THE Wind Power Thread pt 2 (merged)

[pstarr]

Peak wind won't come until at least 5 billion years from now.

Source?

You've been here 9 month and you are still a lonely little turd. Haven't made any friends yet?

[yesplease]

You've been here 9 month and you are still a lonely little turd. Haven't made any friends yet?

Oh no, another post from pstarr with an ad hominem, run for the hills Vogelzang, before it's too late!

[VMarcHart]

You've been here 9 month and you are still a lonely little turd. Haven't made any friends yet?

I thought attacks were against the CoC. Could a moderator please clarify this? Thanks.

[Graeme]

Federal officials back wind energy 'superhighway'

The Federal Energy Regulatory Commission has approved incentives that could help a Michigan company build a 3,000-mile transmission "superhighway" to move wind-generated power out of the Midwest.

Novi, Mich.-based ITC Holdings Corp. filed its rate and incentives application in February. On Monday, FERC approved a 12.38 percent return on investment for the project, which is expected to cost $10 billion to $12 billion.

The "Green Power Express" would surge with 12,000 megawatts of wind-generated power. The extra-high voltage transmission lines would spread across the Dakotas, Minnesota, Iowa, Wisconsin, Illinois and Indiana to deliver wind power to Chicago and points east.

http://www.argusleader.com/article/20090415/NEWS/904150313/1001/news

[TheAntiDoomer]

I don't now whether to feel sorry for p4brains, or just make him a foe.

[dohboi]

Does anyone think that a comment like "peak wind won't come for at least five billion years" is anything other than inane and childish?

[Cabrone]

Peak wind won't come until at least 5 billion years from now.

Well if the scientists who wrote this book are correct it is more like 7 billion years - that's when the earth will fall into a bloated dying sun. Not that any life will see it, the ever heating sun will kill off the biosphere in 500 million -1 billion years (according to these guys anyway). Mars may be nice at that time though.

As for the original question the answer is yes, most definately it could but whether it will is a different question.

As someone who lives on a grossly overcrowded (although quite fertile) island about the size of florida I envy the potential renewable resource that the US has.

You have 2 huge coastlines which could supply you with wave\tidal\wind, a big wind corridor up the central plains, a potentially massive biomass resource and finally a whopping great solar resource down in the south west. I'd also like to add that to the North is a sparsely populated yet huge country with large hydro\biomass resource and to the south is a country with massive solar potential.

In terms of raw energy you are swamped in renewable resource - what are you waiting for?

[yesplease]

The combined power generating capacity of new U.S. wind turbines installed last year hit more than 9,900 megawatts, up from a gain of over 8,400 MW in the previous year.

Link.


Not only did wind power grow during the worst recession in over a half century, but it increased it's rate of growth by almost 20%. Pretty impressive IMO.

[Revi]

I talked to a friend who is anti-windpower because he thinks it's too noisy. He knows about peak oil and is an environmentalist.

I think we are going to need all the wind power we can get and soon.

We have at least 5 new projects here in Maine.

I think we have the space and the wind to run a lot of our grid on wind and hydro, so we may be able to keep the lights on at least.

[shortonsense]

I talked to a friend who is anti-windpower because he thinks it's too noisy. He knows about peak oil and is an environmentalist.

I think we are going to need all the wind power we can get and soon.

I agree, primarily because of the coming electrification of transport which is finally being supported by the auto manufacturers. Until such economies of scale are realized,its difficult to think that a small manufacturer here or there can provide the sort of leverage needed to put the House of Saud out of business, long term.

[yesplease]

Lots of EVs/PHEVs make wind power's market penetration much higher since they can provide ~8-12 hour windows for storage at home, and more if people start plugging in at home. Course, the DOE estimated we could hit ~300GW (~20% of generation) w/ modest improvements to transmission I don't think we'll need them to expand wind power until we get a few decades down the road.

[shortonsense]

Course, the DOE estimated we could hit ~300GW (~20% of generation) w/ modest improvements to transmission I don't think we'll need them to expand wind power until we get a few decades down the road.

Have you seen some of these windfarms Yes?

I was tooling along south of Amarillo a few weeks back and ran into a huge windfarm down that'a way. Huge. Turbines off to the horizon. I remember years and years ago when I first saw the Mohave farms and thought they were pretty neat, nowadays, these projects are just huge. The people building them nowadays sure ain't thinkin small.

Viva La Transition!

[TheDude]

Eco-Economy Indicators - Wind Power | EPI

[sjn]

Eco-Economy Indicators - Wind Power | EPI

Not only did wind power grow during the worst recession in over a half century, but it increased it's rate of growth by almost 20%. Pretty impressive IMO.

That certainly doesn't look like a 20% increase in the rate of growth 2008-2009 for the US???

