[Food] Production - Trees Pt. 2

[Heineken]

I ate the last Saijo persimmons off the tree last week. They were in surpisingly good shape after repeated freezes with no discoloration or wrinkling. I just bit a hole in the skin and sucked out the flesh, which was jelly and had as much sugar a commercial jam. I got 30 off the tree this year, and would have had more but this was the tree that hammered into the ground by a large falling tree trunk two years ago. A couple were pecked by birds, but the squirrels have completely drawn a blank on the persimmons so far.

Am I mistaken, or does freezing weather actually improve the eating quality of persimmons? I seem to remember reading that somewhere. Was that your experience?

[PrestonSturges]

I ate the last Saijo persimmons off the tree last week. They were in surpisingly good shape after repeated freezes with no discoloration or wrinkling. I just bit a hole in the skin and sucked out the flesh, which was jelly and had as much sugar a commercial jam. I got 30 off the tree this year, and would have had more but this was the tree that hammered into the ground by a large falling tree trunk two years ago. A couple were pecked by birds, but the squirrels have completely drawn a blank on the persimmons so far.

Am I mistaken, or does freezing weather actually improve the eating quality of persimmons? I seem to remember reading that somewhere. Was that your experience?

A couple freezes did seem to remove nearly all traces of astringency. These are the soft ones, so they were already mushy inside, although the fruits were plump and filled out the skins like water balloons.

I also froze some that I had picked earlier, and I ate those like a popsicles. They had a very nice sorbet flavor, but the trace of astringency remained up by the stem, so freezing them solid was not enough to remove the astringency. It's more like the ripening of a late season apple that won't sweeten until there's a frost, and then they benefit from sitting around for one to five weeks Other methods include ripening them in a closed pot with a few drops of alcohol, or pricking with a pin dipped in alcohol. The Japanese have other colorful methods like smoking them under straw mats over burning dung, and they also like to eat them sour in various forms.

One year at the nursery we ate some that had hung on the tree all winter, and they were floppy, nearly black, and full of goo. Although they looked awful, they were perfectly edible, with a slightly prunelike flavor.

The hard nonastringent persimmons also hung on the tree through a couple hard frosts without damage. They also ripened pretty well indoors on the counter and they ripened in the refidgerator also, whcih would limit their commercial value as a fresh fruit. I guess that's why we often see them in the store past their prime.

[furrybill]

I may be coming into possession of about 16 acres of good high ground with a small stream on one side. I'm thinking of setting up an orchard on 2 or more acres. Something popped into my head today and I was wondering what you all would think of it. I could set the orchard up with half dwarf trees and half normal size. The dwarfs will start producing fruit almost immediately and by about the same time they're finished the normal ones may be ready to start giving fruit. Would use the same amount of space because the dwarfs could go in the empty space between the normal sized trees. Thoughts?

[PrestonSturges]

I may be coming into possession of about 16 acres of good high ground with a small stream on one side. I'm thinking of setting up an orchard on 2 or more acres. Something popped into my head today and I was wondering what you all would think of it. I could set the orchard up with half dwarf trees and half normal size. The dwarfs will start producing fruit almost immediately and by about the same time they're finished the normal ones may be ready to start giving fruit. Would use the same amount of space because the dwarfs could go in the empty space between the normal sized trees. Thoughts?

Apples? I dunno, I'd keep them separated. Although it would work better if the rows are oriented east to west so the tall trees don't cast shadows on the small trees. If the rows were north to south, it would be particularly bad as the tall rows would quickly put the shorter rows in the shade, greatly reducing yield. Plus you'll make better use of your sprays keeping the fruiting trees together.

[Loki]

Furrybill, it's not a bad idea, but as Preston points out, be sure to site them appropriately. In addition to shade, consider watering requirements. Dwarves are a bit more demanding.

Apples have the best record with dwarfing rootstocks, what else are you considering? Pear w/ quince rootstock? Any Prunus species?

