[Food] Production - Cattle/Grass Farming

[NTBKtrader]

I found a good cattle forum
http://www.cattletoday.com/forum/

[Pops]

More questions, I see that there are different prices for "carcass weight". My idea of a carcass is whats left after it's been stripped of it's meat. Or do I have that backward?

No its after being gutted, skinned, etc - only useable meat and bone - or Live Weight vs. Hanging.

I'm assuming overheard costs are high with raising cattle. i.e. medications, deworming, fence upkeep, etc?

The no. 1 variable between profit and loss is feed costs. That’s the deal with grazing – it is the cheapest way to feed bar none. There are better feeds if measured by cost vs. nutrition if you could make sure you are only feeding exactly what they can use, but in practice, grazing is by far cheaper, alfalfa is 200% more expensive, concentrates and grain 400% more.

[deMolay]

I was into commercial beef and BSE ended that, if you are raising beef, you need to look at the feed conversion rates of the different breeds of beef and the end purpose. For commercial beef one of the best breeds is the Black Baldie that is a cross between Black Angus and Hereford. People generally do not sell their purebred animals for meat. Way too expensive. So guys like myself would start say with Black Angus cows of best quality affordable then put a Hereford Bull on them. They make the best range cow and cow calf operation. They are excellant mothers, strong herd instincts, and ease of calving. Now I am raising Highlands. They have the lowest input/upkeep costs of all beef. They take longer to finish a calf but the natural range fed beef brings a premium, since BSE. You don't dare feed a Highland grain, their feed conversion rates are so high they get wattling fat. When you cross breed them to say Hereford the calf will outgrow it's mother by fall. I have learned over the years that genetics pays back big time. Grass fed or natural fed beef is starting to bring a premium. Which will be good for the little guys like myself.

[deMolay]

I graze about 100 cow/calves/bulls every summer. You have to pay attention to what the animals prefer to eat, they are like any other animal including humans and will eat their first choice favourite first. I have 800 acres which includes 100 acres of bush. The bush is very important for weather protection from storms and summer shade. You have to rotate them constantly. I rotate them every 10 days approx. If you overgraze you will kill your grass. Especially if the weather turns dry. Grass is like a tree when you look at the root system and if you take a spade and dig some of the sod over and look at the root system, it will tell you how well your pasture is doing. If you have a very small poor root system rest your grass. Also with goats and sheep, don't let them into your bush unless you don't want a bush. They will deforest it very fast. Large parts of asia and africa are now desert because of goats. They have to be managed carefully. As to eating grass fed beef, no problem either have the butcher hang the meat for 21 days in cold storage or feed a little oats/barley for a month before slaughter. You will cut it with a fork. When I was growing up we grazed everything. Pigs chickens sheep cows. The pigs got rounded up when their young were the size to be weined. We just led the sow and her young in with a feed bucket. The biggest expense to managing grass like Pops said is water. You should never let your animals drink directly from the source be it river stream or dugout. They pollute the water. Always fence out the water and pump to a suitable trough. Solar is expensive to set up but once you do the cost is basically done and it is very automatic. Never overgraze. That short term profit will kill your grass.

[Pops]

Thanks for chiming in DeMolay!

As you mentioned, if you overgraze you are simply stealing from the future.

In a cool season grass like fescue, if you graze half the standing height, from say; 8”-10”and leave half, the roots continue to grow as if nothing was taken. If you take 60% it takes 2-3 weeks for the roots to begin growing again! Warm season grasses are different in they grow new leaves from higher on the plant and can’t be grazed below 6”-8” and must be allowed to rest in the fall.

Fescue is also virtually indestructible – contrary to many people’s wishes in fact. You can definitely retard its growth by overgrazing, but sometimes that is a good thing. In order to get some legumes and perhaps a little orchardgrass established in the fescue we’ve deliberately over-grazed it this fall (not too hard to do considering the drought) so it will have a slower start in the spring. We’ll frost-seed white and red clover (broadcast the seed while the ground is frozen in February) and the slower start by the fescue will keep it from shading out the clovers in the spring.

One more thing I’ve learned about fescue is it makes the best-stockpiled forage for winter grazing. Stockpiling is basically fertilizing fescue with N and letting it grow ungrazed from about Mid-August forward until all other forage is exhausted and then strip grazing the field during Dec.-Feb. Managed grazing tries to eliminate much of the need for large machinery, and stockpiling is one of the ways to take advantage of the fall growth of fescue without any equipment whatsoever. Fescue maintains nutrition to be good forage better than most grasses - even after 3 months of lying dormant, due to the waxy coating on the leaves. One presenter at the class stated that one-acre of 10” fescue can feed a 1,000# animal for 75 days! He had the research to back up the claim - I am somewhat skeptical though willing to try.

