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THE Federal Reserve Thread pt 1 (merged)

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of hydrocarbon depletion.

Unread postby some_guy282 » Sun 08 May 2005, 23:26:35

TrueKaiser wrote:read a history book.
the federal reserve bank is not a cartel, its a nessary system for a large country to work. before the fed came along each privatly owned bank made their own curency and the farther you went from the bank the less it was worth.(becuase the farther you went the less people heard about the bank you got it from). the federal reserve bank then started to print and stamp the offical u.s. curencey so people like you and me can go from new york to a small town in new mexico without even echangeing a dime between private banks to have usable money.
right now they are in charge of keeping the system flowing by printing replacement money to replace worn out bill's (one dollar bills last about a year the others last on average about 5 or more when you incress the denomination.) and coins.
if ou don't like the federal reserve bank, you can always opt out and go get some liberty dollars(backed by silver) instead of cooking up some theory that ranks up there with the 3 foot tall lizard like aliens trying to take over the world and the hollow earth junk.


Do we need central banks? Yes. Do they have to be privately owned? NO. The Fed is privately owned. Period.
In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations, and epochs it is the rule. – Nietzsche

Time makes more converts than reason. – Thomas Paine

History is a set of lies agreed upon. – Napoleon Bonaparte
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Unread postby OilsNotWell » Sun 08 May 2005, 23:29:00

Here, here, someguy. I watched that documentary TWICE. It should be required viewing by all Americans. It is that important and revealing.
There was nothing the least bit outlandish, it was all very straightforward, but the upshot of the totality of it all was DEVASTATING. Quite literally, every American has been CHEATED.

TrueKaiser, watch the video. Do a little reading about it. Seriously.
You'll be "mad as hell and not want to take it anymore!"
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Unread postby OilsNotWell » Sun 08 May 2005, 23:32:14

Do we need central banks? Yes. Do they have to be privately owned? NO. The Fed is privately owned. Period.


Exactly! What's so nutty about not wanting to have a central bank owned by an oligarchy, TK? THAT'S nutty, if you ask me.
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Unread postby some_guy282 » Sun 08 May 2005, 23:40:52

"Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute master of all industry and commerce."
~ James A. Garfield


Most Americans wont recognize Garfield's name. No, he's not that cat from the cartoons. He was a President back in the late 1800's. His term lasted all of two weeks or so. Why? He was assassinated. Here's a short list of US Presidents that opposed a central bank before the Fed, and opposed the Fed after its creation.

Andrew Jackson - attempted assassination.
Lincoln - assassinated.
Garfield - assassinated.
Kennedy - assassinated.

Coincidence?

Andrew Jackson strongly opposed central banks, and killed the first one in the US. Someone tried to kill him but both muskets misfired. Jackson promptly kicked the guy's ass. The wood be assassin later said powerful bankers from Europe put him up to it. Jackson was censured in Congress by politicians bought by bankers. Lincoln learned a valuable lesson about the creation of money to finance the Civil War. He was going to put the final nail in the coffin of privately owned central banks. Instead he was killed, and succesors partially undid the damage caused by Jackson. Garfield's entire platform was reform of the monetary system, and opposition of privately owned central banks. He didn't last long. Woodrow Wilson's entire presidency was thanks to european bankers. Wilson is the one who signed the Federal Reserve into law. He later said it was the biggest mistake of his entire life, and that he had signed the country away to the bankers. Kennedy is the only president I know of who dared to say he was going to get rid of the Federal Reserve after it was created. We all know what happened to him. Magic bullets and a lone gunman.

