THE EEStor Thread (merged)

[BigTex]

liammmcglynn, how long have you been aware of peak oil?

Since becoming aware of it, what books have you read concerning the topic of peak oil and the larger cluster of topics peak oil touches on, including overshoot and die-off, technology as a secular religion, fallacies of modern economic thought, etc.?

Just curious where you are on the learning curve.

It takes a while for it all to sink in.

[liammcglynn]

liammmcglynn, how long have you been aware of peak oil?

Since becoming aware of it, what books have you read concerning the topic of peak oil and the larger cluster of topics peak oil touches on, including overshoot and die-off, technology as a secular religion, fallacies of modern economic thought, etc.?

Just curious where you are on the learning curve.

It takes a while for it all to sink in.

It has been a very long time for me. I have a friend, Frank Kaminski who is an avid Peak Oil advocate. He has reviewed a number of books on the subject. I would guess that I introduced Frank to the subject almost ten years ago and I had been following it for perhaps a few years before that. I have read parts of Kunstler and Simmons but my research has focused on internet data sources.

As for economic thought, I struggled with Classical and Keynesian theories while at MIT. These frameworks lacked symmetry. Peter Schiff's "Crash Proof" struck a chord with me. Though the Austrian School of Economics is not perfect, their aversion to government intervention in the markets and fiat currency led me to a deeper understanding of global trade and exchange rates and this formed the foundation for personal revelations on the flaws in US economic policy. I have also read a number of papers by John Williams (http://www.shadowstats.com). I am an analyst by training, profession, and nature, so I thrive on critical thinking, accepting very little at face value. I see the economy and Peak Oil as major threats to my well being. My initial objective is to prepare for consequences according to a combination of likelihood and impact. In the economy, I view hyperinflation, a devastating crisis, as sufficiently probable to warrant countermeasures. With Peak Oil, I find complacency almost infuriating given the unimpeachable logic of a pending collapse in supply. I am less prepared for the oil crisis than inflation.

Finally, I feel selfish. Assuming that I prepare successfully for the coming crises, I cannot help but view the suffering of others as some kind of failure on my part. Did they fail to listen or did I fail to impress? Did I even try?

Sorry for rambling.

[TheAntiDoomer]

liammmcglynn, how long have you been aware of peak oil?

Since becoming aware of it, what books have you read concerning the topic of peak oil and the larger cluster of topics peak oil touches on, including overshoot and die-off, technology as a secular religion, fallacies of modern economic thought, etc.?

Just curious where you are on the learning curve.

It takes a while for it all to sink in.

BigTex, your post seems to imply that if one reads and is aware of all the issues you just mentioned and does not come to the conclusion that a dieoff/collapse is inevetible is wrong? I feel I am well educated on the subject and do not believe in dieoff or collapse. Would like you to clarify this position.
thanks.

[pstarr]

TheAntiDoomer, I will do that for you. Here is what the gentlemen said:

I know that we cannot stop or even slow the coming oil crisis and the unfathomable impact on the global food supply but . . .

That pretty much speaks for itself. Hum?

Let's move on. [BigTex: edited for decorum]

[TheAntiDoomer]

TheAntiDoomer, I will do that for you. Here is what the gentlemen said:

I know that we cannot stop or even slow the coming oil crisis and the unfathomable impact on the global food supply but . . .

That pretty much speaks for itself. Hum?

Now move on troll

Mods, clear COC violation here by pstarr, I will leave it at that and let you choose his punishment, as I will not retaliate to his stooped level.

and no pstarr I disagree with liammcglynns quote and I asked bigtex not you, thanks for playing though.

[BigTex]

BigTex, your post seems to imply that if one reads and is aware of all the issues you just mentioned and does not come to the conclusion that a dieoff/collapse is inevetible is wrong? I feel I am well educated on the subject and do not believe in dieoff or collapse. Would like you to clarify this position.
thanks.

I asked a question. I didn't imply anything.

If I believed that die-off and collapse was the only potential future scenario I wouldn't have started a magic battery thread.

I hope EEStor works out.

[mos6507]

CityZenn is dead. Like I said, Zenn is now just a middle-man looking to extract profit from their deal with EESTOR. They were opportunists who have little value to add to the mix.

[liammcglynn]

CityZenn is dead. Like I said, Zenn is now just a middle-man looking to extract profit from their deal with EESTOR. They were opportunists who have little value to add to the mix.

Mos, you may well be correct. Zenn is both an investor and manufacturer so it should be able to derive profits in either role. Investor profits will likely be superior. Given the claims of EEStor, I would expect an associated auto manufacturer to be more aggressive. If EEStor is real and you and I were in charge of Zenn, wouldn't we be planning to take over the US auto market (once oil prices inevitably climb)? I don't sense that kind of feral aggression in Zenn's position. Thus, your conclusion, though not certain, has merit.