Additionally, the entophyte fungus that causes the Summer Slump associated with fescue also dissipates when stockpiled. My eventual plan calls for grazing fescue/legume in the spring to the extent my animals can keep up, then instead of haying and applying fertilizer to areas to be stockpiled, I will clip the grass and let the cuttings lie (recycling the nutrients and hopefully eliminating the need for additional N) and rest the grass through the entire summer to be grazed in the fall and winter. I did this to good effect on one 5ac plot this year - unfortunately I had to graze it because of the drought.

Of course the additional benefit of this system is that by feeding your stockpiled hay where it grows, you return the nutrients right back where they came from in the form of manure.

Over summer I plan to have an appropriate amount of warm season pasture/legume to graze whatever animals I may have – at this point we plan on raising spring bottle calves to be turned out on the warm season grass in summer then fescue in the fall and the stockpiled fescue through the winter - to be sold the following late winter into the top of the market.

That’s the plan today anyway…

[pip]

How many heffers will a cow birth typically in a year?

I know you mean calves per year. Theoretically, your cow will have one calf per year. However, there are a lot of things that can go wrong like cows not getting bred, calving difficulties, sickness, etc. I've read that only 80% of the nation's cows wean a calf every year. So don't assume you will be able to sell 1 calf per cow every year.

[Ludi]

In drier areas, stocking rate can be closer to one animal unit (cow plus nursing calf) per 50 - 100 acres.

In my part of Texas, stocking rate should be one animal unit per 20 -50 acres, but everyone overstocks, ruining the land.

[skyemoor]

You will likely have many, many more questions. I recommend this BOOK to help you with those questions, because you'll get lots of good but conflicting answers if you attempt to spin up on cattle raising by reading several forums.

I raise sheep primarily, but have also raised steers (male neutered cattle) from weaning until market. The Storey books are clearcut, informative, and down to earth.

Are you planning on breeding? You need to consider what it takes to manage a bull, or perform AI. Provides a new meaning to "roll up yer sleeves and get busy"...

[Daculling]

No its after being gutted, skinned, etc - only useable meat and bone - or Live Weight vs. Hanging.

Live Weight is typically describe as "On the hoof" around here.

On raising beef though... my father and I both agree that post PO goats would be a better choice. Cattle take valuable grain that could feed people or vehicles in the future. Goats (I believe) do pretty well on mostly grass. I ate a goat by accident once and it was ok, I guess I'd do it again. I'm out of the cattle but my father still has some for fun.

[uNkNowN ElEmEnt]

Goats (I believe) do pretty well on mostly grass. I ate a goat by accident once and it was ok, I guess I'd do it again.

My aunt had a couple on her farm and they are easy to feed. I've had them try to eat the clothes off my back (that grass/drool stain is really hard to wash out). But how do they taste? is it greasy like goose? or more like lamb (which I can't remember right now).

[Pops]

Cattle take valuable grain that could feed people or vehicles in the future. Goats (I believe) do pretty well on mostly grass.

http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic12179.html

I ate a goat by accident once and it was ok, I guess I'd do it again.

Now wait a minute, you ate a goat and it was OK - as in it didn't mind being eaten, or you didn't mind the taste?

A goat I could eat over and over would be a great thing!!!

[NTBKtrader]

I ate a kangaroo by accident once.

[Daculling]

My aunt had a couple on her farm and they are easy to feed. I've had them try to eat the clothes off my back (that grass/drool stain is really hard to wash out). But how do they taste? is it greasy like goose? or more like lamb (which I can't remember right now).

Well I guess it depends on how it is prepared but here's my situation. My roommate went to a Salvadorian BBQ and brough it some back home. He told me to dig in and left. It was prepared kind of like a roast but it had a lot of spices in it. It tasted like beef but was kinda tough and stringy, it was a little more greasy. I assumed from this that they were using it as some kind of taco meat. It was good but took some chewing. Then the roommate returned and asked how I liked that old billy goat.

[Pops]

Per sky’s suggestion here is a homegrown hamburger thread…

We are raising dairy bottle calves, mostly Holstein cross bull calves, either for stockers or feeders at the moment.

We have had an extended drought here in SW MO but received 3” a few days ago. It was badly needed. Although it is late in the season even for cool grasses, the weather has been exceptionally warm – approaching 80F for the last week and our fescue is responding well.

Our larger steers are looking pretty good and though they are around 700# - which is a good sale weight, we are holding off selling them for another month or so since the prices usually rise as winter wears on. We have no feed costs so there isn’t any hurry. And as mentioned before, they are keeping the grass short where we intend to plant clover.

Our system, such as it, is goes like this, bottle feed brand new babies morning and night in individual pens within a large, South facing shed, after the first 3 days of colostrum, they get starter feed as well as milk replacer, after about a month they are weaned and get a little hay and a 16% protein feed twice a day. After weaning they go into a small pen made from 36in. hog panels attached to the same shed for shelter and continue on feed and more hay. At about 2 months, they are castrated and de-horned and go into a small paddock (we call it the corral) to start on grass and get accustomed to electric fencing – this paddock is 5-strand barbed wire with an offset of hot steel wire and also poly-wire, since we use both, they now only get feed once a day.