Right.
In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations, and epochs it is the rule. – Nietzsche

Time makes more converts than reason. – Thomas Paine

History is a set of lies agreed upon. – Napoleon Bonaparte
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Unread postby OilsNotWell » Sun 08 May 2005, 23:44:05

Bingo! We have a winner!
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Unread postby some_guy282 » Sun 08 May 2005, 23:47:24

OilsNotWell wrote:Bingo! We have a winner!


ohmygod! I've never won anything before in my whole life! What did I win? Is it some magic bullet repelant? I think I'll be needing some of that if I keep going around talking about, well, you know... the truth? :razz:
In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations, and epochs it is the rule. – Nietzsche

Time makes more converts than reason. – Thomas Paine

History is a set of lies agreed upon. – Napoleon Bonaparte
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Unread postby OilsNotWell » Sun 08 May 2005, 23:54:51

In best melo-dramatic voice:

"And what do we have for him, Bob?"

"Well, Don, our lucky winner has won:

1) BLANK STARES from the unfortunately ignorant masses, who due to years of constant media manipulation and educational indoctrination, have NO CLUE what you're talking about!

2) HATRED from those who don't WANT to hear the truth! For as we all know, tell someone something they already know, and they will love you for it, but tell them something they don't and they will hate you!"

DING-DING-DING!!!!!!!

"Now, will the lovely and talented Monica please describe to our lucky winner to his special vacation hut in the gulag?"
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Unread postby some_guy282 » Mon 09 May 2005, 00:01:46

Wooooooooohoooooooooooo!!!! :-D :) :-D :)


Blank stares and hatred! YES! Sounds like I'm going to be a celebrity! Kinda like Paris Hilton, only with about 100 more IQ points, and a tiny fraction of the cash? I can dig that, definitely. And all I have to do is say controversial things that are true but don't want to hear? Oh yea baby, I'm in heaven!

Gulag... is that an island in the Bahamas or something? Sounds exotic! I can't wait! :twisted:
In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations, and epochs it is the rule. – Nietzsche

Time makes more converts than reason. – Thomas Paine

History is a set of lies agreed upon. – Napoleon Bonaparte
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Unread postby Specop_007 » Mon 09 May 2005, 03:38:19

some_guy282 wrote:The Federal Reserve IS a private for profit central bank. This topic came up a few days ago, and someone else posted a link to this documentary which I found to be very informative.

http://www.indybay.org/uploads/moneymasters1.wmv

http://www.indybay.org/uploads/moneymasters2.wmv

It's 10 years old, but still gets the point across. Nothing has changed really between then and now. It is 3 and a half hours long, and goes back thousands of years to explain the creation of money, and different type of monetary systems. Current banking systems can be traced back 300 years to the Bank of England, another privately owned bank with a deceptive name. Watch that movie before you make jokes about tin foil hats. Wealthy and powerful men have been working to become wealthier and more powerful since the dawn of time. They hit the jackpot with central banks.


Do you think you could find any worse copies of the movie anywhere? The current ones for download arent poor enough quality......
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Unread postby some_guy282 » Mon 09 May 2005, 05:03:08

Specop_007 wrote: Do you think you could find any worse copies of the movie anywhere? The current ones for download arent poor enough quality......


I agree, it's not the best quality. But you could listen to the video intently like a radio program and not miss anything. If you want an original copy of it, you can get one from www.themoneymasters.com for $19.95+ shipping & handling.

I found the poor video quality to be a little distracting at first myself, but after just listening to it for a little while, I forgot about how bad the video quality was. Besides, 95% of the video is just the camera focused on the narrator with varios backgrounds anyway.
In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations, and epochs it is the rule. – Nietzsche

Time makes more converts than reason. – Thomas Paine

History is a set of lies agreed upon. – Napoleon Bonaparte
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Unread postby OilsNotWell » Mon 09 May 2005, 15:22:08

I like the part in the movie 'Total Recall' (except the fact that AS, son of Nazi SS father, and himself a Nazi and Hitler sympathizer (of course, THAT he wishes to remain hidden...but there is some strong corroboration), former extremely close friend of Kurt Waldheim (remember him?), sexual harasser, and Bilderberg chosen one is in it (strong statements I know, but look it up, I've followed his career for decades)...By the way, duid you know he likely still holds dual Austrian and American citizenship? And some want him to be president? ]....ook, back to the movie....where the mutant in the belly says: "OPEN YOUR MIND!.....OOPPEENNN YOUR MIIIIIIND!!"

