International Climate Negotiations Pt. 1 (merged)

[Plantagenet]

Countries in the Eu and Canada and Australia all signed Kyoto I and BROKE THEIR COMMITMENTS.

Whats the point of even talking about Kyoto II if European countries and Canada and Australia are just going to sign it and then sneak away and cheat again?

[gerrywolff]

Countries in the Eu and Canada and Australia all signed Kyoto I and BROKE THEIR COMMITMENTS.

Whats the point of even talking about Kyoto II if European countries and Canada and Australia are just going to sign it and then sneak away and cheat again?

There would be no national targets and so that opportunity for cheating would be removed.

[Plantagenet]

Countries in the Eu and Canada and Australia all signed Kyoto I and BROKE THEIR COMMITMENTS.

Whats the point of even talking about Kyoto II if European countries and Canada and Australia are just going to sign it and then sneak away and cheat again?

There would be no national targets and so that opportunity for cheating would be removed.

You don't know much about human nature and greed if you think there won't be any cheating.

Who will run the global carbon exchange....the same honest and incorruptible folks at the UN who ran the "oil for food" program?

[gerrywolff]

Countries in the Eu and Canada and Australia all signed Kyoto I and BROKE THEIR COMMITMENTS.

Whats the point of even talking about Kyoto II if European countries and Canada and Australia are just going to sign it and then sneak away and cheat again?

There would be no national targets and so that opportunity for cheating would be removed.

You don't know much about human nature and greed if you think there won't be any cheating.

Who will run the global carbon exchange....the same honest and incorruptible folks at the UN who ran the "oil for food" program?

Of course people will try to cheat the system. That is true of any system.

[Ludi]

CO2 reduction? Ain't gonna happen except with a global economic collapse from which we never recover.

[Plantagenet]

Countries in the Eu and Canada and Australia all signed Kyoto I and BROKE THEIR COMMITMENTS.

Whats the point of even talking about Kyoto II if European countries and Canada and Australia are just going to sign it and then sneak away and cheat again?

There would be no national targets and so that opportunity for cheating would be removed.

You don't know much about human nature and greed if you think there won't be any cheating.

Who will run the global carbon exchange....the same honest and incorruptible folks at the UN who ran the "oil for food" program?

Of course people will try to cheat the system. That is true of any system.

We've seen that Australia, Canada and most of the EU countries cheat at this kind of thing from their failure to keep their commitments made under Kyoto I. China and India have strongly expressed their opposition to any attempt to prevent them from modernizing (i.e. building coal-fired electrical plants and highways and transitioning their huge populations to the automobile).

What mechanisms will prevent these countries (and others) from cheating under Kyoto II?

[bodigami]

CO2 reduction? Ain't gonna happen except with a global economic collapse from which we never recover.

...which is right on schedule.

[cualcrees]

"• Shell could help shape post-Kyoto agenda
• Majority of attending firms want 'business as usual'"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009 ... ters-shell

[Vogelzang]

I'm glad Shell is standing up for what is right. BTW, I just got my quarterly dividends from Shell and BP.

[SeaGypsy]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009 ... =australia


"Copenhagen talks stagnate as protests turn violent The Australian Government has been accused of accounting fraud in the reporting of its carbon emissions.

By ignoring a massive rise in polluting gases from the agricultural and forestry industries, Australia has managed to make its overall emissions seem much lower than they actually are.

Under the Kyoto Protocol, Australia is allowed to increase carbon emissions by 8 per cent compared to 1990 levels.

But figures supplied to the United Nations earlier this year show that between 1990 and 2007, Australia's real carbon emissions actually rose by 82 per cent. "

[kiwichick]

good one sg

mother nature bats last

[yeahbut]

By ignoring a massive rise in polluting gases from the agricultural and forestry industries, Australia has managed to make its overall emissions seem much lower than they actually are.

Forestry is an interesting one re emissions. We are up against this in New Zealand too, because of our large forestry sector, but the way emissions are evaluated seems strange to me. A forest is considered a carbon sink while it is standing, but a CO2 emitter as soon as it is felled. However, depending on the uses the resulting timber is put to, the CO2 contained within it may not be released for a very long time. In the meantime, another crop of trees is planted, which will again sequester CO2. Surely this should be taken into account when calculating forestry emissions? Why are forestry industries regarded as net emitters?