I will be very interested to see the final figures on power density as they will, to the greatest extent, determine the applicability of the technology. Automobiles are just the beginning.

[sparky]

.
It's weird how you guys are focused on transportation ,
the holy grail of energy storage would be a couple of Gigawatts for a week
it could make the grid base load open for funky alternative
wind power badly need it ,solar even more .

that's for BigTex

Somebody finally who talk megawatts ,
there was mention of this on PBS
a high power battery

http://www.physorg.com/news155569564.html


I think this is the patent


High energy density fused salt battery and cathode for use therein
United States Patent 3963516

Abstract:
A composite cathode comprising an integral matrix of about 20 to 80% by weight current collector material which is electronic or semiconducting in nature, preferably carbon, and about 80 to 20% by weight metal sulfide, preferably antimony sulfide. The high energy density battery comprises said composite cathode in spaced apart relation to a LiAl alloy anode, and a molten LiCl--KCl electrolyte in contact with the cathode and anode.

[JRP3]

.
It's weird how you guys are focused on transportation ,
the holy grail of energy storage would be a couple of Gigawatts for a week
it could make the grid base load open for funky alternative
wind power badly need it ,solar even more .

Stationary storage is relatively easy compared to mobile since there is no real weight or size concern.
http://www.warren.usyd.edu.au/bulletin/NO44/ed44art4.html
Lead acid home systems have worked well for years, or nickel iron, or flow batteries, the new liquid batteries look interesting.

[mos6507]

Lead acid home systems have worked well for years

Bullcrap. Existing off-grid battery options for joe public suck, and are a big reason why the few people who do install renewables go grid-tie with net-metering.

[rangerone314]

Lead acid home systems have worked well for years

Bullcrap. Existing off-grid battery options for joe public suck, and are a big reason why the few people who do install renewables go grid-tie with net-metering.

They ARE expensive. A set of lead acid forklift batteries suitable for home use costs like $5,000 and is really heavy.

[Revi]

I don't believe in having a lot of batteries.

This EEstor thing is a great idea, if it actually works.

[JRP3]

Lead acid home systems have worked well for years

Bullcrap. Existing off-grid battery options for joe public suck, and are a big reason why the few people who do install renewables go grid-tie with net-metering.

Don't tell that to the thousands of people living off grid with wind and solar for years. Not saying they are perfect by any means but properly sized and maintained they can last for 10+ years.

[mos6507]

Don't tell that to the thousands of people living off grid with wind and solar for years.

Thousands of off-gridders in a country of 300+ million people pretty much says it all. It wouldn't only be mere thousands if batteries were better.

[mos6507]

They ARE expensive. A set of lead acid forklift batteries suitable for home use costs like $5,000 and is really heavy.

Is that with or without shipping costs? You pretty much NEED a forklift to move those batteries, don't you? It must be like moving a player piano into your house.

Anyway, if you do the math, that's $41 a month spread out over 10 years, assuming you really get 10 years out of them. Then it's lather, rinse, and repeat. It's not that hard to keep your electric bill at or below $41 bucks, and that's JUST for the batteries, not turbines and/or PV array.

The least one could ask for is the up front expense on a renewable system to be a one-time-only thing. That would be true of PV and inverter, but not the battery bank.

Something like EESTOR would really help there.

[sparky]

.

Thanks JRP3 , fascinating link ,I bookmarked it .

mos6507 , one only need a pallet forklift , the manual version can move tons on level ground

.

.

[JRP3]

Mos, I don't understand the concern about battery weight in a home system. Do you worry about how much the blocks in your basement weigh, or the concrete? How often do you think you'll be moving your battery bank around? It's not an issue. I'm also not sure where you get that $5000 price tag. 16 225ah 6 volt Trojans will give you a 48 volt 21.6kwh pack for about $2400, which gives you 10kwh at less than 50% DOD, and by shallow cycling they would have a very long life. If you're careful and worked to keep your usage low you could cut the pack size and price in half.

[yesplease]

Thousands of off-gridders in a country of 300+ million people pretty much says it all. It wouldn't only be mere thousands if batteries were better.

I've gotta say, this is the first logical fallcy I notice you use, which is pretty impressive for this forum. But back OT, grid-tie is dominant because of the nature of consruction. If I could get back the thousands of dollars it cost to connect my house to the grid, I would be inclined to consider battery storage, but as it stands people can't get that money back, so they go with grid-tied installs.

[mos6507]

by shallow cycling they would have a very long life..

Is a battery that is never used, still a battery? A battery is there presumably to be used. Avoiding going over a certain DOD, or firing up a gas or diesel generator occasionally to top it off, is all part of why they suck and why it's holding back off-grid and EV adoption.

You're not going to get that kind of admission from off-grid and EV advocates due to selection bias.