"The regional Federal Reserve banks are not government agencies... but are independent privately owned and locally controlled corporations."
—Lewis vs. United States, 680 F.2d 1239 (9th Circuit, 1982)


Funny how no one seems to know what should be well-known, huh?
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Unread postby Ayoob_Reloaded » Mon 09 May 2005, 18:35:31

Buy gold and silver every now and then, and get your hands on some arable land with a good water source.
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Unread postby skiwi » Tue 10 May 2005, 07:33:00

some_guy282 wrote:The Federal Reserve IS a private for profit central bank. This topic came up a few days ago


Fed is privately owned?

There's also a 967mb 3 VCD-ripped avi torrent version of Money Masters being seeded at http://conspiracycentral.net:6969/index.html

and yeah most people need to be enlightened about a lot more than just peak oil :roll:
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Central Bankers: The Worlds biggest scam artists

Unread postby Tapas » Sun 26 Jun 2005, 21:01:19

Imagine this:

You have a small community of 20 men, women and children living in harmony with nature in an isolated island. The adult males are spending their time farming, growing rice and corn, raising livestock, building huts and fishing in the rivers. The women are busy raising their children, cooking, weaving clothes, harvesting the crops while the children are helping the adults in growing, gathering, and building all the essential elements to community life and learning the secrets of survival.

In this primitive culture there is no concept of money. Barter is the method of exchanging goods and services. People are trading bushels of wheat for buckets of freshly caught fish. Women are trading bamboo furniture for hand woven quilts designed by others. It is a closed community based on mutual cooperation and sharing. Every individual is contributing their manual labor to enjoy a fair share of the sum total. Nobody is getting a free ride.

70 years goes by. The population doubles. There are now 40 men, women and children living in this island. Resources are plentiful. The barter system is serving them well. Individuals are still exchanging their goods and getting to enjoy a share of the total.

Then comes an individual with a very clever idea. He introduces the concept of money. He declares what a wonderful idea it would be if instead of trading 1 bag of wheat for 2 fishes, they decide to put a monetary value to all their goods. Just look at the convenience. If you price the bag of wheat for a dollar and the two fishes for a dollar, then it would be considered fair trade to get a bag of wheat if you had a dollar to pay for it, even though you may not have 2 fishes at the very moment.

Similarly, another person is free to get two fishes if he had a dollar in his possession, even though he may not have a bag of wheat to trade upfront.

It all seems like a brilliant idea does it not?

One little problem. Where will these initial dollars come from? The inventor of this plan proclaims he will print all the dollars, as much as necessary, and lend them out at a very low interest of 2%. Any individual is free to borrow as many dollars he wants so long he pays back the principle plus 2%.

The gullible members could not see the outright fraud hidden behind this simple plan. They agree to it. It serves their short term greed. They quickly discover how easy it is to get a bag of wheat just by borrowing a dollar without first having to take the trouble of catching two fishes. This dollar needs to be returned after one year with an additional 2 cents. Big deal they think. After all, they are planning for a large family. They would have additional helping hands to increase the family wealth.

An astute reader will at once note the sinister plan that lies hidden behind this concept.

1. The clever individual who thought of this scheme does not need to do any manual labor at all! He gets to live off the labor of others. He lives off the 2% interest for every dollar that people borrow from him. All he has to do is print these dollars.

2. The population of the community redoubles to 80. The total working potential of the community has increased by a factor of 2. Twice the number of working individuals are now borrowing dollars. As the borrowing amount increases, so does the total debt owed to the clever banker. The larger the population, the richer he gets!

3. All the banker is really doing is keeping log of the energy transfer within this growing community. He is not creating any energy himself. He is simply tracking the flow of energy through an intermediate medium called a dollar. The transfer of energy is real. The dollar is fake. The dollar is merely tracking how the energy is being shared, and used. For each unit of energy being transferred, he is getting a cut.