[SeaGypsy]

By ignoring a massive rise in polluting gases from the agricultural and forestry industries, Australia has managed to make its overall emissions seem much lower than they actually are.

Forestry is an interesting one re emissions. We are up against this in New Zealand too, because of our large forestry sector, but the way emissions are evaluated seems strange to me. A forest is considered a carbon sink while it is standing, but a CO2 emitter as soon as it is felled. However, depending on the uses the resulting timber is put to, the CO2 contained within it may not be released for a very long time. In the meantime, another crop of trees is planted, which will again sequester CO2. Surely this should be taken into account when calculating forestry emissions? Why are forestry industries regarded as net emitters?

Because approximately a third of the logged trees are 'waste' which ends up getting burned; usually with no yeild at all. Also the by product of wasted undergrowth, it all adds up. NZ at least treats it's forests with respect; having done helicopter lifts of logs for 20 odd years. Australia still does strip logging and pretends it has replaced complex old forests by letting the eucalyptus grow back.

[rangerone314]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34412503/ns/us_news-environment

COPENHAGEN - China, India and other developing nations boycotted U.N. climate talks on Monday, bringing negotiations to a halt with their demand that rich countries discuss much deeper cuts in their greenhouse gas emissions.

Representatives from developing countries — a bloc of 135 nations — said they refused to participate in any formal working groups at the 192-nation summit until the issue was resolved.

I agree with the developing countries, the rich countries need to make deeper cuts in their greenhouse emissions. In fact, I think there should be penalties associated if the rich countries don't follow through.

Just like the developing countries should make deep cuts in their populations (not cuts in population growth, cuts in populations). And there should be penalties if THEY don't follow through.

If the rich countries need more Prius's and less Hummers, maybe the developing countries need more condoms and less chainsaws.

[dukey]

thank god for that. The green movement is basically a eugenics cult. Giving politicians the ability to control the very gas we exhale is just a recipe for a nightmare style police state worse than anything Orwell could dream up.

[Niagara]

Just like the developing countries should make deep cuts in their populations (not cuts in population growth, cuts in populations). And there should be penalties if THEY don't follow through.

Deep cuts in their populations? What, you mean euthanasia?

[rangerone314]

thank god for that. The green movement is basically a eugenics cult. Giving politicians the ability to control the very gas we exhale is just a recipe for a nightmare style police state worse than anything Orwell could dream up.

Tough choice:

Bartertown or Oceania



Also politicians shouldn't just get "the ability to control the very gas we exhale". The very gas we fart out (methane) is a more dangerous greenhouse gas ounce for ounce.

[rangerone314]

Just like the developing countries should make deep cuts in their populations (not cuts in population growth, cuts in populations). And there should be penalties if THEY don't follow through.

Deep cuts in their populations? What, you mean euthanasia?

How about 1 family/1 child? Especially for countries like Bangledesh.

Attrition should work just fine, especially with lower life expectancy in 3rd world.

[Ludi]

The US should have to make the deepest cuts of any nation. With only about 5% of the world's population, we use about 25% of the Earth's resources. The US needs to cut its resource use to 1/5 of current levels just to be fair, and we don't know if that's sustainable.

[rangerone314]

The US should have to make the deepest cuts of any nation. With only about 5% of the world's population, we use about 25% of the Earth's resources. The US needs to cut its resource use to 1/5 of current levels just to be fair, and we don't know if that's sustainable.

What do the following figures tell you about the root cause of each country's problems?

.......................%world's arable land.....%CO2 emissions......%population
United States.....12.8%...........................20.2%...........................4.53%
China...................7.6% ..........................21.5%.........................19.62%

US uses over 57% too much energy in relation to its arable land, and that energy use is not because of excess population, but because of excess per capita usage/waste.

China uses over 182% too much energy in relation to its arable land, and that energy is because of excess population. China's share of world population should be closer to 500 million based on its share of arable land.

I hear the 3rd world bitching justifiably about rich countries using too much energy, but I hear little about birthcontrol pills and condoms.