[TheAntiDoomer]

[quote="TheDude"]

Eco-Economy Indicators - Wind Power | EPI[/quote

I think yespleases data is more up to date

[sjn]

There's actually something very suspicious with the opening link, it reports jobs lost in wind manufacturing, but compensated for by more jobs in maintainance, whilst financing was "tight":

Denise Bode, chief executive of AWEA, said jobs stalled because of tight financing and uncertainty about wind power incentives, including long-term tax credits and a national mandate for renewable energy.

She said President Barack Obama's recovery act that set aside billions of dollars for renewable energy helped prevent job losses. Some 1,500 to 2,000 jobs were lost in wind power manufacturing, but those jobs were made up for with gains in construction and maintenance at wind power farms, she said.

Does this sound like a recipe for an increased rate of growth? I'm very much in favour of wind power generation, although I'm of the opinion maximum final capacity is limited by availability of suitable sites, rather than being capable of unbounded exponential growth as some others on this site have claimed. I do however think there may be some significance to these two differing reports on the rate of capacity expansion, perhaps there's more on paper (planned/approved expansion) than actually took place due to the reported contraction in the manufacturing of turbines?

[Plantagenet]

Super-ruggedized wind turbines based on designs done for the US Antarctic base in McMurdo are being installed along the Arctic coast of Alaska to power some of the small and remote Aleut villages.

They are performing excellently. Here is a photo of the Kasigluk project here in Alaska.

[TheDude]

The Alaskan bush is a great choice for wind power.



From the AWEA, who ought to know: AWEA Q4 and Year-End Report Release

“The U.S. wind energy industry shattered all installation records in 2009, chalking up the Recovery Act as a historic success in creating jobs, avoiding carbon, and protecting consumers,” said AWEA CEO Denise Bode. “But U.S. wind turbine manufacturing – the canary in the mine -- is down compared to last year’s levels, and needs long-term policy certainty and market pull in order to grow. We need to set hard targets, in the form of a national Renewable Electricity Standard (RES), in order to provide the necessary stability for manufacturers to expand their U.S. operations and to seize the historic opportunity we have today to build up a thriving renewable energy industry.”

Early last year, before the Recovery Act (ARRA), the industry anticipated that in 2009 wind power development might drop by as much as 50% from 2008 levels, with equivalent job losses. The clear commitment by the President to create clean energy jobs and the swift implementation of ARRA incentives by the Administration in mid-summer reversed the situation. Recovery Act incentives spurred the growth of construction, operations and maintenance, and management jobs, helping the industry to save and create jobs in those sectors and shine as a bright spot in the economy.

So we have reckless piling on of debt to thank for wind making it to this stage. Wind power grew in 2009, but 2010 will be a bigger test | FT Energy Source | FT.com

January 26, 2010 5:00pm
by Sheila McNulty

Wind power surged ahead in 2009, breaking all previous records by installing over 9,900 megawatts of new generating capacity in 2009. That is enough to serve over 2.4m homes and expanded the nation’s wind plant fleet by 39 per cent, bringing total wind power generating capacity in the US to over 35,000 megawatts. But do not read too much into those headline-grabbing facts.

Total manufacturing investment dropped compared to 2008, with one-third fewer online, announced and expanded wind power manufacturing facilities in 2009. That resulted in job losses in the sector.

[yesplease]

Eco-Economy Indicators - Wind Power | EPI

Not only did wind power grow during the worst recession in over a half century, but it increased it's rate of growth by almost 20%. Pretty impressive IMO.

That certainly doesn't look like a 20% increase in the rate of growth 2008-2009 for the US???

The graph is using old data (circa Dec 2009, maybe earlier). As of Jan 2010, installed capacity was ~9,900MW last year.

[yesplease]

There's actually something very suspicious with the opening link, it reports jobs lost in wind manufacturing, but compensated for by more jobs in maintainance, whilst financing was "tight":

It's suspicious that more wind turbines require more people to maintain them, do you think that more wind turbines should require fewer people to maintain them? Manufacturing/sales are worldwide, so I'm not sure if a drop in local manufacturing will impact expansion much. Even if we "stall" at ~10GW/year, we'll hit 20% wind power, enough to power 200 million PHEV/EV cars all year, by ~2025-2030.

Does this sound like a recipe for an increased rate of growth? I'm very much in favour of wind power generation, although I'm of the opinion maximum final capacity is limited by availability of suitable sites, rather than being capable of unbounded exponential growth as some others on this site have claimed.

Who said wind power was capable of unbounded exponential growth? Anyhoo, nothing is, it's a total red herring. Whether or not wind continues to grow past ~10GW/year really depends on renewable mandates and the PTC. Credit's big, but not as big as those two AFAIK.

I do however think there may be some significance to these two differing reports on the rate of capacity expansion, perhaps there's more on paper (planned/approved expansion) than actually took place due to the reported contraction in the manufacturing of turbines?

Fer sure there's some significance. One included all of 2009, the other didn't include all of 2009. No one counts anything until it's up AFAIK, it's just that the earlier report missed the usual push in installed capacity at the end of the year.