4. The true source of all energy is the sun. The earth is getting a free share each and every year from the sun. Nobody is paying a penny to the sun to enjoy this energy. It is truly a free gift. Every living creature is entitled to this free gift.

5. The plants are converting this solar energy into food by a process known as photosynthesis. The farmers in the community are harvesting the fields. The livestock are feeding on the plants. The people are raising the chickens, goats and cattle for their meat.
The sunlight is keeping the planktons alive in the oceans. The fishes are surviving eating the planktons. Humans are consuming fishes to feed themselves.

6. Notice, all of these basic life processes are happening without the input of a single fake dollar. Our monetary system is nothing but a superficial fake construct. However, the benefits of the free source of energy - the sun, is being radically skewed by the introduction of money. People with more dollars, get to enjoy more than their fair share of energy.

7. Notice another important thing. Fossil fuels are nothing but stored solar energy - a product of ancient photosynthesis. Individuals who are controlling the oil are getting instant access to a treasure trove of stored energy.

8. As the human population grew from 1 billion to 6.5 billion, not only did the potential for manual work increase 6.5 times, it actually increased by a factor of several hundred once you factor in the energy released from burning about 1 Trillion barrels of oil, coal and natural gas.

9. All this energy transfer has been tracked by a man-made entity called money. The more people expend energy, the more fiat dollars that need to be printed, and higher the debt load of the population that is owed to the central bankers.

10. Money, which should have been used as a convenience and issued by the government, now becomes a sinister tool to enslave the population making them life long debt slaves to the central bankers.

11. In the final end-game, the central bankers takes over every nation and controls the entire wealth of the planet.

12. The game is rigged from start. The concept of usury - I give you a dollar, you give me a dollar plus something is outright fraud and flies against all natural laws. You cannot get more than you give.

13. Ultimately this flawed system has to collapse. This Ponzi scheme is dependent on perpetual growth. The point at where our energy peaks - meaning no more growth, will also mark the beginning of the collapse of our monetary system.
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Unread postby jaws » Sun 26 Jun 2005, 21:23:24

Imagine this:

You have a small community of two men living in harmony with nature in an isolated island. One of them produces coconuts and tools made from seashells. The other one produces fish and tools made from seashells. Since both of them need all three goods to survive, they trade regularly amongst each other. But since they both produce seashells, they begin to 'save' seashells they collect in order to use them for trade later (as seashells don't go bad like fruit or fish). Soon they are doing all their trading in seashells and quote each other fish and coconut prices in seashells.

One day the first man is having an existential crisis. He decides not to work for one day and instead buys fish alone to eat that day. However his savings are too low to pay for all the fish he needs. The second man makes him a deal. "I'll give you thirty seashells of fish for today, but tommorow you must pay me back forty seashells." Still feeling depressed from his existential crisis, the first man agrees.

The next day he goes to work collecting seashells and coconuts, but he can't possibly find 40 quality seashells in one day. He does however collect his usual harvest of coconuts. The two men meet again for trade.

"I'm sorry, I couldn't find enough seashells to repay you friend," says the first man.

"No problem, I will simply take the value of the repayment in coconuts, we will not trade in seashells today," says the second man.

The second man is compensated for his restraint in consumption the previous day by having a much bigger share of the day's output today. The debt is cleared and the economy never had to grow or disrupt the harmony with nature.



Debt to some is savings to other. Interest is price you pay to bring wealth forward through time, to enjoy wealth today at the expense of your future wealth. The opposite is true for the lender. Interest is the price you earn for foregoing wealth today to increase your wealth in the future.

Interest, money and credit can and will exist in any economy.
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Unread postby nznutter » Sun 26 Jun 2005, 21:39:33

Peak oil will rid the world of debt.

Fiat currencys cant survive a collapsing economy.

We will have either a deflationary collapse or a hyperinflationary collapse.