[PrestonSturges]

You can expect pears to take a couple years longer than apples to bear fruit. Apples are very precocious. Pears have fewer insect pests, and are picked to ripen off the tree. You can probably find apples that will ripen earlier in the year than pears.

[careinke]

I may be coming into possession of about 16 acres of good high ground with a small stream on one side. I'm thinking of setting up an orchard on 2 or more acres. Something popped into my head today and I was wondering what you all would think of it. I could set the orchard up with half dwarf trees and half normal size. The dwarfs will start producing fruit almost immediately and by about the same time they're finished the normal ones may be ready to start giving fruit. Would use the same amount of space because the dwarfs could go in the empty space between the normal sized trees. Thoughts?

Check out "Forest Gardens" before you do anything. Even if you decide not to go that route, you will still glean some tips about what you are asking. Over planning will save time and grief in the long run.

[topcat]

Dwarfs will need support. Trellis is best (think of grapes on a taller scale).

[PrestonSturges]

Dwarfs will need support. Trellis is best (think of grapes on a taller scale).

Especially modern apples, which put most of their energy into fruit rather than wood. I've had really good luck staking up individual trees with heavy gauge aluminum conduit sunk 2' into the ground.

[PeakOiler]

One of my [Food] Production-Trees challenges is eventually getting the citrus trees out of their pots and into the ground. Frost protection will be essential.

One of the satsuma tangerine trees was transplanted into the ground over two years ago and it has survived so far but hasn't produced any fruit since it was transplanted. It had produced some fruit the season before I transplanted it. When the overnight lows have dipped below freezing, I protected the young tree by enclosing it under a big wooden shipping crate. (I should post a pic to better illustrate the temporary enclosure.) I also covered the tree with a "Planket" and used one 75-watt incandescent light bulb to provide a little warmth on the nights when the low was below 30 F (-2 C), which has only occurred twice this year so far.

[PeakOiler]

Here is a picture taken this morning of the young tangerine tree in a box:



I can remove one side of the shipping crate (the south-facing side) to allow sun on the tree like today. You can see the dark green "Planket" hanging from the inside of the crate which I would cover the tree with during freezing conditions. The yellow-handled drop-light is currently lying on the ground right in front of the tree. I'll hang the light from one of the lower branches for those cold nights. I'll also replace the side of the crate so the tree would be completely enclosed.

[PeakOiler]

Since I finished processing the last pink grapefruit (it was delicious) harvested in December 2011 and also juiced the last lemons harvested in December, I updated my Tree Summary spreadsheet closing out 2011.



Three grapefruit and one lemon harvested last month have not been eaten yet.

All in all, 2011 was not a good year for my trees, except for the satsuma and grapefruit.

Pecans: Drought and drought-starving critters thwarted my pecan harvest.
Drought thwarted my peach harvest in 2011.
Drought negated my pears in 2011.
The three pomegranate are still too young to produce.
The lemons were hurt by the record-setting freezing temperatures in Feb 2011. I ended up with nearly one liter of lemon juice. I need to check the retail price of bottled lemon juice. I was using 2007 prices for the 2011 estimate for lemon juice.
One lime tree died from the freezing temps in Feb. 2011, the other was severely hurt but is recovering.
The blood orange is still young.
The young navel orange produced it's first fruit in 2011.
The drought hurt the baby fig trees.
The young mineola tangelo is presently putting out a lot of new growth.
The banana tree(s) never completely froze back this winter so far. One has turned into at least three btw.
The avocado is still too young to produce.
The bay laurel is the "new tree on the block," received as a gift for Christmas.
The spotlight was on the satsuma tangerines last year. They all are getting big enough to produce quite a bit of fruit.
I did produce 61 citrus fruits in 2011.

Now if I can sell $115.91 peaches this year, I'll be "in the green."