We fenced an additional paddock yesterday using 2 strands of smooth steel electric fencing – about an acre, and today we’ll turn out the larger (350#?) calves because…

We have 4 - 250# calves to get a working on and then turn into the corral from the weaning small pen because…

We have three newly weaned and vaccinated calves to go in that pen, because…

I need to clean out the shed for a couple more late babies we are hoping to get.

[Pops]

A few recent challenges.

Fencing, although our perimeter fence is poor to good we’ve had no trouble with animals getting through it. We’ve been experimenting with a combination of soft steel wire and polywire to divide the paddocks. On the one hand they are relatively easy to put up, on the other they don’t last well. Kind of a trade as we figure the best layout. Starting in the spring (given the money) we’ll be putting up more permanent hi-tensile smooth wire.

Water, it’s starting to get cold and since we don’t have any freeze-proof tanks we’ve been chipping lots of ice. When cold weather really sets in it will be a challenge. I hope to have at least one tank made from an old tractor tire with concrete poured in for the bottom finished soon. I’ll sink an 8” pipe sunk down a couple of feet to try and gain some ground heat. Otherwise I’ll be chipping ice all winter.

Bloat, we’ve had our second case of bloat, this time in an 8-week old calf I was just about to put on grass. It’s been going on for about 3 days and we’ve stuck mineral oil in every available orfice, and still had to tube him twice to get the gas out. Today we’re giving him a dose of a med that contains good bacteria, as that seems to be the problem according to this site:
http://www.merricks.com/tech_bloat.htm

Still trying to get the corral and working/loading chute complete so we can work the little ones and ship the big ‘uns.

[Pops]

Just a note before I freeze my fingers off, the vet said his rumen may not have developed sufficiently and to put him back on the bottle.

Will update…

[NTBKtrader]

i would think miniature/lowline cattle would be very desirable in a post peak world... along with the hardier breeds

[Pops]

I merged some older threads to this one you might want to check out if you haven’t already NTBK – especially pip's post on genetics a ways back.

[killJOY]

As a novice, I can't add much information. I (we, actually) tend to read few books because it gets overwhelming.

I regret not getting into cattle sooner. We used to raise sheep, and I hated every minute of it, as they constantly got through the fence, which wouldn't be so bad, but the pasture is next to a fairly busy road.

My partner talked about getting a cow for a long time. I resisted but eventually made a deal: get rid of sheep, get cow.

I am now in love with an American milking Devon named Belle. Here's a picture of her sire, Rufus:




Rufus is pretty famous. The farmer even has his own Website about him. Devons are fabulous for small farmers, and they go back to early American history.

Wish I had a pic of Belle. She is so beautiful, stately, matronly. We sold her first calf back to the guy we got her from, as he needed another ox for a team. Then we bought a young heifer (Hannah) from a guy in Massachusetts. I was stunned to see Belle and the new heifer take to each other like natural mother and calf! Now we can't keep her off the tits! We tie them in stanchions apart from each other, but Belle has found a way to swing around to let the calf nurse. Even using a "weaner" didn't work: Belle tolerated it. We get between one and two quarts a day.

We have only 15 acres of grazing land, so our herd will stay small (we also have two horses). We also prefer the dairying over the meat; what beef we have we buy from a local farmer.

People won't buy a quart of milk for $2 now, and I won't just give it away. Post peak, when prices rise, I expect we'll be selling more. Don figures he could milk a maximum of four cows. We've been getting better at making butter, and I'm in the middle of our third experiment with cottage cheese.

Very low tech here: the cows go out to pasture in summer, and they come in the barn in winter and eat hay. Don gives them each about a pound of all-purpose 14 grain a day, to keep them happy.

We also pasture our birds: in the summers, we just open the chicken and turkey house doors and let them spend the day in the orchard (about an acre). Rest of the year we got to keep the feeder full.

This is learn as you go. We'll breed Belle soon, and then Hannah next fall. Keep you posted.

[Pops]

We sold the yearling steers at auction and made $400 on a 900# half Angus that brought $101cwt and around $200 each on the Holsteins that averaged just less than 800# and brought $88cwt.

We now have 12 weaned calves ranging up to maybe 400# and one brand new baby. That little guy was born about 2 weeks ahead of schedule on a snowy slushy evening and spent several hours on our back porch getting warm.

Since we’re raising all our calves now from babies we’ll have less than $200 invested in each and figure we can raise 30-40 head a year.

Oh and the bloat calf seems to have outgrown the bloat! I’m amazed; everyone told me to sell him because he would never outgrow it. Unfortunately, he at so much grain and milk replacer I doubt we’ll ever make our money back.

I’m starting to replace the poly-wire and soft steel wire with hi-tensile now that I have an idea how things work.

Also, with the help of a neighbor I’m about finished building a working/loading chute.

Finally – about the grass: we don’t have any. Well, we have about 5 acres of stockpiled fescue left but we haven’t had much rain for a long while and everything is brown. Second warmest January on record - but with no rain…