Either rids us of debt either by default in the case of defaltion or by the monetising of debt in the case of hyperinflation.

:twisted:
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...

Unread postby UIUCstudent01 » Sun 26 Jun 2005, 22:02:16

I couldn't but help notice that 2 producers were in Jaws story - there wasn't a person just creating money and lending more of it out than it was possible to repay. And the debt was created and limited by time and resources in the second story.

I think that is the crux of the whole "rebel against the central bankers" thing... and the fact that the bankers get a free ride for doing little to nothing or something. (Everyone dislikes the freeloader.)

Of course, I don't see how money can be abolished. With money, the practice of 'usury' will always be present in one way or another.

-------What follows is my free-flow thoughts---It may be completely wrong, whatever ----------------

Basically, though, it shows that money can be manipulated in such a way that you can basically freeload if you lend people money with interest. If you have enough money that is... Basically, it's a business without producing anything. It's a kind of an advanced form of feudalism where one isn't tied down to land... but currency...

And that's basically a form of control and power. What was power back in feudalism-days? The amount of land and people you had under that land.

But as a middle-class evolved - traders and craftsmen - people could earn a living by not being tied down to land and were 'free' (in those days).

Maybe, the banking is just an evolved form of power? Tieing down the middle-class under control of those in power?
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Re: Central Bankers: The Worlds biggest scam artists

Unread postby ubercynicmeister » Sun 26 Jun 2005, 22:58:56

Hi Tapas. You're right...."banking" and "money" are the two biggest scams on the planet.

"Money", as others have noted here at Peak Oil.com, is actuaslly one of the most truly efficient ways of separating one'sself from one's responsibilities.

if I pay you to go out & kill someone, therefore I am (somehow) "not guilty" because I did not actually pull the trigger. It took the courts a long time to convince those WITH lotsa money that paying someone else to shoot someone was not a way of escaping the law, but the prinbciple satnds.

If I "pay" for some product, even though that product may be innocuous in and of itslef, I and therefore somehow "free of responsibility" for the making of that product, say in a sweat-shop in SE Asia (or other places in the Third World).

This is why the "love of money" is actually the "love of evading or eliminating personal resposibility".

Once the payment has been transacted, one need not have any more to do with the person from whom one has bought the product, and the vendor need not have anything more to do with you. As anyone who has ever purchased faulty goods can tell you.

This is why, even MORE than the Oil-Guzzling Motor vehicle, the love of money has introduced such separation between us humans at the very time when we need the opposite most.

What do I mean?

Well, consider who will be reading the peak oil .com forum. They may well be from every corner of the world...convenient, one might say, but disparate, in other words, thinking (mostly) alike, but so spread apart, geographically speaking, that we cannot get together, except in the most limited of fashions.

Consider the Oil industry - it has a similar wide-spread nature, BUT it can and does get together, because it has to - the oil exists in certain places, therefore if one wants to get at it, one must go there.

And meet. And try to learn to get along.

It's usually those who have the greatest "love of money" who can be most easily placated by the Oil companies, and usually such people have an unnerving habit of having a vast love of power, too. The Love Of Money may well also be described as "Success Worship". Success worship always leads to power worship, in the long term.

Tapas wrote:Then comes an individual with a very clever idea. He introduces the concept of money. He declares what a wonderful idea it would be if instead of trading 1 bag of wheat for 2 fishes, they decide to put a monetary value to all their goods. Just look at the convenience. If you price the bag of wheat for a dollar and the two fishes for a dollar, then it would be considered fair trade to get a bag of wheat if you had a dollar to pay for it, even though you may not have 2 fishes at the very moment.

Similarly, another person is free to get two fishes if he had a dollar in his possession, even though he may not have a bag of wheat to trade upfront.

It all seems like a brilliant idea does it not?


It seems like A CONVENIENT idea...it may, or may not, be seen as brilliant to those upon whom the plan is being foisted.

Most people would prefer to deal directly. Besides allowing a person to inspect the goods, before they trade, it give you a chance to have a natter (ie: have a talk with the other person).

