you that Labor activism doesn't destroy jobs, because Detroit and Puerto Rico are prime examples that contradict that assertion. Then hurricane Maria put an end to the revelry.

I say we build out the place with appropriate and durable hurricane-resistant housing and infrastructure. Then give them one more referendum on US statehood. The choices then would be US statehood and Independance, without "remaining a US territory" even on the ballot.
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Re: Puerto Rico

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 29 Dec 2017, 15:21:51

KaiserJeep wrote:I say we build out the place with appropriate and durable hurricane-resistant housing and infrastructure. Then give them one more referendum on US statehood. The choices then would be US statehood and Independance, without "remaining a US territory" even on the ballot.

I disagree. I think we tell them it's time to get serious and realize money doesn't grow on trees. If they want their infrastructure built up as you suggest, they need to approve statehood (and paying US federal income taxes) FIRST, and stop imagining that like Greece, they can live on the dole, pay little taxes, and be taken care of for the long term.

As a taxpayer, it seems we already have PLENTY of needed projects done right in the US, where citizens pay for those projects.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Puerto Rico

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 29 Dec 2017, 16:30:29

Philosophically correct, OS, but practically a non-starter. Unemployment in PR has been growing for decades, as the jobs were lost to Globalization. Even with a new infrastructure the place would rank well below Missisippi, currently ranked 51st in the 50 states and the D of C.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_income

PR is sitting at less than half of Missisippi, and those were numbers generated before Maria tore the place up.

OTOH, the D of C is #2. Must be "trickle down" from the Federal Government....
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Re: Puerto Rico

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 29 Dec 2017, 16:44:09

From Wiki

In November 2012, a referendum, the fourth as of that date, was held. A full 54.00% voted "No" to maintaining the current political status. Of those who voted against remaining a Commonwealth, 61.11% chose statehood, 33.34% chose free association, and 5.55% chose independence.[2][3][4][5] On December 11, 2012, the Legislative Assembly of Puerto Rico enacted a concurrent resolution requesting the President and the Congress of the United States to respond diligently and effectively on the demand of the people of Puerto Rico to end its current political status and to begin the transition of Puerto Rico to become a state of the union.[6]

In 2014, resolutions were introduced in both houses of the United States Congress (H.R. 2000; S. 2020) to hold a yes-or-no referendum among the residents of Puerto Rico on statehood. If a "yes" majority prevails, the President would submit legislation to Congress enacting Puerto Rican statehood.[7][8] Both resolutions died in committee.[9]

The fifth referendum was held on June 11, 2017. Those who voted overwhelmingly chose statehood by 97.18% with 1.50% favouring independence and 1.32% maintaining commonwealth status; turnout, however, was 23%, a historically low figure.[10] This figure is attributed to a boycott led by the pro-status quo PPD party.[11] Nonetheless, this figure is comparable to other states’ during their admission process: Wisconsin’s statehood referendum had a 17% turnout, Arizona 7%, Hawaii 35%, and Alaska had a 21% turnout.[not in ci
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Re: Puerto Rico

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 29 Dec 2017, 17:01:22

Yes, PBS went over those figures about two months ago. The 23% figure was well below the 54% participation in the prior referendum, where they voted to remain a territory. The difference is attributed to the PPD party, and that is the same group that supposedly has in the past given clandestine support to the FALN. The FALN (Fuerzas Armadas de Liberación Nacional Puertorriqueña) was a Marxist group in PR that claimed credit for more than 120 bomb attacks on US soil from 1974-1983. Their ideology was complete independance from the USA, and joining the USSR. I don't think that sentiment has changed much since then, there simply is no USSR to join anymore, even Cuba has come around and is turning Capitalist.
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Re: Puerto Rico

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 29 Dec 2017, 20:38:55

http://thehill.com/policy/energy-enviro ... icials-say
Nearly half of Puerto Rico customers still lack power, officials say
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