[furrybill]

Guys many thanks for all your replies. I've got a copy of Forest Gardens and a couple others of the same type on their way from Amazon as we speak. With 16 acres I guess I'll be able to experiment with lots of ideas. Thanks for pointing out the importance of shade when planting. And the advice on trellising dwarf trees is appreciated as well.

I'm hoping to plant all kinds of trees. The part of Maine I'm in has been reclassified as zone 6a. So in theory Apples, Cherries, Plums, Peaches, Pears, Paw-Paw should all be pretty easy. I'm thinking of trying a couple hardy figs too. I figure I'll be able to get 40-50 trees per acre so I can try lots of different heirloom types.

Then of course I've got to look at an acre or two of nut trees as well, and the acre or two of kiwi, raspberries, blueberries, grapes, etc...

[davep]

Guys many thanks for all your replies. I've got a copy of Forest Gardens and a couple others of the same type on their way from Amazon as we speak. With 16 acres I guess I'll be able to experiment with lots of ideas. Thanks for pointing out the importance of shade when planting. And the advice on trellising dwarf trees is appreciated as well.

I'm hoping to plant all kinds of trees. The part of Maine I'm in has been reclassified as zone 6a. So in theory Apples, Cherries, Plums, Peaches, Pears, Paw-Paw should all be pretty easy. I'm thinking of trying a couple hardy figs too. I figure I'll be able to get 40-50 trees per acre so I can try lots of different heirloom types.

Then of course I've got to look at an acre or two of nut trees as well, and the acre or two of kiwi, raspberries, blueberries, grapes, etc...

With that kind of acreage I wouldn't bother with the hassles of trellising if I were you (unless you were planting, say, citrus trees in a large greenhouse attached to the south side of the house, for example).

[PrestonSturges]

Guys many thanks for all your replies. I've got a copy of Forest Gardens and a couple others of the same type on their way from Amazon as we speak. With 16 acres I guess I'll be able to experiment with lots of ideas. Thanks for pointing out the importance of shade when planting. And the advice on trellising dwarf trees is appreciated as well....

And leave yourself a nice area for shooting critters. Leave a good strip of brush connecting to the nearest large woodlot, have a hill for a backstop, preferably with a stream at the bottom, plant late season fruit and berries, make sure you have a way to sneak in without flushing the animals and with access for someone else to sneak in and flush the game to you. Also, try to take advantage of hunters on neighboring properties pushing game to you.

How to do this may not be apparent for several seasons, and you will need to spend a lot of time outside during hunting season. Deer tend to have schedule, and sometimes you can find a path they use at the same time of day year in and year out.

Even if this is not your cup of tee, you may need to bring in experienced hunters to keep deer at tolerable levels.

[Shaved Monkey]

I figure I'll be able to get 40-50 trees per acre so I can try lots of different heirloom types.
Then of course I've got to look at an acre or two of nut trees as well, and the acre or two of kiwi, raspberries, blueberries, grapes, etc...

I got all that and more on less than a quarter of an acre.

[PrestonSturges]

Yes, I have about 18 trees on a tenth of an acre, with room for plenty more if I did some ax work. I'm hoping my 4 year old kiwi vine will gives some fruit or at least some flowers this summer.

[Shaved Monkey]

Do you have a male and female Kiwi vine ?

[PrestonSturges]

Do you have a male and female Kiwi vine ?

I have an Anna female and a male vine, not sure if it has a name. The Anna has an 8x8x8 trellis and it's planted behind a little retaining wall of rubble rock holding about 30 gallons of good dirt, with decent soil under that. I haven't had flowers yet, and flowers are decorative and fragrant.

[furrybill]

Yes, I have about 18 trees on a tenth of an acre, with room for plenty more if I did some ax work. I'm hoping my 4 year old kiwi vine will gives some fruit or at least some flowers this summer.

Monkey and Preston - are those dwarf trees? What kinds of techniques are you using to pack them in so close? Do you have pictures or maps you could share with us? Would love to hear your real-world experiences.