Besides being far more fun than actually doing something, it alloows the average Joe to check out whether the "opposite number" is genuine or not.

The REAL pushers behind fiat currency, which is what you're describing, is the governments, who liked the idea of centralised taxation.


8. As the human population grew from 1 billion to 6.5 billion, not only did the potential for manual work increase 6.5 times, it actually increased by a factor of several hundred once you factor in the energy released from burning about 1 Trillion barrels of oil, coal and natural gas.


I'm now convinced that human population rose NOT because of better food or better medicine, but because of the need by poor people to "pay off" their loans - and the only way they could do that was to have more & more kids.

[quote} 13. Ultimately this flawed system has to collapse. This Ponzi scheme is dependent on perpetual growth. The point at where our energy peaks - meaning no more growth, will also mark the beginning of the collapse of our monetary system.[/quote]

Ponzi schemes are known as "Pyramid marketing schemes" here in Australia. Yup, you're right.

The ONLY way it can keep going is to force poor people to supply the only "currency" they can: children.

Expansion now = survival.

pity when it all stops expanding, eh?
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Re: ...

Unread postby jaws » Sun 26 Jun 2005, 23:12:08

UIUCstudent01 wrote:I couldn't but help notice that 2 producers were in Jaws story - there wasn't a person just creating money and lending more of it out than it was possible to repay. And the debt was created and limited by time and resources in the second story.

I think that is the crux of the whole "rebel against the central bankers" thing... and the fact that the bankers get a free ride for doing little to nothing or something. (Everyone dislikes the freeloader.)

Of course, I don't see how money can be abolished. With money, the practice of 'usury' will always be present in one way or another.

-------What follows is my free-flow thoughts---It may be completely wrong, whatever ----------------

Basically, though, it shows that money can be manipulated in such a way that you can basically freeload if you lend people money with interest. If you have enough money that is... Basically, it's a business without producing anything. It's a kind of an advanced form of feudalism where one isn't tied down to land... but currency...

And that's basically a form of control and power. What was power back in feudalism-days? The amount of land and people you had under that land.

But as a middle-class evolved - traders and craftsmen - people could earn a living by not being tied down to land and were 'free' (in those days).

Maybe, the banking is just an evolved form of power? Tieing down the middle-class under control of those in power?

1) Lending money with interest isn't freeloading. The money you lend are your savings. You worked for them and saved them (or your parents did for you). The interest you collect compensates you for not enjoying the full extent of your wealth.

2) Central banks aren't freeloading by providing nothing. They provide a very valuable and highly demanded good, money, an asset with extremely high liquidity providing a precise measure of value. People want money and need money to conduct transactions to enjoy the full productivity of their work. You try living using only barter. It's just not practical. Central banks answer that need by creating money.

3) The profits made from money creation are always ultimately SPENT. That means that there is no such thing as "lending more of it out than it was possible to repay." The debtor is always in a position to postpone paying back the principal by trading the products of his work. The profits a central bank earns go back to its owners (usually a national government) and are spent (usually in public services).
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Unread postby nznutter » Mon 27 Jun 2005, 03:36:26

Jaws,

Central Banks dont create most money, private banks do that. Central Banks create M1, i.e. printed money that you use when you pay in hard cash. Most other money M2, M3 etc is created by your private bank i.e. citibank etc via the fractional reserve banking system out of thin air.

The fractional reserve banking system is the biggest fraud ever inflicted on human kind. Money is created out of a tiny reserve of savings on a 10 to 1 ratio and then interest charged on the money created.

Imagine if you gave me $10000 and I used it to create a $100000 loan to some poor smug and then charged him interest and only paid you interest for the $10000 deposit. You would call me a fraudster and that is exactly what bankers are!

Those who control the money supply control the economy. That is to much power to put in a politicians or bankers hands.

I am a hard money advocate i.e. silver and gold are true honest money with no shanagans! They cant just be printed into reality like the current USD!
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